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Maybe its time to leave Martin alone and let him hit the way he's comfortable hitting. IMO if he can play defense, a lower avg. is OK as long as his OB avg stays reasonable.

Depressing. Martin- As long as he keeps the OBP up I don't care about the power. How many times have the Twins had runners on first and third with no outs and then walk away with nothing because guys struck out while swinging for the fences. The bigger issue with Martin is where does he fit on defense. Canterino- I don't have his medical records and I'm not a doctor. But yeah, one has to wonder if this situation could have been handled differently. Balazovic-In 2000 at AA Kyle Lohse went 3-18 with a 6.04 ERA. He went on to have pretty respectable career. Sometimes you have to struggle to find and toughen yourself.

Of note, the fourth affiliate, the one that didn't make the playoffs, is the Saints... and there are no Triple-A playoffs. Also, there is such a turnover on that roster that it would be impossible to find any consistency to compete. Even just this past weekend, Rodriguez was supposed to start on Saturday, he got called up Saturday morning. Henriquez was supposed to start Sunday. He got called up Sunday morning. "Excuses?" Sure... also just the reality of a feeder affiliate. Varland and Festa... Headrick. Nowlin... Traded Povich and Hajjar (with Steer and CES) to get Lopez and Mahle. They're developing pitching prospects. Those prospects now just need to make that final step. Guys like Ryan, Ober, Winder, Varland are a pretty solid starting point.

I was really worried about that when the Twins hired Wes Johnson. As much time as they spend working on mechanics and studying the video of arm angles and release points (and all that has helped keep Bailey Ober's arm healthy, and probably others)... I also worry about the focus on velocity. It's a tough thing because its' clearly really important in the game, but it isn't natural for an arm. There have been arm injuries, but (without looking) I don't think there have been more than before. But yes, I do think that the whole medical staff and training philosophy needs to be analyzed... and I have no doubt in my mind that has been an ongoing study as well. How many of the injuries were freaky, can't do much about it kind of things (broken bones, hit by pitches, etc) and how many are soft tissue, muscle types of things.

Gotta agree with everything here EXCEPT that Byron Buxton wasnt worth the contract. Even injured, he has performed at a value that far exceeds what he is being paid for 2022.

In another article, Nick says "Hope Sinks"....let's be honest. Hope left the station a while ago. But, today is a nice reminder that Joe Ryan will slot in very nicely as the #4 starter next year. Maybe as he gains more experience he'll learn how to get really good lineups out. At the very least, Mahle-Gray-Maeda-Ryan has the potential to be a very nice top 4 in the rotation in 2023.

Who are these detractors you speak of? The ones who say Ryan has a #3 caliber rotation arm ceiling? That's me. Ryan is currently a back end starter. That does not preclude him from having great games and I think it's great that he's pitched so awesome. Kevin Slowey had a 4 game run in 2008 that looked like this: 4 G, 29.0 IP, 0.93 ERA, 24 K, 2 BB Kyle Gibson had a 3 game run in 2014 that looked like this: 3 G, 21.0 IP, 0.00 ERA, 16 K, 5 BB Randy Dobnak started had a 3 game run in 2019 that looked like this: 3 G, 16.1 IP, 1.10 ERA, 13 K, 3 BB Dylan Bundy, who has constantly been crapped on by the staff and fans of this site opened the season with: 3 G, 15.1 IP, 0.59 ERA, 12 K, 1 BB I like Joe Ryan. I think he'll stick in the Twins rotation and he's inexpensive. I also remember he got hammered in his two previous starts before these last 2 really great games he's spun.

For me, Lopez continuing to struggle was the big news out of this game. He looks like the “old” Lopez ever since the Twins acquired him. Never bet on a reliever who has a half year of success. I hope I am wrong and he comes back strong next year.

Falvene were hired to create a farm system that could produce position players and front line pitching. They have been in charge for at least 5 years. Overall, their player scouting and development operation has produced almost no front of the rotation starters or everyday position players. They have to often missed on the prospects and players they traded for. The rate of injuries throughout the farm system over an extended period of time is a growing concern. As we end this season we don’t have established everyday players at catcher, first base (unless that is Miranda’s position next year), shortstop (assuming Correa opts out), third base, and all three outfield positions. With the exception of Ryan we have no real front of the rotation pitchers and the bullpen needs a lot of work. Covid certainly played a role in where we find ourselves. That said, Falvene also bears some responsibility for where the team finds itself. I’d welcome a reasoned discussion of how responsible they are for where things stand.

It might also be possible that his poor play at SS is affecting his batting. With Lewis and Lee both ahead of him at SS, it's time to move him to another position and see if his hitting improves.

Right. Sanchez throws out more base runners than MLB average and dramatically better than Jeffers. Sanchez allows fewer passed balls and wild pitches than MLB average, similar to Jeffers. Sanchez is ranked above average at pitch framing this year a bit behind Jeffers = Sanchez sucks defensively. The stats actually do not support the opinion Sanchez being a poor defensive catcher. The argument Jeffers is a significantly better defensive catcher than Sanchez seems to have no merit from a stats standpoint. Sanchez's bat does seem to have gone ice cold again over the past couple weeks, which is a bummer, but I sometimes wonder if Sanchez uses custom printed Twins Daily staffer images on his toilet paper... Nice to see Ryan pitching deep again. Good things happen when Baldelli lets the starters who are on their game continue to pitch and go into the later innings. I can't help but feel the division title would be in play had Baldelli extended this opportunity to other rotation arms.

Good morning Twins fans and welcome back to the ever popular workday game thread! For those of you still working from home go ahead and turn on the TV and watch the game while pretending to listen and participate on conference calls. If you're working in an office close your office door and get the radio going. If you work in a cubical city put your EarPods in and listen or watch the game from your computer of smart phone. If those options don't sound appealing go ahead and take the day off. You have my permission. Well, the Twins have certainly spiraled out of control. I'm still in the denial stage of my grieving process...I think anger comes next...I'll wait for the anger stage to kick in before posting anything new in the forums. I will keep this short since we are playing for pride now and not the playoffs.... Today's Lineups: TWINS: 1. Luis Arraez, DH 2. C. Correa, SS 3. J. Miranda, 1B 4. Nick Gordon, 2B 5. G. Urshela, 3B 6. G. Celestino, CF 7. Jake Cave, LF 8. M. Wallner, RF 9. S. Leon, C SP - Sonny Gray, RHP (8-4, 2.83 ERA) CLEVELAND: 1. S. Kwan, LF 2. A. Rosario, SS 3. J. Ramirez, DH 4. J. Naylor, 1B 5. O. Gonzalez, RF 6. A. Gimenez, 2B 7. T. Freeman, 3B 8. L. Maile, C 9. M. Straw, CF SP - Cal Quantrill, RHP (12-5, 3.51 ERA)

Lopez has been infected by the Pagan virus. What was lost in this debacle is that Palacios's K/9 fell from 27 to 13.5. How tragic.

Time to bring up some more of the kids and see what they can do. It does no good to see the marginal vets now that we are pretty much out of this.

Disagree. He's hitting .241 at Double-A. That isn't playable in the big leagues, his average will be below .200. He has already shown he doesn't play elite SS defense and that is what it takes to carry a bat that weak. He doesn't need 25 HR power but he does need to hit the ball hard enough to ISO above .100. He had an ISO of .200 at Vanderbilt.

The 2023 Twins will face the same issues the 2022 Twins did - bad pitching. Sonny Gray is a real ML pitcher and easily our best one. Joe Ryan is a solid back of the rotation starter but wouldn't be a starter on a playoff caliber rotation. Mahle has shoulder issues so we can hope he's healthy but should probably plan on only getting 100 innings from him. Maeda is 35 and coming back from injury. His last season with us, he produced a 91 ERA+ and .3 WAR. We should probably expect more of that production then any SSS. So the Twins need pitching. Tons of it. The pipeline is a failure. The pitching philosophy is boring and a failure. So, lots of work to do in the offseason.

Great writing, Nick. Unfortunately, the topic is too bloody sad to appreciate.

Hmm, maybe it was a good idea to not have Joe Ryan throw 140 pitches in his last outing... hmm...

I know the OP focused on just three but IMO it was even worse than that. I would go on to argue Strotman and Henriquez and to some degree Sands were all equally disappointing at the minor league level as well. The top of the 2020 draft with Sabato and Soularie continued to disappoint as well. I am giving Cavaco one more year but he too looks out of his depth at the plate. So yeah plenty of of disappointing players on the farm this year and could argue the OP has the top three as those players all ranked higher in the system but the the disappointment goes beyond those 3. I know I keep harping on it but the Twins need that pitching pipeline up and working without it they cannot compete. They seem to be good at getting the most from guys drafted late but they all seem to be 5th starter types. They need to find some front of the rotation types as well to make this work. There were plenty of positives in the system as well. Far more positive player outcomes than negative in the system Varland and Festa to name just a few. With three of the 4 affiliates making the playoffs the system has good players the question is do they have elite players or MLB difference makers there? I hope so.

I agree. IMHO, Canterino is another example of the Twins failing to deal with medical issues appropriately. If they plan to turn over every "stone" before looking at surgery, a lot of prospects are going suffer. By delaying surgery, they cost him this year and next year. Too bad, the kid has the talent to pitch in the bigs.

If only we could’ve won Friday/last game of twin bill Saturday. Ugh!!!! Still a big win-if we win today/sox sweep Cleveland/us KC sox series at end of season could decide division-it’s a long shot highly unlikely but you never know. I’ll always watch the twins no matter what as this season has been roller coaster as this will only be learning experience as I think future is bright and 2023 will be big year for us

Actually you can angle the clipboard to direct the ball to your throwing hand for super quick transitions. More double plays my friend.

Great rookie seasons for Ryan and Duran. Truly impressive. And Waller with a couple of hits. A good 2 days for him overall.

This is one of the worst games Kirk Cousins has had in a Vikings uniform. The defense has been bad but they haven’t given up a point in the 2nd half. Kirk has thrown 3 terrible INTs and it could be more than that.

My guess is that the FO was planning to contend this year if things broke their way, but were really looking to next year when they thought Winder/Canterino/Balazovic would be ready, Maeda would be back, and the young guys like Kirilloff, Lewis, Larnach and Miranda would have experience and settle into established roles. They figured to piece a bullpen together for the year, and hope Jax, Duran, Alcala, Stashak, etc. would get some experience and come back strong in 23. Then, when Correa fell in their lap, everyone's expectations, and theirs, changed. It is like they were caught between shifts in hockey, half in on this year and half out. When they performed well early, and the division looked weak, they tried to add at the deadline only to screw that up with an injured pitcher (Mahle) and a pitcher who returned to old ways (Lopez) providing no help. Then, of course, all the injuries. They still are not in bad shape for next year with a rotation of Gray, Mahle (hope shoulder is not sign of significant problems), Ryan, and Ober forming the start of a decent rotation, and IF Kirilloff, Lewis, Larnach and others come back healthy to add to Buxton for 100 games (and he is worth his salary), Miranda, Arraez, Polanco, maybe Wallner, etc to form a decent core. IF they add a top of the rotation type starter, catching help, and bullpen help they could make a run for it even if Cleveland and Chicago are better. I think Correa is out, and if so, they should have the money to make improvements.

Can we talk about how bad Jorge Lopez has been? Since coming over he has literally been the same guy Baltimore gave up on as a starter, except now he's imploding from the pen. From an opposing fan perspective the hissy fits on the mound have to be hilarious, from a Twins fan perspective they're also hilarious, but in a sad kind of way. Are we still happy/comfortable with him being locked into a pen spot next year? Yeesh....

Thank you Twins for giving us some good baseball. IMO we had the players & could have won it but nevertheless thank you. Gordon has proved himself again by pruducing runs when we needed them. Now we can bring up some young players, let them play and see what they can do. Go Twins

Cant win many games when you have a sub par closer, your starting 3 OF's and 3 backups are injured. Call up your explosive #1 prospect and he gets injured. Lose your #1 catcher, along with every pitcher hit the IL at least once. Your team will never mesh with this many injuries and players moving back and forth. We need a better conditioning/injury prevention group. We also had some bad luck on how some of these injuries took place. Just a rough year of injuries to recover from is all.

I have now given up on this season. I was a holdout and I give up.

"Pagan-esque". Love the term! So definitive!

Lopez, Leon, paddack, pagan….sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make. Utter disasters, all of them

2023

We got a stolen base!

Great article. The Twins FO approach to this offseason reminded me of those kids in high school who slack off for 90% of the term and then start doing extra credit like crazy in the final week. In their haste, they made a number of faulty assumptions: 1) Buxton will remain relatively healthy. 2) The farm system pitching pipeline was ready to flow. 3) Correa's glove and bat would patch any defensive/offensive holes in the infield and lineup. 4) Bullpens are easy to cobble together on the fly. None of those assumptions were true. They let Pagan completely sink the season, acting on the idea that any additional moves they would make at the deadline would carry the team through to a division title in the weak AL Central - or at least a WC spot in an expanded playoff field. Nope. Buxton's detractors were sadly right - he isn't durable enough to warrant the new contract. The pitching pipeline completely dried up, reminding us all what national baseball writers had said in the offseason: Twins pitching scouting and development is nothing special. Correa is a player who feeds on intensity, and he found nothing after May here to build upon in terms of energy. And the bullpen implosions continued, straight out of 2021. Somehow, this organization turned once-strong relievers and closers like Colome, Pagan and Lopez into new versions of Ron Davis. I gotta say, 2021 was far easier to stomach than 2022. This division was wide open for the taking this year. Instead, the Twins experienced another total system failure, bouncing them from first to third when everything mattered most. The FO seems to think they did their best with a reload this year. If so, I'd hate to see their worst attempt.

More like "Lack of Developments"... amirite? ?

There was someone in the medical profession that posted on TD in another thread - the last thing they want to do is put someone under the knife. So that's why they tried everything else first.

I was referring more to the people claiming the Twins had "given up" after they lost the last couple games. That must be why Joe Ryan gave up hits in this game, he's quit on his team. If he was really trying he would have thrown 7 more hitless innings. According to most posters here you can tell pretty easily when the Twins have given up. When they lose it was because they weren't trying (mostly due to Rocco's uninspiring leadership). When they win it was because they had passion for the game that day (despite Rocco's uninspiring leadership, of course). The Twins aren't going to win the division this season but it isn't for lack of trying.

Ryan goes 7 twice in a row? I'm sure Rocco had to make sure his arm was still attached! Again it shows that guys can get through the 3rd time facing a lineup. I'm a firm believer that they should be given a chance to try, if they still look strong and the pitch count is still under control!

Falvey, Levine, Rocco are a package deal. One stays, they all stay or one goes, they all go. They are human, have talents, and are capable of reflection and change .... I think.

Nick Gordon is better than Acuna this year, just sayin'

4.24 ERA for Lopez since acquiring him...

I stole the answer, from PoPriveter, couldnt resist,- gotta give credit where its due

This. They need to put Martin at second or left or center and let him get comfortable, imo.

Just set their new record for the most pitchers used in a single season? I'm beaming with pride. Now I can remember the 2022 Twins fondly as the "record-setting 2022 Twins"

With minor league starters dropping like flies I have to wonder about their approach to developing pitchers. In fact given the mountain of injuries on the big league club, resulting in a majority minor league lineup in a series they had to win, it makes you wonder about the entire medical staff’s handling of injuries.

I think the more interesting question is how will the Twins hitters line up against that pitching staff, and will the Twins pitchers be able to hold the Cleveland and Chicago hitters.

Agree. Ryan has had a very fine rookie year. Take out just a handful of big innings, and it was exceptional. Well done Joe!

Ryan has earned the right to pitch late into games, hopefully Rocco or whoever is manager next season let's home do it consistently.

Take my advice: Just don't do it. Don't imagine this team better than they are. Make this organization earn your hope.

I bet there is at least an unwritten rule saying a team can't send two players at a premium position. There are four other teams sending players to Glendale and only so many innings for the catchers to share.