MIN 8, DET 2: Gonsalves Stymies Tigers

I like the Tigers.

Gabriel Moya made his fourth start of the season and Gonsalves served as the primary pitcher. I don’t really get stacking lefties in this case. Why not go with a right-hander in front of Gonsalves? Also, the only dangerous hitter in Detroit’s lineup right now is Nicholas Castellanos, who hit third today. He’s a right-handed hitter who has an .857 career OPS vs. lefties and a .753 mark against same-sided pitchers. Since that’s the guy you’re most worried about beating you, why not open with a right-hander?

i'm guessing that, at least in theory, it's so the primary pitcher delays seeing the top of the order for a third time. in other words, in a perfect game, he'd only see the 1, 2 and 3 hitters two times.

Nice to see Gonsalves showing, coming on the heels of Stewart's improvement.  While I don't hold out hope they are aces in the making, I do hope they turn out to be more useful than they'd been up to now.

On the other side, same thing--Austin and Astudillo and Adrianza might have a place next year.  Anyway, winning four in a row is nice.

Just in case there was any doubt about how bad the Tigers are.

I hate the opener strategy.

I hate the opener strategy.

I don't like it in principle but it's kinda an interesting way to get young pitchers feet wet at the major league level.  If it works heck why not.  

Please compare Gonsalves WPA of .157 with last night's WPA of Ordorizi (.240) and then compare the innings pitched, hits, BB, SO, earned runs, etc. and explain to me why Ordorizi's WPA was so much higher than Gonsalves' WPA today.

We know Gonsalves and Stewart could handle AAA batters, the Tigers being, maybe AAAA are a step up and a good proving grounds, but there is a long way to go for too much optimism.  Hate to be a downer, but the Twins do not deserve a lot of leeway at this point.  Just keep putting the young guys out there. 

Please compare Gonsalves WPA of .157 with last night's WPA of Ordorizi (.240) and then compare the innings pitched, hits, BB, SO, earned runs, etc. and explain to me why Ordorizi's WPA was so much higher than Gonsalves' WPA today.

Gonsalves had a 4-0 lead before he threw a pitch. Odorizzi pitched 5 innings in a 0-0 tie. Higher leverage = higher WPA. That’s simply how that stat works.

Gonsalves had a 4-0 lead before he threw a pitch. Odorizzi pitched 5 innings in a 0-0 tie. Higher leverage = higher WPA. That’s simply how that stat works.

Please explain more. This seems to give a pitcher credit for something he has no control over, i.e. his team's lack of ability to score runs/ The less his team scores, the more credit the pitcher gets. What am I missing?

OK, OK. I have now read Fan Graphs' definition of and explanation for WPA.  In my previous comments I have successfully exhibited my ignorance of WPA to all the readers of TD. Perfect! I will now change my name and join the ignorant posters protection plan.

I actually kind of dig it.  I just think it's so interesting.  

Now that Moya has successfully started a couple without pooping all over himself, I'm kind of okay with it--as a sort of training wheels type of thing for young pitchers.  I prefer a set, one inning deal--let the main starter be assured he will be starting the second, to give a semblance of normalcy to it all.  I would think the certainty would help, rather than stewing for another inning while the opener is cruising through some "easy outs" that could have been his.

Then, some day, Gonsalves and Stewart could look forward to being full-fledged members of the rotation--the day when they get to start the first.  Just another carrot.

My first take on yesterday's game is to remember that we were playing the Tigers.  They are not a good team, plus they were without Niko Goodrum.

I like the energy Willians Astudillo brings to the game.  Not only is he a decent hitter, he can play several positions while also being a capable catcher.  The Twins need to find a way to have 13 position players next year with Astudillo a leading candidate for #13.  If not, he certainly should remain on the 40-man roster and be in Rochester to fill in when/if one of their catchers is injured.  He does have options available, doesn't he?

Also liked Gonsalves performance yesterday.  This September has been an excellent opportunity for him, Stewart, DeJong and Littell, to get their feet wet.  This month should give the Twins FO enough information to assist in their planning for 2019.  Is it realistic to expect that they can find a #5 starter from this group, including Romero, Mejia and Slegers?  Has one performed well enough that they may interest another team so they can be a part of a bigger off-season trade?  With Thorpe and Graterol also on the horizon, maybe the Twins put together a package to bring in a young quality starter who can improve the #3 spot in their rotation next year and beyond.  [i am not suggesting they trade Thorpe or Graterol.]  It is likely that 7 players vying for one starting spot is too many and some type of move is necessary.

Twins have averted a bad September finish by winning 4 straight but are still 8-10 for the month.  Only 10 to go with last 7 at home v Tigers and White Sox. I think how they finish will say a lot about how they do next year. How about at least 1 in Oakland and then 5-2 on the final home stand. Not too much to ask.

Glorified AAA lineup for Tigers yesterday, but Gonsalves still looked much better.  He and Stewart both seem to be improving with their command.  At this point, we'll take any signs of positivity we can get!

I don't like it in principle but it's kinda an interesting way to get young pitchers feet wet at the major league level. If it works heck why not.

 

>hmm 45

>oh that’s the opener guy, no score for Gonsalves

The opener skews stats, ruins the feel of the game for me (and millions of others I’m sure)

Gonsalves is a potential longterm good, crafty lefty (rather than a fireballer) in MLB. I hope the Twins don't muck things up by signing Lance Lynn-types in FA.  Let the younger pitchers fight it out for a spot in the rotation. 

Do wins matter at this time of year?  I am more interested in the young arms and wishing we had some young players at bat and in the field.  What am I missing.  Does it matter how far we are from 500 or that we can beat Detroit and the White Sox?  The only reason I do not care about the opener now is that at least we see another pitcher, but why not some other guys.  I really do not want the opener to care over to next year, but I am okay with it now.  

As the season winds down I am even more mystified with the lack of call ups - Reed and Anderson in the pen, Wade and Gordon in the field.  I do not care about the minor league stats, they need to be seen and given some exposure to the Twins.  

Do wins matter at this time of year? I am more interested in the young arms and wishing we had some young players at bat and in the field. What am I missing. Does it matter how far we are from 500 or that we can beat Detroit and the White Sox? The only reason I do not care about the opener now is that at least we see another pitcher, but why not some other guys. I really do not want the opener to care over to next year, but I am okay with it now.

 

As the season winds down I am even more mystified with the lack of call ups - Reed and Anderson in the pen, Wade and Gordon in the field. I do not care about the minor league stats, they need to be seen and given some exposure to the Twins.

Gonsalves and Busenitz dominated AAA. The results at the MLB level are mediocre to poor. What does that say about the chance for success for a guy that did poorly at AAA (Wade and Gordon)?

What is the point of giving someone at bats who will clearly be overmatched? Not to mention starting their service time clocks.

Gonsalves and Busenitz dominated AAA. The results at the MLB level are mediocre to poor. What does that say about the chance for success for a guy that did poorly at AAA (Wade and Gordon)?

What is the point of giving someone at bats who will clearly be overmatched? Not to mention starting their service time clocks.

I cannot equate hitters and pitchers, but it really does not matter to me.  This is not about securing second place in the central division, it is about putting young players in the lineup and seeing them play, even if they fall flat.  I would go a lot further than these two if I had the chance.  I am tired of the keeping control argument.  If someone comes up and is good they will get a contract and an extension.

On the other side, same thing--Austin and Astudillo and Adrianza might have a place next year.  Anyway, winning four in a row is nice.

Austin
Astudillo
Adrianza

They seem like AAA hitters.

>oh look Gonsalves had a great game, let me look at his game score.
>hmm 45
>oh that’s the opener guy, no score for Gonsalves

The opener skews stats, ruins the feel of the game for me (and millions of others I’m sure)

If it meant a dozen fewer runs scored over the course of a season it might translate into an extra win statistically and possible two.     If you knew it would be worth two extra wins over the course of a season would it help you get over the feel of the game issue.  How about one game?    Would be meaningless most seasons but every once in a great while it is the difference in making the playoffs or not.    Would you sacrifice that possibility your traditional view of the game?  Maybe you would and that is fine but maybe you would look at it differently.   Of course the hard part is determining exactly how much it does impact the season.   Didn't work well for a few games and has now worked well for a few.   Those  pluses and minuses should still result in fewer runs over the course of the season.  Again we are talking not a lot of runs but if I thought it was worth a dozen runs over the course of the season I would be for it.   Its not for your front line starters anyway.