Worley to the Pirates

[LaBombo]

Well stated. And yet another trade made at rock bottom value. There must be a corollary to James' "left for dead" theory for teams that don't manage this aspect of pitching depth very well. The Twins are having a pretty amazing knack for producing more than their 1/10 share, only to find many being re-animated at various levels of success around the league.

James didn't refine it to guesstimate the percentages of those guys whose zombie value ceiling is in middle relief vs. starting or high leverage relief. Would guess they tend more toward the former. But if that's so, would just make it more puzzling why they didn't give VW a shot in that role.

 

Fwiw, although Worley has apparently insisted he's healthy, Gleeman pointed out that it's pretty odd for a pitcher his age to lose effectiveness so dramatically without an injury eventually turning up.

[bird]

How often has any organization ever thrown in the towel on a 26 year old starter just one season removed from two good MLB seasons?

 

He was very bad last year, but this certainly looks as though the Twins saw something negative in addition to the discouraging numbers.

 

This is my suspicion as well. Maybe it won't be so windy in Pittsburgh. Maybe his fate won't be "out of his hands" there.

[Thrylos]

And it's strange that the Pirates didn't simply claim him when he was placed on waivers just six days ago.

 

Not at all. Had they claimed him, he would have had to be on their 40-man roster. Now he doesn't

[Thrylos]

Kinda hard to make my mind about who I would rather have at Rochester's rotation:

 

Virgil Vasquez or Vance Worley?

 

What do you all think?

[bird]

This team makes it hard not to mock them over their financial moves......but I'm sure the scouts that said they should trade a 24 year old cost controlled 2+ WAR CF for him and a minor league pitcher there is not consensus on (in terms of upside) will get the next one right.....

 

The May for Revere trade may end up being a bad one, as trades often are, but this was not a "financial move". Do you not believe it was a personnel decision?

[Guest USAFChief]

...this was not a "financial move". Do you not believe it was a personnel decision?

That's just it...what WAS this? It's hard to conjure up any reasonable financial or personnel rationale.

 

Did they just not like the guy?

[LaBombo]

Did they just not like the guy?

http://legendscasino.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/08.jpeg

 

Your check is already in the mail.

[Thrylos]

That's just it...what WAS this? It's hard to conjure up any reasonable financial or personnel rationale.

 

Did they just not like the guy?

 

This makes about as much sense as the Liriano trade.

[Kwak]

I am amazed that there is any hand-wringing over the departure of Worley. How poorly does a man have to perform before "you cut bait"? How many time have we heard the refrain "best minor league system"? Then add the names of Raley, Gilmartin, et al before you conclude that there are several guys deemed "more worthy" where opportunity needs to be provided. Note: I didn't deem them more worthy--the Twins did. Vines have to be trimmed and weeds pulled.

 

No, I don't think that "some 'splainin' is required". My analogy is an Arcia whiff. If Arcia hits enough homeruns, the whiffs can be tolerated.

[notoriousgod71]

This overtakes Erickson for Klingenbeck as JR's new favorite trade ever.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

I'm guessing they did it as a favor to Worley, clearly things weren't working here, nothing wrong with giving the guy a fresh start back in the national league.

 

I agree. I think when talking about Guerrier earlier Antony said that he's not in the business of holding guys hostage. Worley likely wanted out, and the Twins got what they could.

[The Greatest Poster Alive]

That's just it...what WAS this? It's hard to conjure up any reasonable financial or personnel rationale.

 

Did they just not like the guy?

 

If a player of little to no importance to your team doesn't want to be here, do you force him to stay?

 

I'm not certain that's what happened, but that would justify it for me. Worley asked to leave, twins granted his request.

[Thrylos]

add the names of Haney, Gilmartin, et al

 

Haney who? Chris Haney retired in 2002

[DuluthFan]

The Twins traded Worley to make room on the Rochester roster for their prospects.

[brvama]

I am somewhat baffled by the general tone about this move. Not everyone here has echoed that sentiment, but there has been much discussion on how the Twins should be working our young "guns" into position for the Twins pitching staff. Now there seems to be a bit of "how could they give up on the 'potential' of Worley?

 

He has had his chance and basically failed. By stashing him in Rochester it takes up a spot that one of our other prospects may deserve. Add to that the current Twins staff situation, I think it is prudent to cut bait on those that have not shown us much. We have others to go yet, but at least this is a start.

 

I always hoped Worley would get straighten out. He didn't, at least here. Hopefully, this is a change in roster construction so that the best players are added to help this club. That should mean if some one is better you will be replaced.

[LaBombo]

He has had his chance and basically failed. By stashing him in Rochester it takes up a spot that one of our other prospects may deserve.

Other pitchers with less potential, let alone far less actual success in the majors, have been given more chances by the Twins to prove themselves than Worley was. Good heavens, Kyle Gibson is the same age as Worley, has never succeeded in the majors, was terrible with the Twins last year... and he's been awarded the Twins' only open rotation spot.

 

Also, doesn't it seem like there's almost no chance that Rochester doesn't rely on at least one pitcher this season who is the very definition of a non-prospect?

[cmathewson]

I'm pretty shocked by this move. I thought they'd try to salvage something out of Worley, not just give up on him entirely.

 

And it's strange that the Pirates didn't simply claim him when he was placed on waivers just six days ago.

 

*scratches head*

 

He's the sixth starter at Rochester, behind Meyer, May, Johnson, Gilmartin and Darnell. Also, if they had claimed him, they would have needed a roster spot. He gained value when he cleared waivers. And who knows, maybe it was a Terry Mulholland kind of amount.

[ashbury]

He gained value when he cleared waivers.

 

Not much, apparently. But yes, epsilon instead of zero. My calculus teacher claimed to be able to tell the difference somehow.

[LaBombo]

He's the sixth starter at Rochester, behind Meyer, May, Johnson, Gilmartin and Darnell.

Then he's in the bullpen, where he either flourishes or waits for one of those guys to get hurt or promoted, which is almost certainly going to happen.

[Kwak]

Haney who? Chris Haney retired in 2002

 

I think I meant Raley.

[bird]

This makes about as much sense as the Liriano trade.

 

Are you guys maybe making this more complicated than it really is? The guy sulked publicly about the trade to begin with. Then he showed up last spring in less than optimal condition. He earned a demotion, big time, despite the patience of his employer. He continued to perform poorly in AAA, almost comically poor, and got sent home early. He came back, looking trim and ready, but then it got windy, and he let us all know it "is out of my hands".

 

So yeah, they "didn't like the guy". More accurately, they like others better. They like Meyer, May, Darnell, Johnson, and Gilmartin better as starters in Rochester. They like Tonkin, Olivares, Pressly, Guerra, Hoffman, Thompson, and Ibarra better as relievers down there, apparently.

 

So, yeah, it was a personnel decision, and not a complicated one at that in my view. He became a commodity with no significant value over the masses in AAA.

[brvama]

Other pitchers with less potential, let alone far less actual success in the majors, have been given more chances by the Twins to prove themselves than Worley was. Good heavens, Kyle Gibson is the same age as Worley, has never succeeded in the majors, was terrible with the Twins last year... and he's been awarded the Twins' only open rotation spot.

 

Also, doesn't it seem like there's almost no chance that Rochester doesn't rely on at least one pitcher this season who is the very definition of a non-prospect?

 

Gibson was coming off of Tommy John surgery. So to say his ML experience should be compared to Worley's is misplaced. He basically missed 2 years to prove himself. To be fair both Worley and Gibson were terrible last year. That was last year and at least this spring Gibson earned his spot and didn't stick up the joint.

 

I am certainly disappointed Worley didn't come around, but how long can we go on what happened in the past if there is not an inkling of a return to that in the present? I feel the same about Diamond, Parmelee (of whom I'm a big fan) or anyone else.

[cmathewson]

Other pitchers with less potential, let alone far less actual success in the majors, have been given more chances by the Twins to prove themselves than Worley was. Good heavens, Kyle Gibson is the same age as Worley, has never succeeded in the majors, was terrible with the Twins last year... and he's been awarded the Twins' only open rotation spot.

 

Also, doesn't it seem like there's almost no chance that Rochester doesn't rely on at least one pitcher this season who is the very definition of a non-prospect?

 

There's really no comparison between the two pitchers. Gibson has the best stuff in the rotation. Worley has very little stuff at all. Worley hasn't been successful at any level since 2011. We haven't seen a guy dominate AAA like Gibson did last year for as long as I can remember.

 

And it's a bit unfair to blame him for TJ surgery. Worley learned a trick pitch and had a blip in his career until he lost the feel for it. Gibson is a former top prospect who would be in his third major league season but for TJ.

[bird]

Kinda hard to make my mind about who I would rather have at Rochester's rotation:

 

Virgil Vasquez or Vance Worley

 

What do you all think?

 

Easy choice. Neither. But I'll take any of 7-8 others over Worley. Meyer, May, Darnell, Johnson, Diamond, Gilmartin, Dean, Wimmers to name eight.

[bird]

Other pitchers with less potential, let alone far less actual success in the majors, have been given more chances by the Twins to prove themselves than Worley was. Good heavens, Kyle Gibson is the same age as Worley, has never succeeded in the majors, was terrible with the Twins last year... and he's been awarded the Twins' only open rotation spot.

 

Also, doesn't it seem like there's almost no chance that Rochester doesn't rely on at least one pitcher this season who is the very definition of a non-prospect?

 

That's an instructive comparison. Last year, Gibson was sent down, much to the chagrin of a lot of TD'ers. Worley had too many chances in 2013, not too few, and it can be argued that Gibson got too few. But in the end, it boils down to be being ready when you're called on.

 

Meyer, May, Darnell, and Gilmartin are all ranked among the Twins 30 best prospects by various pundits. The fifth starter, Kris Johnson, may or may not have a higher ceiling, but I'd take my chances on him over Worley right now, especially if conjecture about Worley wanting out is in fact true.

[zchrz]

Good luck Vance, see ya.

 

He is a reclamation project for someone else now, and there is space and energy to devote to more promising prospects.

[LaBombo]

Gibson is the more valuable pitcher, didn't mean to suggest otherwise. And yes, he was infinitely better than Worley at AAA.

 

But Worley was also coming back from surgery, albeit less serious though also much sooner. Agree Gibson isn't a very strong comp with Worley, but that difference is relatively microscopic compared to the difference in their valuation by the Twins, ie. rotation spot vs. zero.

 

So forget Gibson if you prefer, and instead think of the greater slack granted at some point in their careers to most of the seven(!) other non-KC/MP starters used by the Twins besides Worley and Gibson.

 

In the absence of a red flag intangible/off-field issues, it looks like a pretty quick hook for an organization that, even with the Nolasco/Hughes signings and the likely rapid ascent of Meyer, continues to suffer from a dearth, not glut, of good starting pitchers and prospects.

[Dman]

Presley? All right. I'll bite. Who's going to play center in the apparently unthinkable scenario where the guy who hit .192 in the majors and .222 in the minors last year doesn't hit well again this year and Mastro gets hurt.

 

Sounds crazy that both things could happen in same year, but if it did, you'd hate to see the Twins have to do something equally crazy, like trade a veteran for a CF during a losing season just to maintain a little credibility on the field.

 

I am just guessing and somewhat full of it. I don't understand why they let him go for nothing when they could have tried to build his value back in AAA. I am just trying to find a reason why they would do what they did.

[LaBombo]

The fifth starter, Kris Johnson, may or may not have a higher ceiling, but I'd take my chances on him over Worley right now, especially if conjecture about Worley wanting out is in fact true.

That's understandable, but it doesn't change the fact that discarding Worley primarily because there were no relief or start innings to be had without blocking a more valuable prospect in one of the most pitching-starved organizations in baseball doesn't make any sense.

[LaBombo]

I am just guessing and somewhat full of it. I don't understand why they let him go for nothing when they could have tried to build his value back in AAA. I am just trying to find a reason why they would do what they did.

Maybe I misunderstood, that's my feeling as well.