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  • GM For A Deadline, Part One


    Jeremy Nygaard

    The All-Star break has been filled with Manny Machado rumors and an eventual deal that is the first domino in what will hopefully be a busy trade season. On Thursday, division leader Cleveland made a move to shore up their bullpen.

    As Twins fans, we’ve seen the hometown team win nine of their last 11, letting that six game skid that preceded the winning streak fade into distant memories. And that’s a problem. The Twins are 7.5 games behind the Indians… and the likelihood of them catching the Indians is extremely low.

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    The idea of supplementing last year’s playoff roster with new additions to the rotation (Jake Odorizzi and Lance Lynn), adding three proven players to the back of the bullpen (Fernando Rodney, Addison Reed and Zach Duke) and plugging the potential of 30+ home runs (Logan Morrison) to an already potent offense raised expectations through the roof.

    But instead - with the last eleven games being an exception - it has been a disaster. Even with the great end to the first half, the Twins are still on pace to lose the division by 13 games. Though the front office will have two more weeks to make their final decision, they should have the answer already. You can’t give a superior team a head start over a half season and then expect to catch them over the second half.

    All of that is long for simply saying: LET’S MAKE SOME TRADES!

    The two big names to move, Brian Dozier and Eduardo Escobar, are going to get the ink in this part of of the rundown. We’ll look at the rest of the players soon thereafter.

    First, let’s look at Brian Dozier. Dozier ended the first half with a walk-off grand slam and gives hope that maybe he’s warming up for one of his (mostly) annual second-half power runs. He will be owed just shy of $3 million for August and September. There are a handful of teams competing for playoff spots that have big needs at second base: Milwaukee, Boston and Washington come at the top of the list.

    Washington might have to wait until closer to the deadline before determining if they are buyers or sellers. That leaves the Brewers and Red Sox, in my opinion, as the two teams with the biggest need at second base.

    The Brewers are unique. They have a big hole at shortstop and have Jonathan Villar, a serviceable player, at second base. But Villar has had a rough year and is now on the disabled list with a thumb injury that will sideline him until the end of the month.

    I’ve liked what the Brewers have done in terms of adding to their farm system via the draft and trades and I also like their move for Christian Yelich, which took some of those players I liked out of their system.

    But potentially dealing Dozier to the Brewers starts with prized pitching prospect Corbin Burnes. Burnes is a 23 year old right-handed pitcher who is a Top 100 prospect in baseball and projects as a mid-rotation starter. He’s only in his second full season and projects to help the Brewers in the bullpen during the stretch run. I’d expect the Brewers to balk at that asking price. Beyond him, the Brewers lack the high-end pitcher I’d be targeting.

    Brewers fans would suggest Luis Ortiz, but he has always struggled to stay healthy, missing time this season with a hamstring strain and failing to ever eclipse the 100 inning mark in a season. When you take that next step down in the prospect category, you’re looking at a number of outfielders, which is a position I’d try to avoid. (While it’s true you can never have too much depth at any position, I’m more than comfortable with the depth the Twins have in the outfield and would prefer to look elsewhere.)

    In addition to focusing on pitching, I’m also looking for middle infielders and Mauricio Dubon is a good one… who is missing the rest of the year with a torn ACL. It would take more than an injured infielder to give up Dozier.

    I also know the Twins liked burly RHP Cody Ponce coming out of college. Currently pitching at AA, Ponce projects as a back-end starter. Taking either of them plus a lower level prospect isn’t exciting as Burnes, but it’s possible that it could be enough.

    The preferred destination for me - and it’s a perfect fit with Dustin Pedroia likely missing the rest of the season - is Boston. The Red Sox always have ammo. Some of it is very appealing.

    I don’t see the Red Sox shopping Michael Chavis or Jay Groome for a rental. Bryan Mata, though, might be a fair ask. Mata played in the Futures Game, but has struggled with his command, walking 57 in 71 innings. The tall righty has a high-ceiling though, playing high A ball at only 19. A step below Mata is big lefty Darwinzon Hernandez, a 21 a year old who is still pretty raw but also is a high-ceiling prospect.

    In addition to one of those pitchers, I’d also ask about MLBer Blake Swihart. A former top catching prospect, Swihart would benefit from a change of scenery and the switch-hitter does better from the left-side of the plate, which would pair well with Mitch Garver. Despite his lack on innings behind the plate this season, a catching-starved organization (seriously, who’s the next catcher that gets the call if Wilson or Garver get hurt?) could do worse than to see if he can help fill a hole moving forward. Plus, he offers position flexibility and I’m a sucker for that.

    If the Red Sox were willing to part with multiple pieces, I’d be willing to move Dozier as well as Zach Duke if that’s what it takes to get it done.

    Do any of these potential trades appeal to you?

    Dozier to the Brewers for Ortiz or Dubon or Ponce plus?

    Dozier and Duke to the Red Sox for Mata and a lottery ticket or Hernandez and possibly Swihart?

    Eduardo Escobar is another appealing trade piece/pending free agent that the Twins should look to move. Owed $1.6 million in July and August, Escobar has played primarily third base on the season, but can move over to shortstop and second base as needed. In fact, with Machado off the board, Escobar might be the best option for teams looking for a shortstop.

    Philadelphia was in the Machado sweepstakes until the end, losing out when the Dodgers were willing to part with five prospects in a combination of quality and quantity.

    The Phillies remain in the infield market. By position and bWAR, the Phillies rank 28th at third base and 27th at shortstop. Though Maikel Franco has improved as of late, Escobar would be an upgrade for a team desperate to battle with the Braves and hold off the Nationals.

    My ask would be for short-season pitcher Francisco Morales. A tall, hard-throwing, high-ceiling 18-year-old righty who is having a good (albeit very early) season. There are other intriguing prospects in the Philadelphia system as well. Cole Irvin, a big lefty, is 24 and having a very good season in AAA. He projects as a back-half starter, without huge stuff, but throws a variety of pitches and has good control, striking out 93 while only walking 20 in 112 innings so far this season. Franklyn Kilome is another high-ceiling prospect, but his stuff has backed up a little as a 23-year-old in AA, walking over 4.5 batter per nine innings.

    How would you feel about dealing Escobar to Philadelphia?

    Escobar to the Phillies for Morales or Irvin or Kilome plus?

    The difference between Dozier and Escobar and the rest of the Twins potential trade chips is that there is a very good chance that if they don’t find a deal to their liking, they can make the qualifying offer to either or both and get draft pick compensation. Dishing out potentially $19 million to either player seems excessive and is, but one-year deals rarely hamstring a team because of the immediate cost certainty. And in the Twins case, who have very little committed to next year and many players still pre-arbitration, there will be plenty of money to spend, especially on productive offensive bats.

    There are many other players who fall into a different category - whether that’s impending free agency with no chance to get the qualifying offer or guys who will still spend a year or two or more under team control. We’ll take a look at some of those guys soon.

    Weigh in below. If you were GM, what would you do with Dozier and Escobar?

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    This probably won't be popular, and I understand.  I'd rather watch better baseball for a couple of months than backfill the bottom end of the org or get the rights to a player whose equivalent can be had on a minor league deal next ST (Alex Presley).

    It seems like it's harder to get teams to give up good prospects.  (Or maybe we're just more aware of their warts now with all the scouting resources/websites.)  I used to be impressed to hear a prospect was in BA's top 100, now if they're not top 50 I figure they're pretty questionable. 

     

    Plus, there is some value to making players earn their salary.  Especially with younger players, they need to see that the really successful players work HARD at their craft.  If you're just advancing youngsters to the MLB level without them earning the promotion, you're risking them learning the process to reach their ceiling.  

     

    On the other hand, every game you win could be costing you a spot or 2 in next year's draft, so there is that  :) .

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    As long as they sign for less than $50 mil (a virtual certainty for Escobar, and a likely possibility for Dozier), the comp pick is going to be roughly equivalent to the 70-something pick we traded with Hughes. We got $7 mil for it, but many observers thought it was a bit of an overpay by San Diego, and of course it was one of only a couple picks that could actually be traded/sold which boosted its value. The expected player value of that pick may only be $4 mil? And we paid $4 mil for Littell last deadline. I don't think that is a high bar to clear.

    I agree. Earlier I said a return of a guy like Adalberto Mejia at the time of the Nunez trade was above that bar. A similar return for Dozier or Escobar is better than the expected value of a comp pick.

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    I have to admit ... I did not think there were ANY reasonable examples. However, if you manipulate the numbers, you can make a case for Hosmer. However, you chose a 3 year period which included 2 years when he was at his worst and had near zero WAR. You elected to position the numbers in a manner not reflective of recent history. For example, he had 7.8 fWAR the 3 years immediately proceeding his FA year and that included a very bad year of .2 FWAR. You could have also used the last 5 years where he averaged 2.14 WAR.

     

    He was also rated the 3rd best FA on the market my MLB Trade Rumors so manipulating of war aside, comparing Hosmer  and Escobar makes little sense and the fact he received a $144M contract would suggest the league does not see them as anywhere near comparable.

     

    While berating another forum member's opinion, you asked if anyone had received a QO that had a three year WAR less than 2.I used the three years before FA for Escobar that you used in your comment (I assumed you weren't considering 2018 a full year). I tried to do the same with Hosmer. Manipulating to 600 PA is what most people do when comparing someone has been used as a utility player vs an everyday player. In any case, I fulfilled your question on three-year WAR.

    Edited by dbminn
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    While berating another forum member's opinion, you asked if anyone had received a QO that had a three year WAR less than 2.I used the three years before FA for Escobar that you used in your comment (I assumed you weren't considering 2018 a full year). I tried to do the same with Hosmer. Manipulating to 600 PA is what most people do when comparing someone has been used as a utility player vs an everyday player. In any case, I fulfilled your question on three-year WAR.

     

    I have no problem at all with how you represented Escobar's numbers, it was the way you manipulated Hosmer's track record where I have a problem. It would have made far more sense to use the previous 3 years, 4 years or 5 years. Instead, you separated his best year (the most current year and then used a 3 year period where he had two bad years with very good years before and after that period. In other words, instead of portraying the numbers as accurately as possible you elected to manipulate the

    numbers to look as bad as possible. 

     

    The question of if Hosmer is a reasonable example is easily verified by looking at where he was rated among top free agents last year. You could also evaluate the comparison based on the contract Hosmer got and the projected contract for Escobar. Six months from now we can compare the actual contracts. They are not remotely close to comparable free agents.

     

     

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    This probably won't be popular, and I understand.  I'd rather watch better baseball for a couple of months than backfill the bottom end of the org or get the rights to a player whose equivalent can be had on a minor league deal next ST (Alex Presley).

     

    Dozier and Escobar are still playing for contracts, so we should get to see some good baseball.

     

    The irony is that Escobar himself is precisely the kind of player you're opposed to us acquiring.

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    I guess you never know, but Milwaukee might be desperate/willing enough to deal Peralta. If not, I guess we’d all know why they lost out on the Machado sweepstakes (also a rental).

    MN’s got nothing to lose, and everything to gain, when it comes to dealing these rentals. The fact that I can’t say the same about the Brew Crew, a team that went “all in” to start the year (and still might not make the playoffs), means we “should” have leverage in making a deal with them.

    I'm not saying don't try, because it doesn't hurt to ask, but I'm thinking the Brewers laugh their butts off on the other end of the phone. I don't think there's a chance in hell that the Brewers would be that dumb.

     

    Rumors are rumors, but it sounds like Peralta was not included in Brewers-O's talks. So they don't seem that desperate.

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    I have no problem at all with how you represented Escobar's numbers, it was the way you manipulated Hosmer's track record where I have a problem. It would have made far more sense to use the previous 3 years, 4 years or 5 years. Instead, you separated his best year (the most current year and then used a 3 year period where he had two bad years with very good years before and after that period. In other words, instead of portraying the numbers as accurately as possible you elected to manipulate the

    numbers to look as bad as possible. 

     

    The question of if Hosmer is a reasonable example is easily verified by looking at where he was rated among top free agents last year. You could also evaluate the comparison based on the contract Hosmer got and the projected contract for Escobar. Six months from now we can compare the actual contracts. They are not remotely close to comparable free agents.

     

    I wasn't using Hosmer to defend Escobar. Like I said, the Hosmer contract was outrageous. I only meant to cross you up where reality got really funny.

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    Escobar makes sense for a decent 3 year contract or a QO. Dozier does not plan on being here after this year. Get what you can for Dozier, Escobar would need a bigger return for me.

    Actually, a player who doesn't plan to re-sign with you would make more sense for a QO -- it's a free draft pick.

     

    For the player you plan to retain anyway (Escobar), a QO makes it possible/likely you will be stuck paying him $18 mil for just 1 year, when you could perhaps get him for something like 2/20 or even 3/24 instead.

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    I guess I don't understand the narrative that Dozier doesn't want to be with the Twins next year.  I thought he was just disappointed the Twins did not offer him an extension.  The market was very strange last year so I can see why Twins are reluctant to do anything ahead of time. Also he is older so maybe the Twins are worried about regression but I don't think it is Dozier that doesn't to be here more the FO not wanting to strike a deal early.

     

    Let Dozier see what his worth is and how many years he can command on the market. The Twins might be able to sign him to a 2 year deal with a third year option or maybe even a reasonable 3 year deal depending on his value on the market if they want him back.  They certainly will have the money to do that it just depends on where they want to allocate their money.  Pitching or position players.

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    I am going to give another view point on trading talent for future prospects in my years over watching the Twins I never have seen where that has produced a winner and if you look at it most times it meant on the whole team has taken a step backward in near future. Yes there's time to blow up team when whole team is has aged past being able to compete but look at it now only players on the team in that category is Mauer and Santanna. Yet Mauer is still valuable piece in the Twins line up and so was Santana until this year.

    I look at this team they are just starting to learn how to win and now were talking about breaking them up. In Major league baseball young teams very rarely win it all and even have hard time qualifying to make the playoffs. Look at the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, they keep veteran players around that have been winners they teach there young players how to win and fight through adversity and they always looking for next veteran player to fill that roll. Dozier and Escobar are in prime age to be this player and they now have idea what it takes to win with year like last year. Now were going to trade for the future but this means were putting off winning again at least another 2 to 3 years. To when if Buxton and Sano can learn to become big leaguers and have learned to win but here again we will becoming to when they will need to be traded. What I am saying a GMs need to look at players they have if they think they can win that group they need to invest in them long term and you have enough talent in pipeline to add to these players to win a championship. FAlvey talks about being contender long term but I don't believe that can be done win a championship. This is especially true of smaller market teams. KC is example of doing it the right way they kept their talent some say to long but they had championship run and now are paying the price again to rebuild. The Twins have been playing other game since the 90's see what its got them some trips to playoffs but it has been one and done deal mostly until you run out talent and start all over. To ownership having contender is good for the pocket book but you never experience being champion. Carl Pohlad must of understood this because he invested players long term at beginning of his ownership giving big contracts to Puckett, Hrbeck, and longterm contracts to Gagne, Gladden, Tapini, and then signing the veteran players who knew how to win. The small market teams need to pick their time and go for it. The question for the Twins what group of players are they going to choose to do this otherwise we see year after year of trading for the future but never winning the big one and even then if wrong thing happens you may never get to pot of gold and you have to start all over again.

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    I am going to give another view point on trading talent for future prospects in my years over watching the Twins I never have seen where that has produced a winner and if you look at it most times it meant on the whole team has taken a step backward in near future. Yes there's time to blow up team when whole team is has aged past being able to compete but look at it now only players on the team in that category is Mauer and Santanna. Yet Mauer is still valuable piece in the Twins line up and so was Santana until this year.

    I look at this team they are just starting to learn how to win and now were talking about breaking them up. In Major league baseball young teams very rarely win it all and even have hard time qualifying to make the playoffs. Look at the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, they keep veteran players around that have been winners they teach there young players how to win and fight through adversity and they always looking for next veteran player to fill that roll. Dozier and Escobar are in prime age to be this player and they now have idea what it takes to win with year like last year. Now were going to trade for the future but this means were putting off winning again at least another 2 to 3 years. To when if Buxton and Sano can learn to become big leaguers and have learned to win but here again we will becoming to when they will need to be traded. What I am saying a GMs need to look at players they have if they think they can win that group they need to invest in them long term and you have enough talent in pipeline to add to these players to win a championship. FAlvey talks about being contender long term but I don't believe that can be done win a championship. This is especially true of smaller market teams. KC is example of doing it the right way they kept their talent some say to long but they had championship run and now are paying the price again to rebuild. The Twins have been playing other game since the 90's see what its got them some trips to playoffs but it has been one and done deal mostly until you run out talent and start all over. To ownership having contender is good for the pocket book but you never experience being champion. Carl Pohlad must of understood this because he invested players long term at beginning of his ownership giving big contracts to Puckett, Hrbeck, and longterm contracts to Gagne, Gladden, Tapini, and then signing the veteran players who knew how to win. The small market teams need to pick their time and go for it. The question for the Twins what group of players are they going to choose to do this otherwise we see year after year of trading for the future but never winning the big one and even then if wrong thing happens you may never get to pot of gold and you have to start all over again.

     

    While I sympathize with your point I don't know that I completely understand where you are coming from.  Trades are a big part of making teams better.  One team is taking the short term upside the other the long term.  Kansas City took a huge risk when trading with Tampa and it is that trade for pitching that really put them over the top. The Cubs made short and long term trades that took them to the World Series.  Houston made lots of trades some for the future and some to get their World Series win most notably getting Verlander.   So trades for the future most definitely do work.  Not always, but there is risk in trading just as there is risk in not trading or having your young players not turn into star players.

     

    Most of the people on this board are only talking about trading players that will be free agents at the end of this year.  A couple Odorizzi and Gibson have another year of control but either player being traded wouldn't mean the Twins would not be able to compete next year.  I have seen a few posts recommending trading Buxton or Sano but you can't take those seriously.  

     

    Also there seems to be a flaw in your thinking with Dozier and Escobar.  Even if the Twins don't trade them they still might not be able to keep them because another team might offer more money or more years or both.  Getting nothing for those players in a season where we have very little chance at the post season would be very poor team management if you ask me. 

     

    There is no reason to blow this team up.  As you said they are young and if a few players step up next year then this team will be just fine.  Trading guys who will free agents at the end of the year is not blowing the team up just changing the window of contention. The Twins are getting closer to being a top tier team but they need their young players to be difference makers and we just didn't get that this year.  Even the vets had a hard time this year.  

     

    We have five or six guys that are free agents at the end of year.  The Twins should do their best to shop them and find value.  After the season is over they might even be able to trade some of those prospects for a MLB player.  If this year is not our window we need to play for next year and beyond.  You do that by trading.

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    I guess I don't understand the narrative that Dozier doesn't want to be with the Twins next year.  I thought he was just disappointed the Twins did not offer him an extension.  The market was very strange last year so I can see why Twins are reluctant to do anything ahead of time. Also he is older so maybe the Twins are worried about regression but I don't think it is Dozier that doesn't to be here more the FO not wanting to strike a deal early.

     

    Let Dozier see what his worth is and how many years he can command on the market. The Twins might be able to sign him to a 2 year deal with a third year option or maybe even a reasonable 3 year deal depending on his value on the market if they want him back.  They certainly will have the money to do that it just depends on where they want to allocate their money.  Pitching or position players.

     

    I think there are two narratives being spun, and both are wrong, or partially right depending on how you view this. It's not an issue of wanting to stay or wanting to leave or wanting to stay. Dozier made it clear that he wanted to test free agency. I do think it means that he wanted to gage his market and take a fully informed offer (and yes, I think dollar value is probably a big factor, perhaps even the primary factor). I think he wants to know his true value and take an informed decision. He's got one shot at this. At this point, I doubt he's too willing to negotiate. He bet on himself when he signed that extension, and I don't think he's going to fold now. 

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    I am going to give another view point on trading talent for future prospects in my years over watching the Twins I never have seen where that has produced a winner and if you look at it most times it meant on the whole team has taken a step backward in near future. Yes there's time to blow up team when whole team is has aged past being able to compete but look at it now only players on the team in that category is Mauer and Santanna. Yet Mauer is still valuable piece in the Twins line up and so was Santana until this year.

    I look at this team they are just starting to learn how to win and now were talking about breaking them up. In Major league baseball young teams very rarely win it all and even have hard time qualifying to make the playoffs. Look at the Yankees, Red Sox, Dodgers, they keep veteran players around that have been winners they teach there young players how to win and fight through adversity and they always looking for next veteran player to fill that roll. Dozier and Escobar are in prime age to be this player and they now have idea what it takes to win with year like last year. Now were going to trade for the future but this means were putting off winning again at least another 2 to 3 years. To when if Buxton and Sano can learn to become big leaguers and have learned to win but here again we will becoming to when they will need to be traded. What I am saying a GMs need to look at players they have if they think they can win that group they need to invest in them long term and you have enough talent in pipeline to add to these players to win a championship. FAlvey talks about being contender long term but I don't believe that can be done win a championship. This is especially true of smaller market teams. KC is example of doing it the right way they kept their talent some say to long but they had championship run and now are paying the price again to rebuild. The Twins have been playing other game since the 90's see what its got them some trips to playoffs but it has been one and done deal mostly until you run out talent and start all over. To ownership having contender is good for the pocket book but you never experience being champion. Carl Pohlad must of understood this because he invested players long term at beginning of his ownership giving big contracts to Puckett, Hrbeck, and longterm contracts to Gagne, Gladden, Tapini, and then signing the veteran players who knew how to win. The small market teams need to pick their time and go for it. The question for the Twins what group of players are they going to choose to do this otherwise we see year after year of trading for the future but never winning the big one and even then if wrong thing happens you may never get to pot of gold and you have to start all over again.

     

    I think there's merit in what you're saying; but to cherry pick a bit, the Yankees, just two years ago, blew up their roster. They produced a playoff team the following year by beating us in the WC.  They currently have the 3rd best run differential in all of baseball playing in what is its toughest division, sitting in second. No one will challenge them for the WC, and they have a real chance at making up those 4.5 games. 

     

    They made a smart decision, stocking their farm with talent. Some have produced at the major league level, and some can be used to acquire talent for the run over the next two years (which is why Gibson is in play with them). 

     

    I think there's merit in making an intelligent decision, and I think at this point, the right answer is sell. I wouldn't punt on 2019, because the talent is there. I'm definitely selling this year. 

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    I guess I don't understand the narrative that Dozier doesn't want to be with the Twins next year.  I thought he was just disappointed the Twins did not offer him an extension.  The market was very strange last year so I can see why Twins are reluctant to do anything ahead of time. Also he is older so maybe the Twins are worried about regression but I don't think it is Dozier that doesn't to be here more the FO not wanting to strike a deal early.

     

    Let Dozier see what his worth is and how many years he can command on the market. The Twins might be able to sign him to a 2 year deal with a third year option or maybe even a reasonable 3 year deal depending on his value on the market if they want him back.  They certainly will have the money to do that it just depends on where they want to allocate their money.  Pitching or position players.

     

    In late February, Brian Dozier publicly expressed that he was going to be a free agent. 

     

    Since then we've had a couple TD posters take this public expression as some sort of declaration that he doesn't want to be here.

     

    These comments by a couple of TD posters ignore previous public statements by Dozier in January that he would be willing to sign an extension and saying that he wants to remain a Twin. It also ignores that the Twins didn't offer him an extension leaving Dozier no option but to become a free agent. 

     

    These are big boys making big boy money decisions and it is much better for everyone if they don't make public comments that can be misunderstood and can and will be used against them in the court of social media.  :)  

     

     

     

     

     

     

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    Falvinegaard has a nice ring to it ...

     

    My question to you, Jeremy, is now that we've seen a few trades go down and have some feel for how guys are being valued, would you change your expectations at all on what the Twins may be able to fetch for Dozier/Escobar? Or have things panned out close to what you would have expected?

     

    Machado was going to require a king's ransom. Beyond that we've only seen moves in the RP market. 

     

    Hard to comp for Dozier or Escobar so far. I thought the return on Familia was light, but not sending money and getting IFA money back adds variables that make that trade unique.

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