Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account
  • Rotating the Rotation: Is Jose Berrios Coming Up Soon?


    Daniel Wade

    The Twins went into Spring Training with one of the more interesting positional battles on their hands as they had three back-of-the-rotation starters -- Ricky Nolasco, Tyler Duffey, and Tommy Milone -- one of the top pitching prospects with a shot of making the majors this season in Jose Berrios, and just two spots in the rotation.

    The cost savings of starting him in the minors made if fairly likely that Berrios wasn’t going to break camp with the team, but he made the decision an easy one (and removed any chance of filing a grievance over service time the way Cubs third baseman Kris Bryant did last year) by looking fairly pedestrian during his time in big league camp and getting sent down well before last cuts. On the other end of the spectrum, Milone looked strong in his spring outings, solidifying his spot early, and leaving Duffey and Nolasco in a race for the last spot. Nolasco got the nod for a litany of reasons, but it wouldn’t be wrong to suggest that strictly on merit the spot could easily have easily gone to Duffey.

    Image courtesy of Seth Stohs

    Twins Video

    Fast forward a month from Berrios’ demotion and two weeks from the end of spring training: How do the Twins’ decisions look?

    It would be an understatement to say simply that Nolasco has been better than expected. Outside of one bad inning against the Angels, which the Twins managed to work around, Nolasco has given up just two runs in his 20.1 innings of work. His groundball rate is over 50 percent, which would be a career best by a substantial margin if he could keep it up, and he’s dropped his walk rate by nearly a full walk per nine. It’s a bit worrisome that his strikeout rate is well down from his career average -- which wasn’t particularly high to begin with -- but if that’s the tradeoff for his career best soft-contact rate and the improvements in his walk and home run rates, the Twins will take it. He’s not yet to the point of being obvious trade bait, but the Twins don’t need him to be. By the time the team needs his roster spot more than they need his production, a destination may reveal itself.

    The terrible weather in upstate New York has jumbled the Rochester Red Wings’ schedule, but both Duffey and Berrios have gotten in three starts, though both were cut short in their first two outings. Duffey has been largely the same pitcher for the Red Wings so far that he was for the Twins last year: allowing more baserunners than one might like, but preventing them from scoring. By results, he still seems like a pitcher the Twins have tentatively penciled into their long term plan and are glad to have ready in case of injury, but he’s not forcing their hand yet.

    Berrios, on the other hand, is getting sharp. He’s racked up 20 strikeouts in his 17 innings so far, allowed less than a baserunner per inning, and hasn’t allowed more than a run in any of his three starts.

    The "Extra Year" deadline likely having already passed, Berrios could be called up at any point without the Twins risking losing him a year early, especially since it will be another week or so until he’s ready to start again following his seven-inning lockdown of the Pawsox on Thursday. The Twins weren’t just playing a service time game with Berrios, however, these starts were important for him to show that he was ready. He’ll need to look good again in his next outing, but assuming he does, he’s making a compelling case that he’s ready to help the major league team crawl back into contention.

    The question is: Is there a spot for him in the rotation? Ervin Santana and Phil Hughes aren’t going anywhere, which leaves just two theoretical spots, Kyle Gibson’s and Milone’s. Neither pitcher is sporting a positive fWAR so far this season, but it’s something of a blunt tool without a bit more data behind it.

    Gibson’s numbers don’t look great through three starts, but the Twins believe in him with good reason and while his first start was indeed a bomb, but the subsequent two have been much better. His spot’s safe unless he hits the All-Star break with about an 8.90 ERA and a WHIP that looks like a respectable high school GPA. So the timing of Berrios’ appearance in the majors likely depends on Milone.

    Though he earned his spot in camp before Nolasco did, Milone seems as though he may be pulled back into the fray if he can’t right his ship in the next few starts. The optics are admittedly bad: He’s made it out of the fifth inning just once, he has allowed four runs in each of his starts, and he has given up 17 hits in just 15.1 innings pitched despite a BABIP almost precisely at his career average. His lines would look a bit better if he had been pulled after six innings in his start against the Angels instead of allowed to face Albert Pujols and Kole Calhoun, who took him deep, but the core issues would still be there: He’s giving up way too much contact and when 35 percent of it is classified as hard contact, it’s not hard to see why he keeps ending up in trouble.

    Working against Milone is the fact that, even at his best, he’s something of a marginal starter. His lowest ERA in a season is 3.74, he doesn’t strike out a lot of hitters or generate a ton of groundballs; he gets by with timely outs and the occasional double play. He’s a survivor, an innings eater in the best of cases. It’s a profile the Twins have seen before in any number of other back-end-of-the-rotation guys, but their aspirations are higher this year than they’ve been in the recent past, making simply surviving a less desirable outcome, particularly when instead of eating innings, Milone is making extra work for the bullpen.

    Nick Nelson caught a quirk from Milone this year that’s worth mentioning:

    http://i.imgur.com/ZShbmL3.png

    His velocity isn’t changing much the second or third time he’s seeing hitters and his release point is dropping fractionally, but not enough to explain a 900 point increase in opponents’ OPS. Absent those things, which would point to either fatigue or injury, the easiest explanation is that hitters are simply getting a good sense of how his pitches look and/or how he wants to sequence them (Alternatively, Milone could be tipping his pitches, but there aren’t any other symptoms of that). If they know what to expect, they can prepare and punish even decently executed offerings. If it is the case that Milone is simply predictable, it’s liable to get worse before it gets better as advance scouts figure out how best to prepare their players for his patterns.

    If the Twins didn’t have Berrios in the minors and it was just Duffey who presented a serious threat to Milone’s spot, his leash would probably be longer than it is, but with the pitching staff needing a jump-start and Berrios seemingly ready to provide it, Milone’s general malaise surely hasn’t gone unnoticed. It’s good news for Berrios that it’s Milone who is struggling rather than Nolasco, as there are simply fewer ties that bind Milone to the majors. The Twins may not be looking for a reason to change Milone’s usage, but given how his season has gone, they’re also not keen to keep the status quo in place.

    All things considered, the date to circle is May 23. A month away, it gives the Twins a chance to see if there’s something fixable with Milone, be sure that Berrios is ready, and utilize off days for Rochester to line up the rotation they way they want to slot Berrios in with the big club when necessary. The 23rd is also the first time -- assuming the Twins’ rotation doesn’t change -- Milone will face a team for the second time this year. If the Royals show preternatural familiarity with Milone and beat him up, it may force the front office to make a change whether they had planned on it or not.

    MORE FROM TWINS DAILY
    — Latest Twins coverage from our writers
    — Recent Twins discussion in our forums
    — Follow Twins Daily via Twitter, Facebook or email
    — Become a Twins Daily Caretaker

     Share


    User Feedback

    Recommended Comments



    Featured Comments

     

    Does his effectiveness the first time through the order in his last 3 starts really mean anything?

    Sorry, I meant to quote the poster that said he did not want a soft tossing lefty in the pen.  In other words, I too was thinking it screams long reliever.  That's ok.  Milone could provide some value in that role and it makes room for one of Meyer/Berrios/Duffey.

     

    Let's hope Nolasco continues to be great and makes himself marketable.  As long as we are hoping.  Let's hope a contender finds the need top add him and we actually get something for him.  That makes room for 2 of Meyer/Berrios/Duffey.

    Edited by Major Leauge Ready
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Who cares if Milone is out of options? Honestly, why would finding a way to keep him be Amy kind of priority? You can find a beating heart to stand in the mound and lose games in the independent leagues (see Albers, who is Milone-Lite).

    It's mind boggling that there are two young starters lighting up AAA, with excellent stuff, and the Twins continue to run out Tommy Milone, who has been a ticking time bomb with an 88 mph arrow straight fastball for his entire career. The guy has never been a good pitcher. I have never seen semi-advanced sabermetrics be disregarded in such a way, when talking about a player and their value (by most fans).

    Only the Twins front office would make a decision that's this deplorable. I'm sorry,
    but that's just a fact. Throw the starting pitchers that the Twins have at their disposal I to another system, and there wouldn't be a single one that would continue to run out Tommy Milone when they've had a top 10 pitching prospect ready for The majors since mid-2015 (Berrios), and another very good prospect who has already spent half a season as the team's best pitcher (Duffey).

    It would be totally different if the Twins were 12-5 at this point. But, TR is sitting and watching this team in a tailspin, on the verge of being completely out of hope before May, and its nothing but status quo....which was FUBAR to begin with.

    If this season doesnt epitomize the reasons why TR needs to go, I don't know what more can be done (The bullpen situation, the Sano/Park debacle, the Duffey/Berrios set-up out of ST). Does he need to set the all-time loss record for someone other than a few fans to take notice of how utterly incompetent he is when it comes to managing an MLB roster?

     

    You left Alex Meyer (and May) out of your calculus, Darius.

     

    (Both could have been force-fed into the rotation in mid-2014 at a time when they absolutely dominated AAA, in which case they would both be much farther along their developmental timeline.)

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    David Murphy

     

    Remember when people said Berrios couldn't be called up because the 40 man roster was so precious and he wasn't on it? And then the Twins released a needed catcher from it so they could add a 34 year old left handed hitting corner OF/Dh of which they already have 3 who are better and potentially part of the future (Arcia, Rosario, Kepler)?

     

    That was fun. This season has been fun

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Remember when people said Berrios couldn't be called up because the 40 man roster was so precious and he wasn't on it? And then the Twins released a needed catcher from it so they could add a 34 year old left handed hitting corner OF/Dh of which they already have 3 who are better and potentially part of the future (Arcia, Rosario, Kepler)?

     

    That was fun. This season has been fun

     

    This latest move on HIcks is head-scratching, given how long they usually hold on to such prototypical (non)-catching prospect entities like Chris Hermann.

     

    Perhaps it's Murphy's "veteraniness" they prize even more?

     

    In order to fill that clubhouse void left in the wake of Hunter's retirement?

     

    (I mean post-game dance parties don't start themselves up in a vacuum.)

     

    Or maybe they're operating on the theory that: "Two Murphy's Are Better Than One"?

     

    (FWIW- Hermann's hitting prowess with the D-Backs is putting JR Murphy to utter shame- given his 2016 hitting line- .125/.192/.333/(.525))

    Edited by jokin
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    This latest move on HIcks is head-scratching, given how long they usually hold on to such prototypical (non)-catching prospect entities like Chris Hermann.

     

    Perhaps it's Murphy's "veteraniness" they prize even more?

     

    In order to fill that clubhouse void left in the wake of Hunter's retirement?

     

    (I mean post-game dance parties don't start themselves up in a vacuum.)

     

    Or maybe they're operating on the theory that: "Two Murphy's Are Better Than One"?

     

    (FWIW- Hermann's hitting prowess with the D-Backs is putting JR Murphy to utter shame- given his 2016 hitting line- .125/.192/.333/(.525))

     

    If someone has a logical explanation for why they are under the assumption David Murphy is needed, I'm all ears.  

     

    I keep hearing through the FO mouth pieces in the media that he was signed to "send a message" to the young guys like Buxton.  But he isn't a Buxton replacement, if the Twins want to demote Buxton they have Santana being activated, and Kepler should be the every day CFer in that scenario.  

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    If someone has a logical explanation for why they are under the assumption David Murphy is needed, I'm all ears.  

     

    I keep hearing through the FO mouth pieces in the media that he was signed to "send a message" to the young guys like Buxton.  But he isn't a Buxton replacement, if the Twins want to demote Buxton they have Santana being activated, and Kepler should be the every day CFer in that scenario.  

     

    Perhaps Twins management couldn't resist basking in the irony of yet another strategically-planned "Hicks for Murphy" swap?

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    If someone has a logical explanation for why they are under the assumption David Murphy is needed, I'm all ears.  

     

    I keep hearing through the FO mouth pieces in the media that he was signed to "send a message" to the young guys like Buxton.  But he isn't a Buxton replacement, if the Twins want to demote Buxton they have Santana being activated, and Kepler should be the every day CFer in that scenario.  

     

    FWIW- Look for both Buxton and Kepler riding the same jet back to Rochester very soon. Santana is eligible to come off of the DL today.*

     

    * MN Twins version of a roster "Shake-Up" TM

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    FWIW- Look for both Buxton and Kepler riding the same jet back to Rochester very soon. Santana is eligible to come off of the DL today.*

     

    * MN Twins version of a roster "Shake-Up" TM

     

    I'm as ready as I can be, because I fully expect that to happen.  

     

    All of their problems will be solved with a Murphy - Rosario - Sano outfield! And Danny Santana ready to fill in 5 times a week*  Arcia on the bench obviously because he had a bad game once last week

     

     

    *Let's just ignore that Rosario and Santana are as bad of hitters as the current version of Buxton

    Edited by alarp33
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    The lack of foresight over the last year or two has been just awful.

    Perkins declining and Jepsen pitching much better than reality last year. They don't sign anyone.

    Plouffe and Sano.

    The extra bodies around the rotation and tendering guys like Milone.

    The outfield defense with both Sano and Arcia in it. The log jam between OF, 1b, and DH and the Park signing.

     

    That's a lot of hindsight too though, which has the benefit of being 20/20. To varying degrees those are all justifiable. In order of justifiableness:

     

    (1) Milone was cheap and is a decent back of the rotation starter. The Twins weren’t going to use that money for anything else (they were not going to sign a 3 year reliever for other reasons – right or wrong – and there’s nowhere else you would see them obviously spending that money) so it’s not a waste of money. The Twins have a lot of pitching now but that wasn’t a given – Duffey and Berrios were young, the Twins wanted May in the pen and Nolasco is Rick Freaking Nolasco. It wasn’t crazy to spend so little to bring back another option. The mistake will come if the Twins aren’t ready to move on from Milone in the next few weeks if he continues to not be the best option. And there’s where Milone makes the most sense: as a lefty starter he is easily traded for a low level prospect whenever you want out or he could fit in as a lefty long reliever (especially nice for a team with all right handed starters).

     

    (2) I also don’t think we should judge the Twins too harshly (yet) on Plouffe and Sano. The Twins had so many unknowns coming into this year: was Park a major leaguer? was Arcia the 2014 version or the 2015 version? was Rosario’s 2015 a mirage? would Buxton be unplayable a the ML level? was Kepler ready for the bigs? would Mauer force himself out of the lineup? For that reason, Plouffe represented some decent foresight actually. He was stability in case several of those questions went the wrong way – especially because there wasn’t a good offseason trade offer for him. Weirdly, though the Twins season has been disappointing thus far, all of those questions above have more-or-less worked out positively. Park, Buxton and Rosario all seem like major leaguers (if not prospering ones in all cases), Arcia has put himself back on the map, Joe has found the Fountain of Youth and even Kepler looks good. I think you can get mad at the Twins if they haven’t figured out the log jam by the deadline but I think getting upset about Plouffe/Sano and the logjam is the benefit of hindsight – it wasn’t a given that things would work out so well and Plouffe could get a much better haul at the deadline.

     

    (3) Jepsen has not been as good this year but he was a fine addition at the deadline last year - they didn't give up an insane amount to get him and they had another year of control. The fair criticism might be not getting another reliever last year for the pennant run or not signing a 3 year reliever this year. Though on that last part, I think we need to give it some time. If Chargois and some of the other younger guys come up and are great, we’re going to be glad there was an extra spot for them.  So I get this one but I don’t think it qualifies as awful foresight.

     

    (4) Sano and Arcia in the OF. They have looked not good but I think the Twins never expected to be playing the two of them together quite as much as they have. Buxton’s injury and Rosario’s results not demanding everyday playing time have contributed to this happening. It’s not ideal but I also don’t think it’s a long term solution and certainly wasn’t something the Twins were planning on relying on so much.

     

    (5) Most defendable foresight criticism is Perkins.  I’ve been wishing they'd traded Perkins for years now but I get why they haven’t.  He's a hometown guy and was a big draw when the Twins were terrible. It's easy (and likely correct?) to think that decisions should be made purely with business in mind but in reality, Perk is a hometown guy loved by fans and it's hard to trade him. The same thing will be true of Dozier if Polanco looks good, for better or for worse. So I agree on the lack of foresight but I think it’s worthwhile to understand the human aspect of things here. And to start hoping the Twins learn their lesson if Polanco keeps hitting.

     

     

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    I think Berrios still needs a few more starts to show that he is done with AAA but he has been about as consistent with his success as any prospect I've seen. If someone doesn't get hurt I would make a spot for him soon. Surprisingly the spot he might take is gibsons

     

    They believe in Gibson long-term. Barring some injury to him, I think Tommy Milone is the guy out for Berrios by mid-May.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    By the time they call up the young RPs, they will be out of the race. They aimed low on catcher, and the bullpen, and they are getting what they deserved. If you are going to argue they weren't ever competitive this year anyway, why sign a 29 / 30 year old DH, and not start with some youth in the bullpen? 

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    Only the Twins front office would make a decision that's this deplorable. I'm sorry, but that's just a fact.

     

    I don't disagree with what you're saying overall (though I think that Tommy Milone is sharkbait with one or maybe two more starts so I think we should show a small bit of patience before we start throwing the lifeboats overboard) but this made me laugh. That is an opinion, not a fact. And I'm not sure that you'd be able to even defend it as true. There are undoubtedly many other front offices that make terrible decisions as well, the Twins are not unique in making decisions that the casual fan doesn't understand. (The Phillies? The Marlins? The Padres?)

     

    Enjoyable hyperbole but worth noting what is and is not a fact.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    With Milone not even getting through the 5th last night, again, does Berrios debut at home on Sunday vs the Tigers? 

     

    Who do you think makes that Sunday start; 

     

    Milone

    Berrios

    Meyer

    Duffey

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    With Milone not even getting through the 5th last night, again, does Berrios debut at home on Sunday vs the Tigers? 

     

    Who do you think makes that Sunday start; 

     

    Milone

    Berrios

    Meyer

    Duffey

    I know they don't like to skip the 5th starter spot, but that could be an option with the off day Thursday and rain forecast for the rest of this homestand.

    Still, I'd guess they'd just let Milone make the start.  TR's quote about Murphy clearly suggests they weren't planning to promote Berrios.  Putting Meyer in the pen (and not using him, despite a relatively early exit by Milone) suggests they're not eager to give him a start.  And while Duffey's spot start Sunday looked like it was due to timing (his turn lining up with Santana's), keeping Duffey around beyond that game seems to suggest they view him at the "6th starter" at this point, first in line for any rotation openings.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    I know they don't like to skip the 5th starter spot, but that could be an option with the off day Thursday and rain forecast for the rest of this homestand.

    Still, I'd guess they'd just let Milone make the start. TR's quote about Murphy clearly suggests they weren't planning to promote Berrios. Putting Meyer in the pen (and not using him, despite a relatively early exit by Milone) suggests they're not eager to give him a start. And while Duffey's spot start Sunday looked like it was due to timing (his turn lining up with Santana's), keeping Duffey around beyond that game seems to suggest they view him at the "6th starter" at this point, first in line for any rotation openings.

    And that is another reason Terry Ryan needs to go. Berrios is ready NOW. If Berrios was on any other MLB club he would have already been called up last year and may have been in the rotation this year. But penny pinching Ryan doesn't want to bring Berrios up this year at all. He wants Berrios to be a September call up NEXT year. Berrios right now is better than Duffey IMO and has been far and away more consistent than Alex Meyer has ever been. So what if Berrios is young for making his MLB debut? Didn't Stephen Strasberg pitch like the equivalent of 1 year in the minors before he was called up? This is year 4 of Berrios in the minors and there is NO WAY Ryan needs to see another full season of AAA ball to determine if Berrios is ready. If Ryan so on the fence with Berrios he might as well trade him away because it seems pretty clear Berrios really doesn't have a future here.
    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    With Milone not even getting through the 5th last night, again, does Berrios debut at home on Sunday vs the Tigers? 

     

    Who do you think makes that Sunday start; 

     

    Milone

    Berrios

    Meyer

    Duffey

     

    .... I would have expected Alex Meyer to be the 1st guy called out of the bullpen.  With a depleted bullpen and the fact that Meyer was already stretched out as a starter, him taking over for Milone was the only move that would have made sense to me.

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

     

    .... I would have expected Alex Meyer to be the 1st guy called out of the bullpen.  With a depleted bullpen and the fact that Meyer was already stretched out as a starter, him taking over for Milone was the only move that would have made sense to me.

    And if Meyer doesn't pitch tonight in relief of Nolasco, he will effectively miss his turn and may not be ready to start Sunday either (assuming he sees some relief work Wednesday-Saturday).

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites

    With Milone not even getting through the 5th last night, again, does Berrios debut at home on Sunday vs the Tigers? 

     

    Who do you think makes that Sunday start; 

     

    Milone

    Berrios

    Meyer

    Duffey

    Milone: 75%

    Duffey: 20%

    Meyer: < 5%

    Berrios: monkeys

    Link to comment
    Share on other sites




    Join the conversation

    You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
    Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

    Guest
    Add a comment...

    ×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

      Only 75 emoji are allowed.

    ×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

    ×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

    ×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

    Loading...

×
×
  • Create New...