And then there were two.

[JB_Iowa]

Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all?

 

I'm actually thinking that may be a "Yes" (which is actually a No, hitting may not make him the regular catcher):

 

 

• Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 2h
  #mntwins are "very pleased" with Kurt Suzuki, Antony said. "he's going to be our starting catcher, i would think."
   
   
   
  That may change later, of course.
   
   
  

[tobi0040]

No it is dumb to bring up in every freaking thread. This thread is about if the Twins should sign Drew and/or Morales, and it is pretty clear that the Twins have the budget to do so. They have enough to sign both, it literally has nothing to do with this 52% stuff.

 

I would love to hear which top prospects are getting held back in favor of place-holders?

Is Arica not getting a shot? Is Hicks not giving a shot to regain the starting position? Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all? Is Gibson not being given ops?

 

I believe holding the ownership accountable. Here is a story from 2007 about 50% of revenue from Mr. Pohlad. Seems like they have been at where they stated they would be and what they cite in the Dome (much lower revenue) and year 1 in Target Field. We are under 40% now.

 

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3017356

[DaveW]

I'm actually thinking that may be a "Yes" (which is actually a No, hitting may not make him the regular catcher):

 

 

• Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 2h
  #mntwins are "very pleased" with Kurt Suzuki, Antony said. "he's going to be our starting catcher, i would think."
   
   
   
  That may change later, of course.
  

 

We have been over this before in re: Pinto. Replacing Mauer is no easy task, to tell the world that Pinto is the man who is taking over for one of the best catchers in the history of the game puts a ton of pressure on the kid to succeed immediately. There are still questions about if Pinto is ready defensively, and though he was nice in the majors last year it was a seriously SSS.

 

As mentioned, if Pinto can prove to be decent defensively and hits at all, he will end up starting the most games at Catcher this year. If he struggles defensively/needs work, then he will still be getting plenty of at bats at DH assuming he is hitting.

 

The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.

 

Suzuki is not a lifetime veteran backup. In fact, 2013 was the first time he'd ever been a backup. And he still wound up starting a majority of games and netting 300+ PA (although it was more a function of Ramos injury, I think).

[jokin]

Suzuki is not a lifetime veteran backup. In fact, 2013 was the first time he'd ever been a backup. And he still wound up starting a majority of games and netting 300+ PA (although it was more a function of Ramos injury, I think).

 

Yeah, well....for some Twins fans, maybe even Dave and I, 2013 sure seemed like a lifetime.

[Dman]

I have to say the 52% argument is getting to be a bit of a tired line. Yep the Twins have money to burn, the owner won't use profits from this year and move them forward to future years. We can afford pretty much any free agent we want and they could spend up to their self imposed cap to provide us with a better team. I've got that and it's been on most every post involving free agents on this board. Thing is the spending is out of our control and this topic of 52% has been beaten to death.

 

I prefer the analysis of the players we have, or possible trades etc to reading about the 52% argument every day. I for one could do without hearing about it for the rest of the year.

[Mike Sixel]

It will save me a ton of money if the roster is Willingham, Mastro, Kubel, Suzuki, Plouffe, Floriman, as 6 of the regular nine......because I actually do withhold my money when a pro sports team puts a bad product on the field that offers no hope.

 

As for the argument about money.....it is usually posters on these board stating "they should be glad they didn't overpay/spend that much money on that guy", and THEN those of us that believe they have plenty of money ask why that matters......since they have plenty of money in the coffers. But I'm happy to leave that conversation now.

 

I believe Santana was a better signing opportunity than Pelfrey. Pelf wasn't that good before the injury......I think Pelf is a 5ht starter, and for a team that won't spend $150MM+ on payroll, that spot should be taken up by a guy trying to earn his way onto the roster, not by a veteran that was never all that good to begin with.

[Guest USAFChief]

Just a friendly mod reminder: we discourage posts with an "I dont want to read that" angle.

[PseudoSABR]

Honestly, I see the same posters with the same complaints about money and revenue; and the same folks trying to fence those complaints. Can we get some moderation so not every thread turns into this same overwrought discussion where it is already so clear where everyone stands.

[PseudoSABR]

Just a friendly mod reminder: we discourage posts with an "I dont want to read that" angle.

How else should we let you know? Do I flag every post by the couple of posters that (IMO) derail threads? That seems extreme and annoying for everyone. I don't think it's too much to ask you guys to be proactive about it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The Twins handled the Santana and Garza situation correctly, IMO. Lowball them late in the offseason and if one bites, great. If not, that's fine. I think they should be focusing on offense at this point anyway.

 

Hopefully they feel the same way.

 

But -- how many guys ever sign true lowball offers? I can't really think of any, of the top of my head. The point of taking advantage of the market isn't about trying to get a lowball steal 1% of the time, but getting an asset at a discount more frequently than that.

 

IMO, the Garza offer was less of a lowball -- slight lowball in terms of years more than AAV. Although it hurts that the offer that beat us basically just added a 4th guaranteed year at $8 mil. Not all "guaranteed 4th years" are equal -- that's Hughes/Pelfrey gambling money. (Although I still strongly suspect Garza didn't prefer a Twins reunion and/or preferred Milwaukee and staying in the NL Central.)

 

Santana has been healthier but a little more up and down over his career. 3/30 or even 3/33 seems lowball in both years and dollars, and would have been completely inappropriate if it wasn't March and Santana wasn't desperate to get back on the field. I would have like to see them make more of an honest offer here -- 3/39 would have been a lowball in years, but not AAV, and could have snagged us an asset. Or 4/44 would have been lowball in AAV but not years.

[Mike Sixel]

Maybe every time they don't spend money, the same posters shouldn't come here and say it is a good thing they didn't, because it would have been bad for business? That would stop me from saying "they have plenty of money".

[jokin]

No it is dumb to bring up in every freaking thread. This thread is about if the Twins should sign Drew and/or Morales, and it is pretty clear that the Twins have the budget to do so. They have enough to sign both, it literally has nothing to do with this 52% stuff.

 

I would love to hear which top prospects are getting held back in favor of place-holders?

Is Arica not getting a shot? Is Hicks not giving a shot to regain the starting position? Does anyone honestly think that Pinto won't be the regular catcher if he hits at all? Is Gibson not being given ops?

 

We agree, that the Twins have the money to sign Santana, Drew and Morales. Why they aren't doing so is what's up for debate- there's nothing "literal" about it. The club made it publicly known that they intended to commit financially to putting a quality product on the field, year-in, year-out, they've obviously failed in that effort.

 

Pinto has been given very short-shrift since October- they brought in a journeyman guy who, for all intents and purposes, has been annointed by the interim boss for the starting job, and the boss has fallen all over himself in the wonders of what Fryer brings to the table.

 

Gibson has been in the "afterthought" range of discussion for the #5 spot, at best, the Twins seem pretty intent on not having to give away any of their out-of-option, fringy SP arms, if they can help it.

 

TR previously mentioned how much he likes Presley, Hicks didn't win any friends in managment by choosing not to play winter ball, his fate is in great doubt to start the season.

 

And I sure hope Arcia wins his spot, he's the one guy in this mix that I think has the best shot to open the season.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, back to the original thread topic:

 

What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

 

Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.

[DaveW]

Are you really the arbiter of what is and isn't "worthwhile" on Twins Daily? How the billionaire runs his business is very important to many Twins fans and the option of more aggresive use of resources should always be open to debate. And after all, the owner made many Twins fans his "partners' in the building of the stadium, which in turn, tripled the value of "his"/"our" franchise- do Twins fans have a right of any say at all in that "partnership", or not? Your suggestion to "stop" can go both ways. You can simply "stop" reading the posts that bother you.

 

Unless you own shares in the Twins you are not a partner. You are a consumer, if you don't like how the owner is running things, then stop going, stop watching. There is no solution any of you are offering other than "The Pohlads should spend more money!" "The Pohlads are cheap" it solves nothing and clutters up the discussion for everyone else trying to talk about baseball. Additionally, in an off-season where the Twins have been the most aggressive in the history of the franchise (and one of the more aggressive teams overall in baseball this off-season) this constant chatting about 52% comes off as nothing more then whining (I would use a different word) for the sake of whining.

[PseudoSABR]

Also, back to the original thread topic:

 

What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

 

Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.

If there's a realistic chance that we can resign them long term, I say go for it. But a one year deal doesn't make sense for the same reasons it didn't with Santana--we're still rebuilding.

[DaveW]

We agree, that the Twins have the money to sign Santana, Drew and Morales. Why they aren't doing so is what's up for debate- there's nothing "literal" about it. The club made it publicly known that they intended to commit financially to putting a quality product on the field, year-in, year-out, they've obviously failed in that effort.

 

Pinto has been given very short-shrift since October- they brought in a journeyman guy who, for all intents and purposes, has been annointed by the interim boss for the starting job, and the boss has fallen all over himself in the wonders of what Fryer brings to the table.

 

Gibson has been in the "afterthought" range of discussion for the #5 spot, at best, the Twins seem pretty intent on not having to give away any of their out-of-option, fringy SP arms, if they can help it.

 

TR previously mentioned how much he likes Presley, Hicks didn't win any friends in managment by choosing not to play winter ball, his fate is in great doubt to start the season.

 

And I sure hope Arcia wins his spot, he's the one guy in this mix that I think has the best shot to open the season.

 

Gibson and Hicks fell completely on their faces last year in the majors, it would be ludicrous to hand either one a job without earning it in spring training. If they aren't ready at this point, is it recall beneficial to have them "learning in the bigs" hitting .190 and having a 5.60 ERA?

 

The second Hicks/Gibson prove ready for another shot I am pretty positive they will get it.

 

Pinto as mentioned is a SSS guy, and their are still questions on if he can stick defensively, he absolutely should have to earn the job.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The fact that the Twins signed a lifetime veteran back up like Suzuki instead of a starter like Salty or traded for a young catcher from the Braves etc, should tell you that it is Pinto's position to win. Sort of like how it was Doziers position to win (2B) last year when the Twins didn't bring in any legit threats to own that position.

 

Also, by this logic, what does it mean that the Twins openly admit they made offers to Pierzynski and Salty? That suggests the Twins did NOT want to give the starting job to Pinto, and I don't know if that feeling changes just because they settled for an inferior acquisition in Suzuki.

[DaveW]

If there's a realistic chance that we can resign them long term, I say go for it. But a one year deal doesn't make sense for the same reasons it didn't with Santana--we're still rebuilding.

I would consider giving Drew a one year deal, but honestly, I don't see why he wouldn't just take the 3/30 or whatever we would offer instead.

 

Morales...meh. Not worth it for one year IMO. We have some options that can play DH (Willingham, kubel, Pinto, Parmelee) we don't have any real internal SS options.

[cmathewson]

Also, back to the original thread topic:

 

Not a moment too soon.

 

What do you folks think of Drew and Morales? If they fold and accept a Nelson Cruz type 1/8 deal, would you do that? I don't like giving up the draft pick for a one-year asset, and if they sign for 1/8, it's probably not a good idea to give them a 1/15 qualifying offer next offseason... but hopefully by that point, reality would set in and they'd be more amenable to a 3/24 type deal.

 

Who knows what Boras is pushing for, though.

 

I would be more favorable towards offensive help, especially considering the options are Florimon and Kubel. I wouldn't even be too peeved about the draft picks.

 

I had a dream last night that we signed Drew and Morales and traded Florimon to the Sox (as Bogearts insurance) for the second-round pick. Thus we only surrendered a third rounder and some money to upgrade those two spots in the order. I woke up with a smile on my face.

[TheLeviathan]

Gibson could prove it all spring and still not get a shot. The Twins didn't do a great job building depth behind Gibson as well significantly ahead of him. Most of what they have is marginally better. It would've been nice to sort out some of those things in advance of March because Gibson may have a real hard time making this club before June or July barring utter catastrophe.

 

I would hope Pinto and Hicks are here early and often, but that might not be true either. Their past decision-making has not always been easy to agree with on how they choose veteran vs. young player. It's a valid and fair criticism.

 

In any case, I'm not interested in Drew for anything less or more than 2 years and probably the same for Morales.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I was planning on contributing, but I think I'm going to have to be a moderator with this thread. Let's tone everything down. As well, just a reminder, but TD policy is pretty clear where moderation actions need to be discussed. There is a reporting function for posts and this is a really good place where it should be used.

 

As well, if people are tired of the 52% thing, it's quite easy to simply not respond to it. Just a thought.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Trying to steer this back on topic a bit. Here's the real issue with signing Santana as I see it.

 

1) He's not as consistent as you'd like

2) He's going to cost a 2nd rounder

3) We have 4 pitchers under contact this season, only one is not going to be under contract next year.

4) We have promising prospects in Meyer and Gibson as well as some wild cards in Darnell, May, Deduno, Worley, and Diamond.

5) This wasn't going to be a short term deal.

 

Given that, I can see why it is that the Twins only wanted Santana on a bargain. There's a lot of risk here. Risk in losing a guy that turns out good. Risk in Santana turning back into a pumpkin. Risk in blocking prospects... etc. It's about risk. They didn't think Santana was worth the risk at the price he was asking. Neither did, I might add, the rest of MLB.

 

There's a time and a place to spend that money. I don't think this was it.

[DaveW]

As well, if people are tired of the 52% thing, it's quite easy to simply not respond to it. Just a thought.

 

Ok fair enough, I'm just going to start bringing up long winded Mark DeRosa rants in every thread then.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I had a dream last night that we signed Drew and Morales and traded Florimon to the Sox (as Bogearts insurance) for the second-round pick. Thus we only surrendered a third rounder and some money to upgrade those two spots in the order. I woke up with a smile on my face.

 

It must have been a dream, because I don't think you can trade draft picks (only those new extra "competitive balance picks" I think).

 

I suppose you could have Drew officially re-sign with Boston, then they trade him for Florimon... but then the commissioner might get involved, and you wouldn't want Bud Selig appearing in your dreams.

[Craig Arko]

At this point, it probably makes more sense to start looking at trade partners for later in the season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ok fair enough, I'm just going to start bringing up long winded Mark DeRosa rants in every thread then.

 

And how exactly is that different than now?

[tobi0040]

Great, hold them accountable then. Stop watching games, stop going to games if you want to "prove" your point.

 

Stop getting otherwise worthwhile discussions off track every thread to those of us who are fans through thick and thin and don't get worked up on a daily basis how a billionaire owner tries to run his business.

 

Respecfully, we both hold equal sway in the Twins front office (none). Almost every post on this site is an opinion directed at what we want the twins to do. What they should do, criticizing or praising what they did, etc.

 

Wouldn't this whole site simply be the Pohlad's and Terry Ryan discussing roster moves if everyone did what you are suggesting?

[biggentleben]

Do you have to rub it in, Ben? Gotta give your Bravos credit, once Medlen went down they immediately recognized the perfect fit Santana is for their rotation, and acted quickly and decisively to get it done- payroll and potential lost draft pick be damned.

 

LOL! Not meant as a put down on the Twins' handling of the situation. I was just impressed that money seemingly was not an object for a team with such tight financial restrictions. I'm quite intrigued to see how Santana works in the NL, and especially in the NL East, which really has two lineups of any worry, and one of them is his own team.

[cmathewson]

It must have been a dream, because I don't think you can trade draft picks (only those new extra "competitive balance picks" I think).

 

I suppose you could have Drew officially re-sign with Boston, then they trade him for Florimon... but then the commissioner might get involved, and you wouldn't want Bud Selig appearing in your dreams.

 

That's more like a nightmare. But, in my dream, Boston got competitive balance picks because they're not the Yankees. Anywho, I suppose they could send us a PTBNL--last year's second round pick, after the June Draft.