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  • No Garcia Trade: Braves Balk At Twins’ Prospect’s Health

    Parker Hageman

    By Parker Hageman

    The reason Jaime Garcia pitched a gem in an Atlanta Braves uniform last night -- adding a grand slam at the plate for good measure -- rather than making travel arrangements to Minnesota appears to be because the Braves had concerns regarding the prospect the Twins made available in the trade talks.

    Image courtesy of Kirby Lee-USA TODAY Sports

    Twins Video

    According to Fox Sports’ Ken Rosenthal, the trade stalled “due to Braves’ medical concern on Twins’ prospect.”

    The trade was first made public on Thursday, when Rosenthal tweeted that the Twins and Braves were “close” on a Garcia trade. This report was confirmed by several members of the local media. However, as time passed it became clear that the two sides were not necessarily as close as first reported. On Friday afternoon, MLB.com’s Mark Bowman tweeted that the Braves were talking to other teams about Garcia and that a trade with the Twins at that point was “not probable”.

    The focus on the medical reports potentially indicate that the Braves and Twins were discussing a pitching prospect that has had a recent injury history. While the Twins player in question may never be known, purely speculative, Kohl Stewart is a higher profile prospect that has had in-season health issues. The list of recently injured pitching prospects doesn't end there. Regardless of the identity of the player, the Twins seemingly lose a bargaining chip.

    UPDATE: Ken Rosenthal tweets that Nick Burdi was the prospect in question.

    https://twitter.com/ken_rosenthal/status/888828263950422016

    There is still the possibility that the two sides come to a consensus on an alternative trade piece for Garcia but, for now, it would seem that the Twins will have to look elsewhere for a member of the rotation.

    Follow Parker Hageman on Twitter: HagemanParker

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    Featured Comments

    nicksaviking

    nicksaviking 26,755

  • Community Moderator

    • Posted

    With due respect to Ken Rosenthal's source, it makes no sense to get that close to a trade and have it hung up on medical issues in the case of Nick Burdi. I find it hard to believe they didn't already know he had TJS and what the potential ramifications of that were.

    After nearly every sports surgery in all of mankind's history, the team and player call the procedure "a success!!!".

     

    I'd guess sometimes they are exaggerating.

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    Thrylos

    Thrylos 8,325

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted (edited)

     

    Thorpe makes the most sense based on the Braves strong interest in Australia. It wouldn't surprise me if it was Jay as well. Perhaps Brusdar Graterol as well.

     

    Why don't you throw in Gonsalves and Romero as well....

     

    Graterol should be as close to untouchable as anything in the Twins' organization, because he has the highest ceiling of any of their pitching prospects (albeit comes with more risk than someone like Romero)

     

    Jay (and Burdi) should be anchoring the tail end of the Twins' pen for a long time, not traded for a rental.   Glad that it did not happen with Burdi.

     

    The Braves gave to the Cardinals the following for Garcia:  Luke Dykstra, Chris Ellis, and John Gant.

     

    Dykstra has a career .687 OPS in 4 seasons and just reached high A
    Ellis has a career 4.94 ERA in 4 minor league seasons and he is in AAA
    Gant was a mop up man, and spot starter with 4.86 ERA in 20 games (7 starts)

     

    For half the season, half of the value of the above, that would be either Ellis or Gant and Dykstra.

     

    In other words in Twins' comparables, either someone like Slegers or someone like Haley and Sean Miller.

     

    Not anyone with real potential. 

    Edited by Thrylos
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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

    Possible, but Rosenthal's explanation seems pretty straightforward.

    Straightforward, but also seems incomplete. Seth had Burdi as our #19 prospect, and that was before the draft. He was known to have missed most of 2016 with a bone bruise, and then had TJ surgery in May. I could see him being discussed for this trade, but unlikely that his medicals alone would torpedo it.

     

    Was he the only top ~30 prospect the Twins were willing to consider dealing? Did the Twins hope to get some salary covered, or get an interesting minor leaguer back in return?

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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

    For half the season, half of the value of the above, that would be either Ellis or Gant and Dykstra.

    I won't quibble about these guys, but I do want to say this isn't how valuation works. Garcia was guaranteed more money last winter, was not as removed from his injuries, was coming off a suspect performance trend in 2016 -- and the Braves (and other teams that may have pursued him last winter) had less probability of contention in 2017 than the Twins and other teams have today. It is quite likely that Garcia should return more value in trade now than he did last winter.

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    drjim

    drjim 7,100

  • Provisional Member

    • Posted

    Straightforward, but also seems incomplete. Seth had Burdi as our #19 prospect, and that was before the draft. He was known to have missed most of 2016 with a bone bruise, and then had TJ surgery in May. I could see him being discussed for this trade, but unlikely that his medicals alone would torpedo it.

     

    Was he the only top ~30 prospect the Twins were willing to consider dealing? Did the Twins hope to get some salary covered, or get an interesting minor leaguer back in return?

    The first question is certainly interesting and probably unknowable by non front office people. The second part is certainly interesting, but probably moot if the Braves aren't willing to take on Burdi.

     

    Perhaps Seth underrated Burdi?

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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

    Headline: Garcia pitched a great game last night.

    Reality: 3 runs in 7 innings is an ERA close to 4 without pitching to a DH.

    Blah.

     

    Falvey - I'm ordering you not to trade any high potential player.

    NL league ERA is 4.34 this year. Starter ERA is 4.46. A 3.86 ERA, in 7 innings, against the best offense in the NL (by wRC+), is pretty good. And it wasn't necessarily luck, as he also had a 2.44 FIP. Only took 91 pitches to get through 7 too, he could have possibly gone 8+ innings under different circumstances.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    Maybe, but that's being stupid-picky. I'm not one to usually overvalue prospects but I'd be immensely disappointed if the Twins let Thorpe go for a middling starter rental.

     

    Like I said, I understand. I just know they started the year with their two A-ball teams having paired starters because there were so many starters needing work, especially left handed starters.

     

    I would love to see Thorpe in the Braves system. I'm happy I get to cover him in the Twins system. Win-win for me! LOL

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    Headline: Garcia pitched a great game last night.

    Reality: 3 runs in 7 innings is an ERA close to 4 without pitching to a DH.

    Blah.

     

    Falvey - I'm ordering you not to trade any high potential player.

     

    He did throw a tremendous game. If you watched the game, you would have seen the way he attacked the Dodgers hitters was something that hasn't happened to them in ages, so much so that their announcer (who is tremendous, btw) mentioned it multiple times. He was through 5 innings on less than 65 pitches. I think he could have been pulled earlier, but he had been through five without stress and worked through issues quickly all game.

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    Otto von Ballpark

    Otto von Ballpark 20,320

  • Community Leader

    • Posted

    The first question is certainly interesting and probably unknowable by non front office people. The second part is certainly interesting, but probably moot if the Braves aren't willing to take on Burdi.

     

    Perhaps Seth underrated Burdi?

    Perhaps -- Sickels had him 11th, at C+/B-, but that was before TJ.

     

    I'd be pretty surprised if the Braves valued him higher than that, but backed away based on medicals.

     

    My gut feeling says the Braves were indeed concerned enough about the medicals to back away from the deal... but the Twins had already set up the contraints/parameters of said deal.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    From what I mentioned on Cory's podcast, the Braves have a habit of targeting certain players, so it would make sense that they came to the Twins looking to get Burdi. The Twins then balked at something in Garcia's medicals and asked the Braves to pay more, based on people I know within the Braves. That suddenly made Burdi's medicals much more vital to the deal, and when they didn't come back clean, the Braves backed away.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    Were there any reports they were ever eating money?

     

    Multiple beat guys on both sides had tweets about negotiations about how much money would be split. I'd have to search for it, which is not something I'm going to worry to much about at this point with the deal dead, but it was discussed.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    some teams are so damn picky

     

    I'd wager it was a flyer and the Braves wouldn't have even cared all that much on medicals when the Twins were paying every dollar, but when the Braves were taking on cash, they were more picky about those medicals.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    My bet is that it hinged on an extension being signed and this is the easy way for both sides to save face and come up with a plausible excuse for the fan base.

     

    I'd give that possibility a plausibility score of about 0.00000000001%

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    Rosterman

    Rosterman 3,922

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Well, when you look at Burdi, the earliest he MIGHT be ready is 2019, and you do have to start about thought on addng him to the 40-mam. Make that someone else's issue for a couple of years and revisit him yourself down the line. Whatever team see Burdi will have to be thinking the same.

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    Riverbrian

    Riverbrian 32,096

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

     

    I'd wager it was a flyer and the Braves wouldn't have even cared all that much on medicals when the Twins were paying every dollar, but when the Braves were taking on cash, they were more picky about those medicals.

     

    If cash is complicating this. I can't help wonder why. 

     

    He's a rental. Just pay it. 

     

    4 point whatever million. This is MLB Baseball and it's the price you pay for being in contention.  

     

    If Money determines quality of prospect. Get the checkbook out and keep the higher ranked prospects at the same time. 

     

     

     

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    If cash is complicating this. I can't help wonder why. 

     

    He's a rental. Just pay it. 

     

    4 point whatever million. This is MLB Baseball and it's the price you pay for being in contention.  

     

    If Money determines quality of prospect. Get the checkbook out and keep the higher ranked prospects at the same time. 

     

    Absolutely always my perspective.

     

    There is no such thing as a bad one year deal. If all else fails, you cut the guy before the year is done and eat the entire year early. You know you're getting rid of the guy at year-end anyway. When you know he's a rental, pay the cash, go for less of a prospect (or in this case the likelihood of the Braves not opening the book on Burdi's medicals and cancelling the deal).

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    Riverbrian

    Riverbrian 32,096

  • Old-Timey Member

    • Posted

     

    Absolutely always my perspective.

     

    There is no such thing as a bad one year deal. If all else fails, you cut the guy before the year is done and eat the entire year early. You know you're getting rid of the guy at year-end anyway. When you know he's a rental, pay the cash, go for less of a prospect (or in this case the likelihood of the Braves not opening the book on Burdi's medicals and cancelling the deal).

     

    I think I get it now... It's a profit deal

    hqdefault.jpg

     

     

     

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    jimbo92107

    jimbo92107 7,419

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    They probably looked at Stewart's numbers! 30bb to only 33k in 52 innings. I'd pass too. Nothing against him personally but I just do not get why this guy is rated so highly.

    If you're looking for an even trade, why send the Braves an above average, young pitching prospect for a below average, veteran mlb pitcher?

     

    The Braves are at the early stages of their rebuild. The Twins are still a year from serious contention. Trading Burdi (or other guys a couple years out) makes more sense for the Twins than trading Stewart, who could be a solid mid-rotation starter next season and under contract for a few years beyond. 

     

    It's still a bad move to start selling the farm for half a year of service. The Twins ain't going to the Series in 2017, oh my dog brothers. But that Jiffy Pop of minor league talent might start poppin' next spring. I expect to see more than a couple more guys get their feet wet with coffee come September.

     

    We all expect to see Gonsalves, right? Today's rotation is Santana, Berrios, Mejia, Gibson, Colon. Gonsalves is better than the last three of those guys right now. Sleegers is probably better than Colon. Jorge will gradually get better, so he should go to AAA. We should see Garver for sure. 

     

    Anyway, the Twins are still in the experimenting stage of building a possible Series contender. One year rentals like Garcia will not be part of that team, but some of the guys in AAA and AA right now may become pieces of the puzzle. Atlanta wants some of those pieces. I say screw them. 

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    diehardtwinsfan

    diehardtwinsfan 14,830

  • Community Moderator

    • Posted

    For all the talk about the playoffs being a crapshoot, the reality is that this team has 20 MLBers on it's 25 man roster and the missing 5 are all pitchers. Garcia may be average, but an average starter is of considerable value. Burdi wasn't a name I suspected given the surgery, but I'd probably be willing to part with him for a rental. We have plenty of RP talent in the high minors, and while it's been frustrating to see it, Burdi has been one of the most frustrating given how often he seems to get hurt.

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    If you're looking for an even trade, why send the Braves an above average, young pitching prospect for a below average, veteran mlb pitcher?

     

    The Braves are at the early stages of their rebuild. The Twins are still a year from serious contention. Trading Burdi (or other guys a couple years out) makes more sense for the Twins than trading Stewart, who could be a solid mid-rotation starter next season and under contract for a few years beyond. 

     

    It's still a bad move to start selling the farm for half a year of service. The Twins ain't going to the Series in 2017, oh my dog brothers. But that Jiffy Pop of minor league talent might start poppin' next spring. I expect to see more than a couple more guys get their feet wet with coffee come September.

     

    We all expect to see Gonsalves, right? Today's rotation is Santana, Berrios, Mejia, Gibson, Colon. Gonsalves is better than the last three of those guys right now. Sleegers is probably better than Colon. Jorge will gradually get better, so he should go to AAA. We should see Garver for sure. 

     

    Anyway, the Twins are still in the experimenting stage of building a possible Series contender. One year rentals like Garcia will not be part of that team, but some of the guys in AAA and AA right now may become pieces of the puzzle. Atlanta wants some of those pieces. I say screw them. 

     

    You do realize that the Braves and Twins have basically the same record, right?

     

    The AL has been so mediocre this year that there's everyone hanging around the middle, leaving the Twins very near playoff contention while the Braves are roughly 10 games out of contention with nearly the same record.

     

    Also, the Braves aren't at any "early stages", either. The team is expecting to compete for playoffs in 2018 and have financials set up to be able to possibly make a splash going into 2019 to push for a big piece for contention if needed. The top prospects in the system are primarily in AA/AAA or already getting major league time.

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    amjgt

    amjgt 3,009

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

    Anyone remember the prospect the Twins dealt in 2015 to get Jensen? He's in the majors now and could be a decent starter or reliever.

    8 innings in 4 relief appearances

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    biggentleben

    biggentleben 2,583

  • Verified Member

    • Posted

     

    For all the talk about the playoffs being a crapshoot, the reality is that this team has 20 MLBers on it's 25 man roster and the missing 5 are all pitchers. Garcia may be average, but an average starter is of considerable value. Burdi wasn't a name I suspected given the surgery, but I'd probably be willing to part with him for a rental. We have plenty of RP talent in the high minors, and while it's been frustrating to see it, Burdi has been one of the most frustrating given how often he seems to get hurt.

     

    Burdi was surprising to me on the Braves end for pretty much all the reasons you mention...

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    nicksaviking

    nicksaviking 26,755

  • Community Moderator

    • Posted

    For all the talk about the playoffs being a crapshoot, the reality is that this team has 20 MLBers on it's 25 man roster and the missing 5 are all pitchers. Garcia may be average, but an average starter is of considerable value. Burdi wasn't a name I suspected given the surgery, but I'd probably be willing to part with him for a rental. We have plenty of RP talent in the high minors, and while it's been frustrating to see it, Burdi has been one of the most frustrating given how often he seems to get hurt.

    Is a soft tosser with an increasing walk issue going to be average in the AL though? He looks like the kind of guy who will be a liability in short order.

     

    I don't have an issue losing Burdi, I just think the odds of this guy actually patching a hole are quite slim. Isn't this basically replacing Hector Santiago with a softer tossing Hector Santiago who's only pitched in the NL.

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