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  • Ryan Dismissal Leaves Many Questions


    Seth Stohs

    Like most, I was sitting at my desk at work on Monday morning. At about 11:20, I checked my e-mail and there it was, “Minnesota Twins Announce General Manager Terry Ryan Has Been Relieved of His Duties.” Like most, my attention was on that topic for much of the rest of the day. My mind was racing, so many thoughts, ideas and questions running through my mind.

    In the afternoon, CEO Jim Pohlad and President Dave St. Peter spoke to the media at Target Field. After reading and hearing their comments, there wasn’t any more clarity. There were, however, more questions.

    Image courtesy of Brad Rempel, USA Today

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    Before we get to the questions, I’m going to take a moment to share some thoughts on Terry Ryan. As you’ve noticed, most people who know Ryan or have worked in any capacity start discussions today with what a terrific person that he is. Then they go on to, typically, state that despite that, the Twins needed to make a change. It’s hard to argue with any of that. Terry Ryan has always treated me with the utmost respect and been upfront and as honest as he can be. He has been very helpful to me and accepting of Twins Daily. I have always enjoyed each opportunity and I have had to converse with Ryan and feel like I learn something each time whether or not we’re even talking about baseball.

    For me, Terry Ryan was always someone I admired. I look at what he did in the late 90s to set up the success the Twins had for most of the decade of 2000. Signing veterans and then trading them to acquire more young talent. Building a farm system and building a winner on a budget. As a blogger who started in 2003, I enjoyed seeing the transactions and trying to figure out what Ryan was doing. I recall seemingly any time I wrote something about the Twins being out of it, they would find a way to get themselves back into contention.

    Unfortunately, since his return, the Twins have had many low moments, and there have been fewer positive turn-arounds.

    When Ryan reclaimed the GM position, I sent him a quick note. He responded relatively quickly and noted “we won’t take any shortcuts.”

    He set out to help re-establish and repopulate the Twins minor league system. And you know what… he did just that. The last few years, the Twins have been one of the top three minor league organizations by most who rank those types of things. In the last couple of seasons, we have begun to see some of the talented players who have helped the Twins to those rankings. And the farm system is still stacked with terrific talent.

    Think about it for a moment. Ryan made the focus of the organization development of the minor league system. Miguel Sano, Byron Buxton, Max Kepler, and Jorge Polanco all have a lot of room to grow as players. Jose Berrios will take off at some point, and within the next two or three years the likes of Kohl Stewart, Stephen Gonsalves, Tyler Jay, Felix Jorge, Fernando Romero and some others have a chance to round out a solid rotation. Taylor Rogers, Trevor May, Michael Tonkin and Ryan Pressly are developing this year and will lead the way as JT Chargois, Nick Burdi, Mason Melotakis and Trevor Hildenberger are on their way. In some ways, I think that whoever takes over as the next Twins general manager is going to look pretty smart when so many of these young, talented players reach their potential.

    Will Terry Ryan get credit when this team takes off thanks to the core of young players that developed under his watch?

    That’s one question I have, and here are some more questions I have after today.

    What’s up with the timing of this decision?

    My first organizational thought after my initial surprise at the Twins move was, why did they make this decision less than two weeks from this year’s August 1st trade deadline? That certainly puts Rob Antony, who was named the interim GM, in a tough position. Then again, he will be supported by the Twins current front office, scouts and player personnel staff.

    Will Rob Antony get a legitimate shot to have the interim-label removed?

    All indications from Monday’s discussions seem to indicate that the Twins will look to hire someone from outside the organization. However, the track record of the organization would certainly indicate that he will be given an opportunity. How he handled the trade deadline and, frankly, how the team performs may be his interview for the job. Maybe that is why Terry Ryan resigned when he did, to give Antony an opportunity to show what he can do, his style, etc.

    Should Rob Antony get a legitimate shot at the full-time GM job?

    Among Twins fans, the general sentiment seems to be that they have to go outside the organization to change the culture. When Antony’s name comes up, fans like to bring up the spring training when Antony took over the reigns when Ryan was working through his cancer treatments and recovery. They like to bring up the decision to keep Jason Kubel and Jason Bartlett on the Opening Day roster. First, that’s a very small sample size. All other reports indicate that Antony has done a nice job as Ryan’s assistant GM. He is well respected among players and scouts for his negotiations in arbitration and free agencies. He’s being given a lot of credit, by Eduardo Nunez, for bringing him to the Twins. And yes, he has been involved in the current ‘regime,’ but that doesn’t mean that things would be exactly the same under Antony’s leadership. Maybe they would be, but my assumption is that Antony would be willing to do some things differently. In general, I just don’t like the idea that it has to be someone from outside the organization.

    Should the Twins go outside the organization for their GM hire?

    To appease the fan base, it is probably a good idea to hire someone from outside. While the Twins have implemented many more systems throughout the minor leagues and added more statistical analysis, it is never a bad idea to look elsewhere for new and fresh ideas. If nothing else, the Twins ownership group needs to take time to consider what is happening in other organizations and reassess their own expectations for a GM or other roles in the organization.

    So, who will make the hire? Who will sit in on the interviews?

    From various interviews, it does appear that the Twins could use a search firm to develop a list or candidates or even make a recommendation. However, it will be Jim Pohlad and Dave St. Peter who will have the final say. St. Peter even said that he would likely talk about candidates with Tom Kelly.

    I’m not a huge fan of search firms, but I don’t know that Pohlad and St. Peter are necessarily the right people to make the decision on the next General Manager. I have my doubts.

    More important, what are these two looking for in a GM?

    In May, I wrote up many of the roles, responsibilities and requirements for a GM. I would hope that the owner and president would provide a search firm a very, very detailed list of exactly what they are looking for in the next GM.

    Will Rob Antony be given full rein to do as he sees best for the Twins organization during this trade deadline?

    We are being told that he will not be limited. We are told that they have complete confidence in Antony to do what is best for the organization. This is such a big trade deadline with some very difficult decisions to make. Which players will or should be traded? How will he do in terms of negotiating prospect returns? The tough part of this is that those trades really can’t be graded for several years.

    The unfortunate thing for Antony is that he will be trading veterans and getting back non-big name prospects. Most fans will respond to any Twins trade returns with “Who is that?” Some will say, “That’s all Antony was able to get for (insert Nunez, Kintzler, Abad, Escobar, Santana, Nolasco here)?” He could trade Brian Dozier for a bigger return and make a bigger splash, but then critics will question that decision as well. It’s a tough situation for Antony to be thrust into, but again it’s probably the only option to give him some experience to add to his resume.

    Should the Twins wait until after the season to decide?

    Well, Pohlad has said that they are going to start their search right away and would like to name their new GM even before the season ends. Is this wise? There are only 30 MLB General Manager jobs available. Each year, maybe one, possibly two GM jobs are available (if that many), so these jobs don’t come around real often. By starting this process and making a decision early, they will get a headstart on other GM jobs that may open up in the offseason (if any).

    The downside is that there may be playoff-contending teams that won’t let their employees apply or interview for this job until after their seasons. In other words, it’s possible that a couple of potential candidates may not be available for this reason.

    Is the Twins General Manager a desirable position that candidates should seek?

    It absolutely should be a job that people would want. As I wrote earlier, the talent accumulated by Ryan and Company will make the next GM look really smart over the next couple of years. There is a lot of talent. Secondly, as I mentioned earlier, there are only 30 Major League GM jobs available. These jobs don’t come along, so there should be plenty of strong options for Pohlad and St. Peter to consider. Finally, if the team has any form of success with the GM, the organization is very loyal. It’s a job that could come with a lot of leeway.

    How does this affect the rest of the Twins front office?

    For the short-term, it doesn’t. Rob Antony takes over as interim GM. They continue in their roles, supporting Antony. But if someone else is chosen as the General Manager, you would think that he (or she) would come with some of his own personnel. I personally hope that the new GM would be open to keeping at least some of the current staff. Would a new GM expand upon Jack Goin’s current analytical group, or would he bring in his own people? How will Mike Radcliff, the Twins director of player personnel and long-time employee who, like Ryan, has given up several opportunities to be with other organizations, fit into the organization? Does Deron Johnson remain the team’s scouting director? Does Brad Steil remain the Twins minor league director? I don’t think we know.

    Pohlad has said that Paul Molitor will be the Twins manager in 2017 regardless of who the GM is. Why would he do that? How does it affect the on-field coaching staff?

    I have no idea why Pohlad would say that a GM can't make decide on his own manager 2017, year one of his or her tenure. Look at any sport and a new GM will almost always want to insert his own choice for manager or coach. Often, he will allow the current coach to stick around, but he is basically a lame duck and it doesn’t take long for a new coaching staff to be brought in. For the remainder of 2016, the coaching staff is most likely safe. The manager appears safe for at least the start of 2017, but beyond that I can’t imagine the coaching staff has a lot of job security.

    Will the Twins bring back Terry Ryan in some capacity sometime in the future?

    It is certainly possible that Ryan will come back to the Twins in some capacity, similar to Ron Gardenhire or Bill Smith? Obviously there is no way to know that answer right now. Pohlad and St. Peter indicate that they believe Ryan will seek a job elsewhere at this time. And he should. He is likely to have several offers to be a scout down the stretch for a winning team, or maybe a scouting director for a team as we go forward.

    I get that there is a strong percentage of fandom that hates that they would bring back the likes of Smith or Gardenhire. I’m certainly on the complete opposite end of that spectrum. Bill Smith was a very good employee for the Twins for 20-25 years before his stint as the GM. He had a lot of strong qualities. Why would an organization not take advantage of those qualities. Since his return, he has been used in roles away from the baseball operations group. He has been very instrumental in the renovations at Hammond Stadium, the player academy in Ft. Myers, and will be key in the development of the new academy in the Dominican Republic. Gardenhire had a lot of success as a coach and a manager in the organization. He has a lot of knowledge to share, or can be an ear for minor league managers to talk to. After taking some time off, his return has been appreciated throughout the system. I don’t know why an organization wouldn’t want smart baseball people involved in the organization if they are still interested. And, for me, I would want to work in a culture where people like that are welcomed back. To me, it says a lot (positively) about the Twins culture brought about through the leadership of Terry Ryan.

    If Ryan would ever be willing to come back in an advisory role in the scouting department, I’d certainly be willing to bring him back. I don’t know that he would want that though.

    That is a bunch of questions after the dismissal of Terry Ryan. And you may have more in mind. Please feel free to ask more questions or answer some of these in the Comments below.

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    And I am OK with that. Dave St. Peter runs the show and does his job well, but he readily admits that he doesn't deal much with the baseball side of things. Jim Pohlad is fine when he stays out of the way, and I"m OK with that from an owner. I don't necessarily want them budding in on things. But obviously these two are the ones that need to hire a good candidate which is why they need to get outside help. In my opinion...

    I guess I don't understand how a guy that doesn't deal much with the baseball side of things has a say in who the GM will be. That is basically the biggest baseball side of things decision, no?

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    When Antony’s name comes up, fans like to bring up the spring training when Antony took over the reigns when Ryan was working through his cancer treatments and recovery. They like to bring up the decision to keep Jason Kubel and Jason Bartlett on the Opening Day roster. First, that’s a very small sample size.

    Seth, you're ignoring the Bill Smith era here.  Antony likely had more power/influence from October 2007 to November 2011 as the #2 in command under admitted "administrator" type GM Smith than he did in the spring of 2014 in place of TR.  And there is evidence that Antony contributed to major blunders (the costly acquisition of Delmon Young and Antony's public comments on the predictive power of RBI, for example), or at the very least, failed to see and communicate the obvious problems in moves driven by others (the Gardenhire-led Hardy-for-Hoey swap, for example).

     

    I view that as Antony's chief negative in terms of gauging his ability to take over the top spot, and his limited spring 2014 performance is simply confirmation of the earlier exposed issues (chiefly, allowing Gardy to roster Bartlett against all logic and reason).

     

     

    All other reports indicate that Antony has done a nice job as Ryan’s assistant GM. He is well respected among players and scouts for his negotiations in arbitration and free agencies. He’s being given a lot of credit, by Eduardo Nunez, for bringing him to the Twins. And yes, he has been involved in the current ‘regime,’ but that doesn’t mean that things would be exactly the same under Antony’s leadership. Maybe they would be, but my assumption is that Antony would be willing to do some things differently. In general, I just don’t like the idea that it has to be someone from outside the organization.

     

    Also, the fact that Antony is respected in contract negotiations is nice, but that's the work of an assistant GM.  As Bill Smith demonstrated, it is largely immaterial to his ability to be an effective GM.  Sure, Antony might finally demonstrate previously unseen dynamic, aggressive, original ideas about talent procurement, roster construction, and front office organization, just like Juan Centeno may begin hitting HR at the rate of 1 per week.  But evidence overwhelmingly suggests that neither is likely the case, and Centeno will continue to perform like a backup catcher, and Antony will continue to perform like an administrative-minded assistant GM.  To deny that and say "anything's possible!" with no evidence doesn't feel like a substantive point.

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    Seth, my first thought was here comes a salary dump. In the short term by the trade deadline, followed by additional moves in the off-season to minimize payroll. Do you think I'm overreacting?

    I'm OK with a salary dump simply because the only players I still want on this team come next year don't make much. Plouffe, Santana, Perkins, Nolasco, Mauer, Hughes? Man, if Anthony had some kind of magic potion and was able to lose those last four, even I might be on board with giving him a real shot.

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    I understand why they did it but if they wanted to give a legit candidate an opportunity to be GM for 3-4 months, why not go with Radcliff?

     

    I'm not a fan of the organization hiring anyone from within but if they're going to hire a person from 1 Twins Way, Radcliff is the least offensive option available.

    I really have no clue what Krivsky does for this team, but he's been a GM before, I would have preferred him over Anthony as well.

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     Dave St. Peter runs the show and does his job well

     

    Based on what?  Twins wins?  Bottoms on the seats?

     

    Because if his performance metric is to get people to use his "brand", he has been failing, really... 

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    People fear a salary dump?

     

    Mauer, E San, Nolasco, Hughes, Plouffe, Dozier, Perkins, Dozier.....

     

    who on that last would be bad to get rid of?

     

    The second Dozier ;)

     

    You can add a few names to the list as well...

    Edited by Thrylos
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    It shouldn't be hard to acquire young talent when you have a top 5 pick every year and practically every attempt TR made to supplement that talent went bad. I think it's all PR about going outside the organization for the next GM and will be genuinely shocked if Antony isn't the GM in 2017.

     

    Your top 5 thing makes no sense:

     

    - Few of the Twins best prospects in the high minors/majors were drafted in the Top 5. Berrios was picked late 1st, Rosario/Gonsalves were picked in the 4th and Kepler/Sano/Jorge/Polanco/Thorpe were astute international signings. Yes the Twins have Buxton but to say that the Twins prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks is naïve.
    - And TR should get credit for the Top 5 picks he’s made. Picking in the MLB Top 5 isn't like the NFL or the NBA, where most guys turn out to be at least rotation players. Baseball is more of a crapshoot, even in the top 5. Less than half of top 5 picks become successful players. The Twins should actually get credit for some very astute drafting in the top 5 or 6 as Tyler Jay, Nick Gordon, Kohl Stewart and Buxton all are still legitimate prospects who look to play key roles in the future of the Twins. That isn’t a given and TR and the Twins should get some props for that.

     

    I also think it’s incorrect to say that “practically every attempt TR made to supplement [Top 5] talent went bad.” Terry Ryan has also done many good things acquiring talent in other ways:

     

    - His trades for May and Meyer were good trades. The Twins got legitimate prospects while trading from a place of depth (Revere especially - replacement level player). Just because Meyer has been hurt and May has stagnated a bit this year doesn’t make the value gained in those trades any less. Both players are still part of the Twins plans for the future and besides, you can’t judge a move on how much WAR the player gets. Injuries happen and there are no givens – both of those trades were good value and were smart moves I would do again.
    - Terry Ryan (and Bill Smith before him) is actually pretty amazing at getting value for useless players. TR got Daniel Palka for Chris Hermann (amazing to get anything!), Tommy Milone for Sam Fuld and Nunez for Butera (via Miguel Sulbaran). That’s not super sexy but being able to get something for basically nothing is really pivotal for building a 25 man roster. The Twins have to hope that Anthony is as good getting useful parts for players with limited upside like Plouffe and Suzuki.
    - TR’s done a pretty good job not losing players via the Rule 5, which is harder than it seems when you have lots of young unproven players. TD has slammed him for this but Jones came back from the Brewers and Sean Gilmartin has pretty conclusively shown that last year was a fluke. TR even picked up Ryan Pressly and J.R. Graham from the Rule 5 – Pressly at least seems like a good bullpen option for the Twins to come.
    - Robbie Grossman was a nice pickup who might have some value either as small trade bait or as a 4th OF in the future.

     

    This isn’t to say that you couldn’t highlight mistakes TR has made but it’s really unfair to say that (A.) anyone can pick well in the top 5, (B.) that the Twins enviable prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks and (C.) that TR was unable to add talent outside of high draft picks.

     

    It is likely time for TR to go (though if the Pohldad’s don’t stop being cheapskates I don’t see how the next guy is going to do better than TR – not sure why that isn’t the story) but I think we should give credit where credit is due: TR has done an admirable job restocking the Twins minor league system after it bottomed out in the early 2010s. The Twins are a year or two away from contention but the fact that the future looks that rosy is a testament to TR.

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    Seth, my first thought was here comes a salary dump. In the short term by the trade deadline, followed by additional moves in the off-season to minimize payroll. Do you think I'm overreacting?

     

    I don't think a salary dump has anything to do with this decision. And I don't think letting Ryan go would hurt the Twins in terms of payroll. Ryan kept it down. 

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    Your top 5 thing makes no sense:

     

    - Few of the Twins best prospects in the high minors/majors were drafted in the Top 5. Berrios was picked late 1st, Rosario/Gonsalves were picked in the 4th and Kepler/Sano/Jorge/Polanco/Thorpe were astute international signings. Yes the Twins have Buxton but to say that the Twins prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks is naïve.
    - And TR should get credit for the Top 5 picks he’s made. Picking in the MLB Top 5 isn't like the NFL or the NBA, where most guys turn out to be at least rotation players. Baseball is more of a crapshoot, even in the top 5. Less than half of top 5 picks become successful players. The Twins should actually get credit for some very astute drafting in the top 5 or 6 as Tyler Jay, Nick Gordon, Kohl Stewart and Buxton all are still legitimate prospects who look to play key roles in the future of the Twins. That isn’t a given and TR and the Twins should get some props for that.

     

     

     

    You do realize that Kepler, Sano, Jorge and Polanco were all signed by Bill Smith, right? 

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    Based on what?  Twins wins?  Bottoms on the seats?

     

    Because if his performance metric is to get people to use his "brand", he has been failing, really... 

     

    I think I explained that pretty well... in the non-on-field baseball things. The Twins do a great job in PR, in Marketing, in the stadium itself... all the non-baseball stuff... 

     

    That's why I'd be good with someone taking a president of baseball operations job and keep St. Peter doing those things that he does well. 

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    I really have no clue what Krivsky does for this team, but he's been a GM before, I would have preferred him over Anthony as well.

    Just to show how much I don't know what Krivsky does for the Twins, I completely forgot he was with the team even though I was reminded of it just yesterday.

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    I understand why they did it but if they wanted to give a legit candidate an opportunity to be GM for 3-4 months, why not go with Radcliff?

     

    I'm not a fan of the organization hiring anyone from within but if they're going to hire a person from 1 Twins Way, Radcliff is the least offensive option available.

    Interesting idea.  5 years ago, MLBTR had a similar idea:

     

    http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2011/08/gm-candidate-mike-radcliff.html

     

    Of course, shortly thereafter the Orioles inquired about interviewing Radcliff for their GM opening, and the Twins declined (rumor suggesting the Radcliff simply wasn't interested):

     

    http://www.twincities.com/2011/11/03/twins-deny-orioles-access-to-radcliff-report-says/

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    I hope everyone involved are smart enough to bring external help and guys like Radcliff/Johnson into the conversation. While Radcliff and Johnson may have ulterior motives (keeping their jobs), they've both forgotten more about baseball than DSP or Pohlad will ever know.

     

    Johnson was responsible for the Twins amateur drafting and scouting.  Here are the people he drafted in the first 2 rounds of the draft in all Twins drafts 5 year and older (the expectation here is that you need about 5 years to develop someone)  :

     

    Hicks, Gutteriez, Shooter Hunt, Ladendorf, Gibson, Bashore, Bullock, Wimmers, Goodrum, Michael, Harrison, Boyd, Boer

     

    Do you trust him to make decisions for the club?

     

    Radcliff has been responsible for scouting players who come as free agents with the Twins

    (the list here is longer and started with Nishioka and ends with Park, with a few Nolascos, Correias, Pelfrys thrown in.)

     

    Do you trust him to make decisions for the club?

     

    I don't...

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    Johnson was responsible for the Twins amateur drafting and scouting.  Here are the people he drafted in the first 2 rounds of the draft in all Twins drafts 5 year and older (the expectation here is that you need about 5 years to develop someone)  :

     

    Hicks, Gutteriez, Shooter Hunt, Ladendorf, Gibson, Bashore, Bullock, Wimmers, Goodrum, Michael, Harrison, Boyd, Boer

     

    Do you trust him to make decisions for the club?

     

    Radcliff has been responsible for scouting players who come as free agents with the Twins

    (the list here is longer and started with Nishioka and ends with Park, with a few Nolascos, Correias, Pelfrys thrown in.)

     

    Do you trust him to make decisions for the club?

     

    I don't...

    When it comes to hiring someone into a baseball-first position, I trust them a hell of a lot more than DSP or Pohlad.

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    When it comes to hiring someone into a baseball-first position, I trust them a hell of a lot more than DSP or Pohlad.

    That's basically the same argument as:

     Well X would be better than Sidney Ponson

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    - Terry Ryan (and Bill Smith before him) is actually pretty amazing at getting value for useless players. TR got Daniel Palka for Chris Hermann (amazing to get anything!), Tommy Milone for Sam Fuld and Nunez for Butera (via Miguel Sulbaran). That’s not super sexy but being able to get something for basically nothing is really pivotal for building a 25 man roster. The Twins have to hope that Anthony is as good getting useful parts for players with limited upside like Plouffe and Suzuki.

    I won't enter your larger debate, but most every team finds a few interesting guys like this occasionally.  Usually it's more about the other team needing to unload the player, like the DFA'd Eduardo Nunez or the soon-to-be-expensive Tommy Milone, and less about any "amazing" skill on the part of the acquiring team.

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    Your top 5 thing makes no sense:

     

    - Few of the Twins best prospects in the high minors/majors were drafted in the Top 5. Berrios was picked late 1st, Rosario/Gonsalves were picked in the 4th and Kepler/Sano/Jorge/Polanco/Thorpe were astute international signings. Yes the Twins have Buxton but to say that the Twins prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks is naïve.
    - And TR should get credit for the Top 5 picks he’s made. Picking in the MLB Top 5 isn't like the NFL or the NBA, where most guys turn out to be at least rotation players. Baseball is more of a crapshoot, even in the top 5. Less than half of top 5 picks become successful players. The Twins should actually get credit for some very astute drafting in the top 5 or 6 as Tyler Jay, Nick Gordon, Kohl Stewart and Buxton all are still legitimate prospects who look to play key roles in the future of the Twins. That isn’t a given and TR and the Twins should get some props for that.

     

    I also think it’s incorrect to say that “practically every attempt TR made to supplement [Top 5] talent went bad.” Terry Ryan has also done many good things acquiring talent in other ways:

     

    - His trades for May and Meyer were good trades. The Twins got legitimate prospects while trading from a place of depth (Revere especially - replacement level player). Just because Meyer has been hurt and May has stagnated a bit this year doesn’t make the value gained in those trades any less. Both players are still part of the Twins plans for the future and besides, you can’t judge a move on how much WAR the player gets. Injuries happen and there are no givens – both of those trades were good value and were smart moves I would do again.
    - Terry Ryan (and Bill Smith before him) is actually pretty amazing at getting value for useless players. TR got Daniel Palka for Chris Hermann (amazing to get anything!), Tommy Milone for Sam Fuld and Nunez for Butera (via Miguel Sulbaran). That’s not super sexy but being able to get something for basically nothing is really pivotal for building a 25 man roster. The Twins have to hope that Anthony is as good getting useful parts for players with limited upside like Plouffe and Suzuki.
    - TR’s done a pretty good job not losing players via the Rule 5, which is harder than it seems when you have lots of young unproven players. TD has slammed him for this but Jones came back from the Brewers and Sean Gilmartin has pretty conclusively shown that last year was a fluke. TR even picked up Ryan Pressly and J.R. Graham from the Rule 5 – Pressly at least seems like a good bullpen option for the Twins to come.
    - Robbie Grossman was a nice pickup who might have some value either as small trade bait or as a 4th OF in the future.

     

    This isn’t to say that you couldn’t highlight mistakes TR has made but it’s really unfair to say that (A.) anyone can pick well in the top 5, (B.) that the Twins enviable prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks and (C.) that TR was unable to add talent outside of high draft picks.

     

    It is likely time for TR to go (though if the Pohldad’s don’t stop being cheapskates I don’t see how the next guy is going to do better than TR – not sure why that isn’t the story) but I think we should give credit where credit is due: TR has done an admirable job restocking the Twins minor league system after it bottomed out in the early 2010s. The Twins are a year or two away from contention but the fact that the future looks that rosy is a testament to TR.

    Bingo!

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    I think you are spot on Seth about why TR resigned when he did. To give Antony an audition.

    I think Pohlad let TR know that he was done at the end of the year and TR said 'screw it, I'm out of here, fire me now'. 

     

    Think about it, motivation is the key to most people's success, would you want to be TR and work 20 hour days leading up to the trade deadline, when you know that you're gone in October??

     

    Pohlad should have just kept his mouth shut until October and then let TR know it was time to go. That would have been the smart and classy way to go. Plus you'd have the ex-scout making trades at the deadline instead of a front office wonk.

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    One more thought. Be careful what you wish for, as in TR being fired.

     

    How many YEARS and coaches and GM's and wasted first round draft picks has it taken for the Timberwolves to get to this point?  Until Flip took over they were in a continual spiral, up and down, mostly down.  Then he died....

     

    Finding a new GM that will turn the Twins around is going to be  a crap shoot.

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    You do realize that Kepler, Sano, Jorge and Polanco were all signed by Bill Smith, right? 

    You do realize they were teenagers when TR took over, right? When the new Angel GM took over he inherited Trout and Pujols. When the new Tiger GM took over he inherited Miggy and Verlander. The new Seattle GM inherited Cano. Who got the short end of the stick?

    Edited by howieramone2
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    You do realize they were teenagers when TR took over, right? When the new Angel GM took over he inherited Trout and Pujols. When the new Tiger GM took over he inherited Miggy and Verlander. Who got the short end of the stick?

     

    I don't understand your point but that is not new.  My response was directly related to the poster arguing that the system was rebuilt by Ryan not only because they picked top 6 every year.  The farm system was rebuilt nearly solely on Bill Smith international signings and top 6 picks, evidenced by the top prospects nearly all fitting into one of those categories

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    That's basically the same argument as:

     Well X would be better than Sidney Ponson

    No, it's not. Someone from the Twins has to be involved with the hiring of a baseball operations manager. The actual baseball guys should weigh in on the subject.

     

    That doesn't mean you listen to everything they say and you cross-examine their choices with outside consultants but they're the people who actually understand the game.

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    One more thought. Be careful what you wish for, as in TR being fired.

     

    How many YEARS and coaches and GM's and wasted first round draft picks has it taken for the Timberwolves to get to this point?  Until Flip took over they were in a continual spiral, up and down, mostly down.  Then he died....

     

    Finding a new GM that will turn the Twins around is going to be  a crap shoot.

     

    Not acting out of fear is a terrible way to lead a business (or your life).

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    No, it's not. Someone from the Twins has to be involved with the hiring of a baseball operations manager. The actual baseball guys should weigh in on the subject.

     

    That doesn't mean you listen to everything they say and you cross-examine their choices with outside consultants but they're the people who actually understand the game.

     

    I'd like this, but your sw won't let me....

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    You do realize that Kepler, Sano, Jorge and Polanco were all signed by Bill Smith, right? 

     

    Yeah, that's why I use the TR/Twins throughout. I also think it's impossible to think of the Bill Smith era without including TR. He was a senior advisor involved in the decision-making process and the guy making the final call was his protege. I think it's fair to give TR some credit/responsibility for the Smith era.

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    I won't enter your larger debate, but most every team finds a few interesting guys like this occasionally.  Usually it's more about the other team needing to unload the player, like the DFA'd Eduardo Nunez or the soon-to-be-expensive Tommy Milone, and less about any "amazing" skill on the part of the acquiring team.

     

    Agreed. I'm not sitting here saying that TR should still be there or is a genius. Just saying that it's naïve to say that TR wasn't skilled at finding talent outside of the draft. Every GM does some of it and TR is no exception.

     

    To those points:

     

    Tommy Milone got expensive but I'd still place him in the "well-done" pile as I'm confused why Oakland gave him away. With the way that starting pitching cost has escalated, it isn't until next year that it becomes a no-deal to pay Tommy Milone. He hasn't worked out too well this year but $4.5 million is a pretty cheap price to pay for back of the rotation left-handed depth. If he'd had a better start (and the Twins had better options) he could've been flipped for a minor prospect too. Not saying Tommy had a bright future but he was nice depth at a cheap price.

     

    Eduardo Nunez is more interesting but with the Twins looking to potentially flip him for something interesting at the deadline, he could turn out to be a nice little move.

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    Your top 5 thing makes no sense:

     

    - Few of the Twins best prospects in the high minors/majors were drafted in the Top 5. Berrios was picked late 1st, Rosario/Gonsalves were picked in the 4th and Kepler/Sano/Jorge/Polanco/Thorpe were astute international signings. Yes the Twins have Buxton but to say that the Twins prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks is naïve.
    - And TR should get credit for the Top 5 picks he’s made. Picking in the MLB Top 5 isn't like the NFL or the NBA, where most guys turn out to be at least rotation players. Baseball is more of a crapshoot, even in the top 5. Less than half of top 5 picks become successful players. The Twins should actually get credit for some very astute drafting in the top 5 or 6 as Tyler Jay, Nick Gordon, Kohl Stewart and Buxton all are still legitimate prospects who look to play key roles in the future of the Twins. That isn’t a given and TR and the Twins should get some props for that.

     

    I also think it’s incorrect to say that “practically every attempt TR made to supplement [Top 5] talent went bad.” Terry Ryan has also done many good things acquiring talent in other ways:

     

    - His trades for May and Meyer were good trades. The Twins got legitimate prospects while trading from a place of depth (Revere especially - replacement level player). Just because Meyer has been hurt and May has stagnated a bit this year doesn’t make the value gained in those trades any less. Both players are still part of the Twins plans for the future and besides, you can’t judge a move on how much WAR the player gets. Injuries happen and there are no givens – both of those trades were good value and were smart moves I would do again.
    - Terry Ryan (and Bill Smith before him) is actually pretty amazing at getting value for useless players. TR got Daniel Palka for Chris Hermann (amazing to get anything!), Tommy Milone for Sam Fuld and Nunez for Butera (via Miguel Sulbaran). That’s not super sexy but being able to get something for basically nothing is really pivotal for building a 25 man roster. The Twins have to hope that Anthony is as good getting useful parts for players with limited upside like Plouffe and Suzuki.
    - TR’s done a pretty good job not losing players via the Rule 5, which is harder than it seems when you have lots of young unproven players. TD has slammed him for this but Jones came back from the Brewers and Sean Gilmartin has pretty conclusively shown that last year was a fluke. TR even picked up Ryan Pressly and J.R. Graham from the Rule 5 – Pressly at least seems like a good bullpen option for the Twins to come.
    - Robbie Grossman was a nice pickup who might have some value either as small trade bait or as a 4th OF in the future.

     

    This isn’t to say that you couldn’t highlight mistakes TR has made but it’s really unfair to say that (A.) anyone can pick well in the top 5, (B.) that the Twins enviable prospect depth is based on Top 5 picks and (C.) that TR was unable to add talent outside of high draft picks.

     

    It is likely time for TR to go (though if the Pohldad’s don’t stop being cheapskates I don’t see how the next guy is going to do better than TR – not sure why that isn’t the story) but I think we should give credit where credit is due: TR has done an admirable job restocking the Twins minor league system after it bottomed out in the early 2010s. The Twins are a year or two away from contention but the fact that the future looks that rosy is a testament to TR.

    That was a long post so I didn't read it all but didn't say his best 5 moves were top 5 picks just that it should be easy to find talented kids early in the draft. And who cares how good these kids perform in the minors if they can't play in the bigs? Because unless they can, they're nothing. Buxton, for one, is actually looking like a pretty bad pick. 300 at bats in the bigs and he's flirting w/ the Mendoza line. Saying May and Meyer were good trades is a stretch.

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    It almost seems like the most qualified Twins employee for choosing a new GM just got fired.  The caricatured comments about Pohlad, St. Peter, and even Anthony suggest to me their knowledge of baseball is about that of 12 year olds.  Sigh.

     

    I've said this before, but as a (former) Miami Dolphins fan, I remember how Huizenga bought the team from the Robbie's who had owned it forever.  Huizenga dumped the mediocre stability and past glory of Shula and Marino, brought in the hot item--Jimmy Johnson, and after that didn't produce a quick championship like what Dallas experienced, it's just been one failed regime after another.

     

    Exciting times, I guess.  We'll see.  I'm afraid the second half is now going to really suck, organization wide, as everybody has to be wondering and worrying about the future.

     

     

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