Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • The Arraez-Lopez Trade Hints at the Injury Status of Key Players


    Peter Labuza

    With the trade of Luis Arraez to the Marlins, the Twins are taking a risk by swapping a critical bat in their line up in the hope of pitching depth. But as many analysts here have shown, the trade leaves quite a few questions. So is it possible the Twins know something about the health of their players that we currently do not?

    Image courtesy of Jeffrey Becker-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    The Twins neither had to drop one of the best bats in the American League nor acquire more pitching depth to technically have a successful off season. In fact, the hitters are now almost obviously in a worse place without Arraez leading off every day. But this is also a team prone to injuries—so much it led to a new trainer coming in this off season—and it is likely the Twins made this trade on knowledge of what team might be playing in 2023.

    Let’s start on the pitching side. Depending on who you talk to, the Twins either had eight starting pitchers heading into the off season or two. Although no longer requiring the services of the Dylan Bundys and Chris Archers of the world, the rotation set up for this year has been beaten and bruised in recent years: Tyler Mahle’s shoulder, Bailey Ober’s groin, Tommy John for Kenta Maeda and Chris Paddack (the Twins at least seem some potential upside with Paddack, signing him to an extremely team friendly extension). Sonny Gray and Joe Ryan made it through the season quite well, but neither grabbed enough innings to even qualify for awards at the end of the season. The prospects show a lot of upside, but none are an ace. With Correa and Buxton both hitting their peak seasons, the Twins aren’t necessarily interested in a bet when the American League Central remains easily taken.

    Lopez thus seems like an easy, but not necessarily ideal, addition to the team. He’s certainly a great, and possibly All Star caliber pitcher, but is clearly a step below what many Twins fans hoped for at the beginning of the season. Additionally, he has similar injury questions over the last couple years. 

    However, one way the trade makes more sense is if you assume that those possible injuries are not just hypotheticals but still real. Maeda and Ober last year seemed to be mysteries waiting in the wing for returns with deadlines kicked down the can. Falvey and co. have painted an optimistic picture but have seemingly remained tight lipped on what to expect, particularly on Mahle. If the Twins know if any of these pitchers are actually in the same trouble as before, the Lopez trade becomes not so much as padding as a necessity. The Twins themselves have hinted at returning Ober to Triple A, perhaps in part due to maybe looming injury concerns. 

    On the upside of things, this also means the Twins have likely been able to see enough upside finally on Alex Kirilloff. Anytime the word “experimental” is used to describe a surgery can cause worry, but the Twins likely knew enough that they could trade their All Star first baseman as Kirilloff was ready to fill the void. According to Aaron Gleeman at The Athletic, “Whereas last offseason Kirilloff had to shut down his hitting for a month, this year there have been no such shutdowns.” The various projection models seem at least positive on him, hitting around .260 and a positive WRC+, which would nowhere near put him in the All Star level but also help clear the way for the next round of prospects as Jose Miranda eventually makes a mid season move there. The question for Kirilloff is not necessarily that he be fantastic as much as healthy on the field. The Twins, it seems, have seen enough to pull the trigger on what would otherwise be a somewhat alarming trade, especially after Arraez won a Gold Glove for his work at the position.

    Nobody truly loves this trade, but the problem seems to in part by seeing the Twins at full strength rather than what might actually be the case. Sometimes front offices do have to make bets, but they know quite a bit more about the status of the players coming into camp next month. If the Twins see two pitchers go down by the end of April, having Lopez will be an absolute welcome. And if Kirilloff plays well enough, Arraez’s production will still be aesthetically missed, but not necessarily lost. If anything, knowing they should make this trade only confirms the worries that the team that won't be obvious to us until players report to Fort Meyers.

     

    MORE FROM TWINS DAILY
    — Latest Twins coverage from our writers
    — Recent Twins discussion in our forums
    — Follow Twins Daily via Twitter, Facebook or email
    — Become a Twins Daily Caretaker

     Share


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

    2 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

     

    As an aside, I have the under on a combined 375 innings from Mahle, Maeda and Gray this season. If you believe that, acquiring a guy who thru 180 innings last year makes a lot of sense. Btw, I also have the under on 180 innings from Lopez in ‘23 or ‘24. I know, I know, I’m such a Debbie Downer.

    I'll take the over on the Mahle, Maeda and Gray (2021 innings pitched 180,106 and 135) But agree on the under (180) on Lopez.

    My guess is that if they're spending $50+ mil on two players for the next 6 years 3rd place finishes are no acceptable if they want to be here at the end of those contracts. Throw in a slew of young position players ready to contribute and few pitchers who could = Lopez and something has to give. Could it be injury insurance? Sure. I think Correa + Buxton and the pitching pipeline has more to do with it.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

    The weight being placed on the shoulders of Alex Kirilloff is off the charts. 

    I hope everyone is right and I am able to watch him be what we hope he will be. 

    I would hope that the Twins don’t put the expectation of All-Star performance on what (I hope) is his first full season. Making up for Arraez’ contribution should come from improvements from Buxton, Polanco, Gallo, Kepler who are coming off disappointing seasons mostly due to injury. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I'm legitimately mad at the front office for this.  They've overloaded the outfield, now the starting rotation is overloaded, and we just lost an MVP-caliber player.  WTAF.... Great, we got Correa... who in the hell is he going to turn 2 with all season long?  Who the hell is he going to score from 2B?  This offense was already anemic and it just got a lot worse.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    34 minutes ago, HokieRif said:

    I'm legitimately mad at the front office for this.  They've overloaded the outfield, now the starting rotation is overloaded, and we just lost an MVP-caliber player.  WTAF.... Great, we got Correa... who in the hell is he going to turn 2 with all season long?  Who the hell is he going to score from 2B?  This offense was already anemic and it just got a lot worse.

    Arraez isn't close to MVP. Also, they aren't overloaded....they literally used 9 OFers last year. I'm guessing he's going to turn 2 with Polanco, who is a better overall player than Arraez (O, D, running all taken into account). As for the SP, they are also not overloaded. I'd be shocked if we don't see Varland, Ober, and SWR all start games this year.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

    I would hope that the Twins don’t put the expectation of All-Star performance on what (I hope) is his first full season. Making up for Arraez’ contribution should come from improvements from Buxton, Polanco, Gallo, Kepler who are coming off disappointing seasons mostly due to injury. 

    Me To

    The expectations that I'm picking up on is coming from posters and bloggers. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    25 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

    Arraez isn't close to MVP. Also, they aren't overloaded....they literally used 9 OFers last year. I'm guessing he's going to turn 2 with Polanco, who is a better overall player than Arraez (O, D, running all taken into account). As for the SP, they are also not overloaded. I'd be shocked if we don't see Varland, Ober, and SWR all start games this year.

    Just to emphasize your point Mike, The runner-up AL batting Champ had an OPS that was 250 point higher than Arraez and his wRC+ was 76 points higher and he is a plus defender.  His WAR was over 3X that of Arraez.  I would also add that adding Lopez is a gain over Ober and Ober will be a gain over whoever he replaces in the BP if they utilize him in that capacity.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    5 hours ago, Karbo said:

    I am very interested to see how this staff is managed. If Rocco sticks to the 5 and fly again your estimates on IP is probably very close. In addition, if the Twins want to resign any of these guys good luck.

    I don't think it will be 5 and fly. Here's why:

    Here are some past averages from Rocco's managerial days that are above last year's MLB average of 5.2 innings per start:

    • Joe Ryan, 2022, 5.44
    • Jose Berrios, 2021, 6.08
    • Kenta Maeda, 2020, 6.06
    • Jose Berrios, 2020, 5.25
    • Michael Pineda, 2020 5.33 (only 5 starts)
    • Jose Berrios, 2019, 6.26
    • Martin Perez, 2019, 5.41
    • Jake Odorizzi, 2019, 5.30
    • Michael Pineda, 2019, 5.62

    Do you know what these guys have in common? Two things:

    1. With the exception of Ryan last year, they were experienced pitchers.
    2. They didn't suck. In fact, they were usually pretty good, sometimes even excellent.

    Point being, when Rocco has had the horses, he's let them ride. The notion of "Rocco pulls the starter early" is recency bias, driven by a season when A) they were beset by injuries, so they were going to rookies way more than they wanted to; B) Archer never extended; C) if they were pitching veterans, they were protecting them out of necessity, knowing that another injury meant another Cole Sands start; and D) they often sucked. Sure, there were individual games when they didn't suck, and TD readers wanted Rocco to leave the guy in longer, but Rocco seemed to take the long view that C is more important than D. I generally agree.  

    So this year, they are going into the season with Perez, Gray, Ryan, Mahle and Maeda. That group checks Box No. 1, though Maeda is coming off TJS and Mahle missed the season's end. And all of them have the potential to be anywhere from pretty good to excellent, which checks Box No. 2. And there's the herd of young guys coming from behind -- Ober, Winder, et. al. -- who we seem to think fit Box No. 2, if not yet Box No. 1.  

    (Apologies if I took the thread off-topic. If need be, I can cut and paste the comment to any number of other threads where it also fits!)

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    13 hours ago, IndianaTwin said:

    I don't think it will be 5 and fly. Here's why:

    Here are some past averages from Rocco's managerial days that are above last year's MLB average of 5.2 innings per start:

    • Joe Ryan, 2022, 5.44
    • Jose Berrios, 2021, 6.08
    • Kenta Maeda, 2020, 6.06
    • Jose Berrios, 2020, 5.25
    • Michael Pineda, 2020 5.33 (only 5 starts)
    • Jose Berrios, 2019, 6.26
    • Martin Perez, 2019, 5.41
    • Jake Odorizzi, 2019, 5.30
    • Michael Pineda, 2019, 5.62

    Do you know what these guys have in common? Two things:

    1. With the exception of Ryan last year, they were experienced pitchers.
    2. They didn't suck. In fact, they were usually pretty good, sometimes even excellent.

    Point being, when Rocco has had the horses, he's let them ride. The notion of "Rocco pulls the starter early" is recency bias, driven by a season when A) they were beset by injuries, so they were going to rookies way more than they wanted to; B) Archer never extended; C) if they were pitching veterans, they were protecting them out of necessity, knowing that another injury meant another Cole Sands start; and D) they often sucked. Sure, there were individual games when they didn't suck, and TD readers wanted Rocco to leave the guy in longer, but Rocco seemed to take the long view that C is more important than D. I generally agree.  

    So this year, they are going into the season with Perez, Gray, Ryan, Mahle and Maeda. That group checks Box No. 1, though Maeda is coming off TJS and Mahle missed the season's end. And all of them have the potential to be anywhere from pretty good to excellent, which checks Box No. 2. And there's the herd of young guys coming from behind -- Ober, Winder, et. al. -- who we seem to think fit Box No. 2, if not yet Box No. 1.  

    (Apologies if I took the thread off-topic. If need be, I can cut and paste the comment to any number of other threads where it also fits!)

     

     

    OK, but notice that only Berrios and Maeda got up to 6 IP. I hope you're right, but I have little faith in Rocco.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    15 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

    Me To

    The expectations that I'm picking up on is coming from posters and bloggers. 

    Posters and bloggers aren't the Twins org, thankfully. We're all just arm chair GMing here. But yes, I hope that all expectations aren't on Kirilloff's shoulders, it should be on everyone's shoulders.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    Berrios pitched more innings per start under Rocco than he did during the same season under the Jay's manager. The Jays were fighting for a playoff spot and didn't ride Jose as hard as Rocco did early in a season. This narrative surrounding Rocco is not only incredibly stale it is incorrect. From what I've seen if Rocco has the horses, he will ride them. Archer and Bundy? C'mon now.

    There is another narrative that Sonny Gray wants out. This is based on what? Gray was mad when pulled from a game, as any competitive pitcher should be, and said he wanted to go deeper in games. What happened? The next game Rocco left him in and he got shelled. Gray said, "I need to be better". Somehow that translates into Gray wants out. Personally I don't get it. 

    Maybe the PR department needs to "catch" Rocco on camera swilling a Bud Lite in the dugout lol. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I have no confidence in the Twins front office. Trading a hitter of Arraez caliber for a pitcher is a mistake. There was no reason why Luis couldn't be a DH if his fielding is "that" bad. So now we have a DH who hits below the Mendoza line and strikes out half the time. I would have felt better about the deal if the Twins would have gotten a reliever included in the deal. Our bullpen is our weakness right now (though the offense did take a hit) and now there is talk of trading Kepler- who will be helped with no shift anymore- and for what? We can have 10 starters but they won't pitch more than 6 innings. So, with a weakened offense scoring fewer runs, the added burden falls on the bullpen. Yikes! I am growing more concerned about the Twins ability to win more than half their games in 2023. But I'll wait for now before making any predictions.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    45 minutes ago, wabene said:

    Berrios pitched more innings per start under Rocco than he did during the same season under the Jay's manager. The Jays were fighting for a playoff spot and didn't ride Jose as hard as Rocco did early in a season. This narrative surrounding Rocco is not only incredibly stale it is incorrect. From what I've seen if Rocco has the horses, he will ride them. Archer and Bundy? C'mon now.

    There is another narrative that Sonny Gray wants out. This is based on what? Gray was mad when pulled from a game, as any competitive pitcher should be, and said he wanted to go deeper in games. What happened? The next game Rocco left him in and he got shelled. Gray said, "I need to be better". Somehow that translates into Gray wants out. Personally I don't get it. 

    Maybe the PR department needs to "catch" Rocco on camera swilling a Bud Lite in the dugout lol. 

    These ideas are mostly driven by people who don't like the state of baseball and don't like the manager and the front office. Sonny Gray complains once about not going deeper in games and suddenly no pitcher will ever sign an extension here because all starters only want to come to a place where they are ridden like Dusty Baker did with the Cubs 20 years ago.

    You're right: they will let pitchers who can go deeper, go deeper.

    And the players like Rocco and like playing for him. I'm guessing a lot of them like winning more, so they're not going to fall on their swords for him if the team ain't winning, but there's literally zero signs Rocco has lost the clubhouse.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

    Posters and bloggers aren't the Twins org, thankfully. We're all just arm chair GMing here. But yes, I hope that all expectations aren't on Kirilloff's shoulders, it should be on everyone's shoulders.

    Yes. To me, that’s one of the biggest strengths of this roster — its flexibility. Other than catcher, there’s not a single position where there aren’t at least three viable options for solid, if not outstanding, play. Not necessarily three long-term options, but options that can work in covering a 10-day IL stint, etc. And even at catcher, they have a stable of guys in St. Paul with MLB experience. 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...