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  • The Cases Against Signing Antonio Bastardo Long-Term


    Seth Stohs

    Many wonder why the Minnesota Twins haven’t signed lefty-reliever Antonio Bastardo. Similar to Tony Sipp, who re-signed with the Astros for three years and $18 million, Bastardo remains unsigned. He is said to be looking for a similar contract. So, why haven’t the Twins been said to be in the conversation, at least not heavily?

    There are a few good, legitimate reasons. Some good reasons involving Bastardo, and several more good reasons because of other, internal options.

    Although Bastardo has struck out 11 batters per nine innings, he also has walked 4.3 batters per nine innings. That’s a lot of strikeouts, but it’s also a lot of walks.

    Image courtesy of Rick Osentoski, USA Today

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    Per Doogie Wolfson in his most recent episode of The Scoops on 1500 ESPN’s podcast network, the Twins are certainly monitoring the Bastardo situation. Wolfson said he has been told by those in the know that the Twins are interested in Bastardo at one year and $3-4 million.

    As a Twins fan who also keeps fairly close tabs on the minor leagues, I fully support this decision. First, walks bug me. I like strikeouts as much as anyone, but walks annoy me. Bastardo is entertaining to watch as he can be completely dominant at times, but at other times he can be equally frustrating.

    The nature of relief pitchers is such that you never really know what you’re going to get. Tony Sipp was a great example of that. He was mediocre at best in his first six seasons, with Cleveland. But in his two years with the Astros, he has been very good.

    Bastardo’s career can be summarized simply by looking at his ERA+ in his six full seasons with the Pirates. Since 2010, his ERA+ have been 96, 146, 94, 163, 95, and then 129 in 2015. Of course, we know that ERA isn’t necessarily the best way to note how a reliever pitches. His FIP (Fielding Independent Pitching) numbers have been between 2.76 and 3.34 in those years.

    I’d be fine with the Twins signing Antonio Bastardo, but I personally agree that a one-year deal is more ideal than a three year deal. In fact, I would make the case that I’d be fine with a one year, $7 million deal rather than a three year, $18 million deal. And, as much as we (many Twins fans) just want the Twins to sign Bastardo because we are comfortable with a three year, $18 million deal. The other thing to remember is that no team has been willing to offer him the three year, $18 million contract that he is said to be looking for.

    The other reason that I feel fully comfortable with the Twins saying they are willing to only go one year on Bastardo is because, as someone who follows the team’s farm system, there are some high-upside, power arms coming and soon.

    Last week, Wolfson tweeted, “Radcliff sites Reed, Chargois, Burdi, Rogers, Melotakis, Landa, as all being close. On Landa, ‘Will open eyes this spring.’”

    While I believe that Landa has incredible upside because he throws upper-90s gas, I would be surprised if he was ready before mid-2017. The others? I think all five of those are guys who could be ready by mid-season 2016.

    • I think Taylor Rogers is ready for a reliever role in the Twins bullpen right away. The main reason to start him in AAA would just be to get him used to working in the bullpen after starting his entire career.
    • The hope was that Nick Burdi might be ready last year. He really struggled, but then came on strong late in the season and continued that domination in the Arizona Fall League. He made some adjustment, and threw more strikes. He may be given a shot at an Opening Day roster spot, but I would think he could be up before June 1.
    • JT Chargois missed all of the 2013 and 2014 seasons with elbow issues and eventually Tommy John surgery. He returned to Instructional League after the 2014 season and was hitting triple-digits. In his return in 2015, he was throwing in the upper-90s, occasionally hitting 100. He spent half of the season in Ft. Myers, and then was the closer through most of the second half of the season for the Lookouts.The former 2nd rounder, who was co-closer at Rice with Tyler Duffey, will also be given a real opportunity to make the Opening Day roster. Like Burdi, it’s more likely that he begins the season in the minor leagues, but he could be up in the season’s first couple of months.
    • Mason Melotakis is another left-hander who may not be far off. He missed all of 2015 due to Tommy John surgery, but reports from Instructs after the season had him hitting 97 again. He was a college reliever who was given the opportunity to start. However, four starts into his 2014 season, he was moved back to the bullpen full time. While I think the Twins will (and should) be cautious with him early in the season, he could prove ready after the All Star break.
    • Jake Reed struggled in his first full minor league season in 2015. The Twins had him start in AA, and he struggled. He went down to Ft. Myers (a level he had skipped) and did well and was quickly back with the Lookouts. He was tremendous in the Arizona Fall League as well. He will likely start the season in AA again, but is a guy who could be ready before the season is over. I would guess he will debut early in 2017, but certainly is feasible in 2016 as well.
    • Yorman Landa is the sixth guy that Wolfson said that Radcliff mentioned. Again, he frequently hit 97-98 mph with his fastball. But he missed the first half of 2015 and a bunch of time in 2014 after shoulder surgery. He dominated at Cedar Rapids, but he has a ways to go. I would say the earliest he’d be ready would be by mid-2017.

    When I mentioned this to Wolfson, he added this tweet, “Radcliff told me they have 13 arms that have a good chance to be here by, at latest, mid-2017. Didn’t realize it was that high.”

    So, being me, I had to do a little research. Could I add seven names to the six mentioned above? Of course, when we hear that 13 arms could be ready by mid-2017, it’s important to remember that there are generally only seven or eight arms in a big league bullpen. So, while I have no problem with the statement, we also need to realize that opportunity also comes into play. In other words, we won’t likely see 13 arms before then. But who all could Radcliff be referring to?

    I’m going to assume that guys like Ryan Pressly, Michael Tonkin and JR Graham are among the 13. Pressly was part of the Twins bullpen when his season came to an end in mid-summer. He was pitching well. Michael Tonkin has been up and down, literally, a dozen times in the last three years. He is now out of options, so he will have to stick or be potentially claimed by another team. JR Graham spent all of 2015 with the Twins after they used the Rule 5 pick on him. He had the biggest arm in the Twins bullpen last year, but was still learning to pitch in the bullpen. He’s likely to spend a lot of time in Rochester in 2016.

    With those three added to the first six, that gives us nine. Let’s see if we can find another four or more. No problem.

    • Alex Meyer - 2015 is over. 2016 is a new year. It’s a big year for Meyer, but the talent and potential are still there. He will come to spring training with an opportunity to make the team. If not, he could be a guy who comes up quick if he pitches more like he did in 2014 than 2015.
    • Corey Williams - Williams missed all of 2014 due to Tommy John surgery. He returned in June of 2015 and pitched well, getting back to AA. He hits 93 and 94, and could add a bit more in 2016. He’s also known as having a great slider. He is certainly one to watch.
    • Logan Darnell - He struggled early in his transition to the bullpen, but he can be a lefty-reliever option, or at least a long-relief option.
    • Pat Dean - Somewhat controversial when he was added to the 40 man roster, Dean had a terrific 2015 season in Rochester. Though he tops out at 90, he has a good slider and curveball and could be an option as a reliever.
    • Luke Bard - Fought injuries and went through a few surgeries since being drafted, but Luke Bard finally was healthy in the second half of 2015. The Twins kept him in Cedar Rapids, but he could move quickly in 2016. He throws hard and has a strong three-pitch mix. He is definitely a sleeper for me in 2016.
    • Jason Adam - He missed all of 2015 with elbow surgery, but the right-hander was a Top 10 prospect in the Royals system just a couple of years ago. If he can return to form, he is certainly one to monitor this year.
    • Trevor Hildenberger - He was our choice as Twins minor league relief pitcher of the year in 2015. He began the season dominating in Cedar Rapids, and fared well in Ft. Myers upon his promotion. He also pitched very well in the Arizona Fall League. The side-winder throws harder than most sidearm throwers, but also has confidence in three pitches in any count.
    • Brandon Peterson - The Minnesota native was our choice for Twins minor league reliever of the year in 2014. He pitched in Ft. Myers and Chattanooga in 2015. At one point, he went 25 innings without allowing a run.

    There are eight names, so we’re already past 13 arms. Here are a few more:

    • DJ Baxendale - He has been a starter most of his minor league career, but with a low-90s fastball and a good slider, he could be a solid bullpen option going forward.
    • Michael Cederoth - Though the Twins had the hard-thrower starting in 2014 and 2015, he could move back to the bullpen. In college he pitched in relief and topped 100 on occasions. In the bullpen, he could move quickly.
    • Alex Wimmers - The former first-round pick has been OK in the bullpen. He can become a minor league free agent following the 2016 season if he’s not on the 40 man roster, so I expect he’ll go to AAA and then we’ll see.
    • Cole Johnson - like AJ Achter, Cole Johnson was drafted in a round that no longer exists, but he has moved up the system and got to AAA in 2015.
    • Brett Lee - Another guy who has started through his career. He’s a low strikeout guy as a starter, but his stuff is good, so maybe in a bullpen role, he could thrive.
    • Alex Muren - a ground ball machine, Muren spent some time in Chattanooga in 2015. He was said to be consistently in the mid-90s in 2015.

    So, as you’re reading those names, you can judge for yourself the level of likelihood that each is going to be ready to contribute to the Twins by mid-2017. Some are probably 90% likely. Others may be closer to 10% But I think that Radcliff’s comment that there are 13 guys who could be ready by mid-2017 is more than fair.

    And, I chose not to include JO Berrios, Tyler Jay, Stephen Gonsalves, Randy Rosario, Fernando Romero, Aaron Slegers, Kohl Stewart and Lewis Thorpe would all remain starters for the next two years.

    And that brings us back to Bastardo and the Twins willingness to go one year on him or any other reliever. In my mind, it makes sense to offer him the one year. In fact, I’d be fine with offering him more for that one year just to stay away from a multi-year deal.

    So, what do you think?

    Be sure to follow Doogie Wolfson on Twitter and listen to his podcast, The Scoops, on the 1500 ESPN network.

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    I hear and read this a lot on this site. I would love to know what you believe other teams are working on that we are not working oh

    This kind of reminds me in movies when someone is talking about someone and they are standing behind them and listening!

     

    But to your question, I can only go off of the information that I have access to. So I don't know what you are working on or what other teams are. I am only privvy to what I see in media reports and hear when our GM speaks.

     

    Based on the Beradino article I linked to earlier in the thread, he said you founded the analytics department in 2009. If that is accurate, the Twins were behind the curve in terms of years. Oakland was in the late 90's, Boston was purchased by an algorithmic trader in 2002 who immediately put an analytic stamp on that team.

     

    Our current GM and manager until a year ago have always sounded skeptical towards SABR metrics. That has been well documented.

     

    The last thing I have to go off is a ranking that ESPN did where they ranked all the teams in baseball based on their use of analysis. They ranked the Twins 3rd lowest in the league, noting the skepticism from Ryan and Gardy.

     

    With that I would be more than happy to get your take on how the Twins have been characterized on this topic and whether it is fair or not. It would be very interesting to me

     

    http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12331388/the-great-analytics-rankings

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    That's not a legitimate concern.

    In all seriousness...do you feel the bullpen is a weak spot? If so, (since we're in a thread about Bastardo), do you feel that LH relief pitching is a specific 2016 weakness, and would adding a quality LHer lessen those concerns?

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    I'm cheering for the young guys Rogers or Melotakis to get the gig, but I'm predicting it will be Abad and by the All Star break we'll be talking about an extension on this site.

     

    He was a pretty nice pitcher in 2013 and 2014. Looks like he tried to add a cutter last year at the expense of his curve. Not sure if there's any correlation but it is listed as a negative pitch.

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    Out of the young arms who is going to be the future closer?  If they are looking at it long term, the best outcome is probably Perkins becomes your setup lefty because Burdi? Meyer? Landa? May? has supplanted him as closer.  I would have liked them to get a legitimate 8th inning guy but 3+ years is a lot. 

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    I'm cheering for the young guys Rogers or Melotakis to get the gig, but I'm predicting it will be Abad and by the All Star break we'll be talking about an extension on this site.

     

    I was with you up until the extension. Abad has been downright awful vs LHB 3 of the 4 seasons. I don't think he will find great success here, and I worry we might miscast him as a lefty specialist too.

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    This kind of reminds me in movies when someone is talking about someone and they are standing behind them and listening!

    But to your question, I can only go off of the information that I have access to. So I don't know what you are working on or what other teams are. I am only privvy to what I see in media reports and hear when our GM speaks.

    Based on the Beradino article I linked to earlier in the thread, he said you founded the analytics department in 2009. If that is accurate, the Twins were behind the curve in terms of years. Oakland was in the late 90's, Boston was purchased by an algorithmic trader in 2002 who immediately put an analytic stamp on that team.

    Our current GM and manager until a year ago have always sounded skeptical towards SABR metrics. That has been well documented.

    The last thing I have to go off is a ranking that ESPN did where they ranked all the teams in baseball based on their use of analysis. They ranked the Twins 3rd lowest in the league, noting the skepticism from Ryan and Gardy.

    With that I would be more than happy to get your take on how the Twins have been characterized on this topic and whether it is fair or not. It would be very interesting to me

    http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12331388/the-great-analytics-rankings

    A couple of things. Then why state as fact we are 10-15 years behind the industry? Oakland didn't have an analytics department in the '90's. Nobody did. Boston didn't form an analytics department until the last few years. Their front office members and scouts were supposed to be up to date. They had a couple of guys in the office working on projects.

    Terry is always going to speak like a scout. That is who is he is at his core. Their is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Now he is a decision maker so he depends on our department to provide him info.

    Unfortunately the ESPN article was a disappointment. Ben cherry picked a quote by Terry right after he came back as GM and then picked a quote from Gardy who was no longer our manager. He didn't talk with Paul. I would hope we come out better in the 2016 analytics issue. 

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    Translation. 

     

    Bastardo is not on our team so the walks are a concern.  We traded for Jepsen so they are not a concern.

     

    I just wish the Twins would factor in everything, BB per 9 along side k per 9, and hits per 9.  It seems to me that walks are not as big of a concern with a guy that can strike guys out.

    No, it means a guy who is walking 3.0 per 9 or so is walking a guy between every third and fifth game. Not as concerning in the 7th. As you said though, a guy who strikes out a lot of hitters can take care of the extra base runners themselves so it isn't as much of a concern. 

    We do take into account everything with relievers. K's, BB's, pitch types, Statcast info, actual vs. expected numbers.

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    No, it means a guy who is walking 3.0 per 9 or so is walking a guy between every third and fifth game. Not as concerning in the 7th. As you said though, a guy who strikes out a lot of hitters can take care of the extra base runners themselves so it isn't as much of a concern. 

    We do take into account everything with relievers. K's, BB's, pitch types, Statcast info, actual vs. expected numbers.

     

    Just a question, but would be allowed to talk about what all goes into signing a free agent?  Obviously, if there's proprietary stuff there, leave it out.  But I'd really be curious what goes into how the team came to a decision to sign say Luke Hughes and Rickey Nolasco. what went right, not just with the decision itself, but the process, red flags,  reasons for  doing it, etc.

     

    what went wrong, etc. 

     

    I'd really be  curious. I'm sure it's not as simple as just doing it.

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    A couple of things. Then why state as fact we are 10-15 years behind the industry? Oakland didn't have an analytics department in the '90's. Nobody did. Boston didn't form an analytics department until the last few years. Their front office members and scouts were supposed to be up to date. They had a couple of guys in the office working on projects.

    Terry is always going to speak like a scout. That is who is he is at his core. Their is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Now he is a decision maker so he depends on our department to provide him info.

    Unfortunately the ESPN article was a disappointment. Ben cherry picked a quote by Terry right after he came back as GM and then picked a quote from Gardy who was no longer our manager. He didn't talk with Paul. I would hope we come out better in the 2016 analytics issue.

    Whether Boston or Oakland had departments or people working on projects, they were using data to make decisions in ways that the Twins were not. Rob Anthony did say in 2012 said the twins "were one of the last, if not the last team to address statistical analysis with a person dedicated solely to that"

     

    Additionally, a team can have a department but if the manager is not a believer, then it doesn't really matter. At least not the in game strategy portion such as defensive shifting.

     

    In 2003, Gardy was quoted as saying "numbers lie and I have a hard time believing all these stats. When a scout shows me the stats I show them the door". For example, I am guessing your team was pounding the table on the benefits of defensive shifting, but the twins were 26th in 2014. I am very happy that changed last year with Molitor.

    Edited by tobi0040
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    No, it means a guy who is walking 3.0 per 9 or so is walking a guy between every third and fifth game. Not as concerning in the 7th. As you said though, a guy who strikes out a lot of hitters can take care of the extra base runners themselves so it isn't as much of a concern. 

    We do take into account everything with relievers. K's, BB's, pitch types, Statcast info, actual vs. expected numbers.

     

    That does make sense, but some pitchers like Bastardo will have 3 great games in a row and in the fourth they will walk 3-4 in a row.   That was his biggest issue in Philly.   Of course, if he does not have "it" one  day, it should be obvious to the manager that he does not and get him out of there long enough to make enough damage (which was not always the case in Philly; and based on the way Perkins was handled in the second half, I suspect will not be the case with the Twins.)  

     

    You cannot really see this in cumulative numbers, other than individual game performances...

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    problem to me is how many at bats do you give him to see if he has it? 

     

    1?

     

    2? 

     

    3? 

     

    A manager isn't going to give the hook after 2 batters, and by the 3rd you're in trouble

     

    It's more than PAs.  Bastardo's BBs are of the 4-0, 4-1 variety.  I'd give the hook after 8 balls in a row and the Catcher should know what is going on as well.

     

    Edited by Thrylos
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    problem to me is how many at bats do you give him to see if he has it? 

     

    1?

     

    2? 

     

    3? 

     

    A manager isn't going to give the hook after 2 batters, and by the 3rd you're in trouble

    I remember Mitch Williams coming in to close, walk the first three and then strike the next three out.  BB's and for that matter, K's, are simply interesting statistics.  What actually matters is--did the pitcher pitch a scoreless inning and get the "save"?  

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    Thanks for coming in, Jack.

     

    Fair or not, we can only go by what you all make public. It was just a few years ago that your assistant GM didn't even know what some stats were in an interview. That may have influenced some of us to question the organization's commitment to math......However, I think it is clear that things have changed over the years, and the key now is where are you now. I remain hopeful that the organization is using every tool available to improve. 

     

    Have a great day.

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    That does make sense, but some pitchers like Bastardo will have 3 great games in a row and in the fourth they will walk 3-4 in a row.   That was his biggest issue in Philly.   Of course, if he does not have "it" one  day, it should be obvious to the manager that he does not and get him out of there long enough to make enough damage (which was not always the case in Philly; and based on the way Perkins was handled in the second half, I suspect will not be the case with the Twins.)  

     

    You cannot really see this in cumulative numbers, other than individual game performances...

    I think a lot of relievers follow this same pattern. The manager and pitching coaches confidence level in the pitcher will dictate how long the leash is. Also, who is not available that day, etc..

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    Thanks for coming in, Jack.

     

    Fair or not, we can only go by what you all make public. It was just a few years ago that your assistant GM didn't even know what some stats were in an interview. That may have influenced some of us to question the organization's commitment to math......However, I think it is clear that things have changed over the years, and the key now is where are you now. I remain hopeful that the organization is using every tool available to improve. 

     

    Have a great day.

    Mike, that interview was done during Spring Training of 2010 I believe. I understand that was a first impression and for many fans that is what sticks in their mind. Rob admits that wasn't one his finest hours and knows that has contributed to our image.
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    Whether Boston or Oakland had departments or people working on projects, they were using data to make decisions in ways that the Twins were not. Rob Anthony did say in 2012 said the twins "were one of the last, if not the last team to address statistical analysis with a person dedicated solely to that"

    Additionally, a team can have a department but if the manager is not a believer, then it doesn't really matter. At least not the in game strategy portion such as defensive shifting.

    In 2003, Gardy was quoted as saying "numbers lie and I have a hard time believing all these stats. When a scout shows me the stats I show them the door". For example, I am guessing your team was pounding the table on the benefits of defensive shifting, but the twins were 26th in 2014. I am very happy that changed last year with Molitor.

    I switched full-time in 2011. I had been working on various projects for 3 years maybe before that. Maybe two. The Phillies, Marlins, Tigers for sure didn't have someone at that time. Joe Sheehan had just started with the Blue Jays. I think teams like the Rangers and Braves had a person or two working on things but nobody focused on analytics. I think around 2010 or 2011 was around the time that teams not named the Rays, Pirates, or Cardinals started to understand they needed to do something in this area.

     

    There are other areas analytics can make an impact besides the field. gardy in the end started to realize that and having Paul and his staff has definitely helped in areas. Jos Vavra started implementing shifts, Paul expanded it, and Gene Glynn has done even more. Just knowing where we were when I started up until now, the changes have been pretty good.

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    Mike, that interview was done during Spring Training of 2010 I believe. I understand that was a first impression and for many fans that is what sticks in their mind. Rob admits that wasn't one his finest hours and knows that has contributed to our image.

     

    Again, thanks, and, I can imagine Rob would like those 20 - 30 minutes back. I actually felt kind of bad for him. Like I said, whether you were behind or not doesn't matter any more......what matters is where you are now, and where you plan to go.

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    Again, thanks, and, I can imagine Rob would like those 20 - 30 minutes back. I actually felt kind of bad for him. Like I said, whether you were behind or not doesn't matter any more......what matters is where you are now, and where you plan to go.

    I'm not familiar with that interview. Is this what you were referring to?

     

    http://www.startribune.com/q-and-a-assistant-gm-rob-antony/88887222/

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    Just a preemptive reminder, let's please not derail this thread going crazy on that old interview. I think it's quite safe to assume that if we as fans have a better grasp and more knowledge of baseball statistical analysis than we did a half decade ago, Rob Anthony surely does as well.

     

    Edit: I'm not implying anyone has done anything wrong here.

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    Just a preemptive reminder, let's please not derail this thread going crazy on that old interview. I think it's quite safe to assume that if we as fans have a better grasp and more knowledge of baseball statistical analysis than we did a half decade ago, Rob Anthony surely does as well.

     

    Edit: I'm not implying anyone has done anything wrong here.

     

    I get it, you hate me.

     

    :)

    Edited by Mike Sixel
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    Hello Mr. Goin,

     

    Thanks for taking some time out of your day to participate on this forum.  I have a question regarding Bastardo with an assumption that we do not sign him.  How closely do you follow guys like him after missing out?  I assume that each offseason you go into that you only have a small list of free agents that you have real interest in due to cost, need, ect....  After missing out on most of them do you follow them over the next few years to see if your analytics and scouting got it right or if you mis-valued the player?  A classic example of this that I always wondered about happened in 2009, your first year on the job full time I think.  The Twins made a hard stance on Casey Blake that they would give him 2 years but not 3 and lost him to the Dodgers.  The Twins went on to sign Crede who had a very frustrating and injury filled year with the Twins while Blake went on to have 1 great, 1 good, and 1 mediocre year in LA.  Did your team do retrospective analysis on your assessment of him and the offer the Twins made?  If not, do you anticipate doing so with some of the relief free agents like Bastardo that the Twins have missed out on?  Thank you for your time!

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    No I just re-read the article and saw lightening rods sticking up throughout the interview.

     

    Looks like Jack's got you whipped into shape anyway!

     

    Ya, re-reading it is fascinating in some ways. And yes, it could create a chain of threads. And yes, Jack was nice enough to respond. I imagine he's a pretty nice guy.

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