Chris "Parmalee" ... and other comments on spelling and gramma

[PseudoSABR]

Arrogance pertains to character. So does stubbornness, or refusal to assess one's weaknesses. Why is laziness a special hot button word?

There's a certain blindness in the other flaws I mention. Laziness seems an inadequate, and rather self-serving, explanation. "It's because I work so hard that my grammar is polished." Well, it might just be easier for you, because your brain latches onto details and is hardwired for rules. That my brain deprioritizes the cosmetics of prose for other factors, doesn't make me lazy, it makes me different.

 

I still don't think that grammar or cosmetics in general matter all that much in actual communication of ideas--though it certainly can some times. And it is out of social graciousness that I make an effort to write with polish, not that I actually think it's so important.

 

For instance there's this paragraph:

"Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteers be at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe."

 

I would suggest lee-way in allowing others to show their deftness where they are most strong suited--and see our priorities as just our own singular set of priorities (perhaps shared culturally, academically, etc., but still likely our own), and not a some biblical standard with which everyone should abide.

[Squirrel]

And it is out of social graciousness that I make an effort to write with polish, not that I actually think it's so important.

 

And this is the difference between being lazy and not when it comes to 'polishing' one's grammar. You are correct that most of us can still understand the point another is making, regardless of the typos, misspellings and grammatical errors; but it really only takes a minute or two to read through one's post to make the simplest corrections before hitting 'post.' For me, having to read through another poster's typos and 'misplaced' grammar and 'switched homonyms' tends to give their points a little less credibility.

[PseudoSABR]

And this is the difference between being lazy and not when it comes to 'polishing' one's grammar. You are correct that most of us can still understand the point another is making, regardless of the typos, misspellings and grammatical errors; but it really only takes a minute or two to read through one's post to make the simplest corrections. For me, having to read through another poster's typos and 'misplaced' grammar and 'switched homonyms' tends to give their points a little less credibility.

For you it takes a minute or two. For me, I keep working on precision, and find new ways to express my ideas when I read through my prose. I have to willfully stop trying to communicate, and concentrate on cosmetics, because other people think I should--not because it has actual intrinsic value. It is a concession of my priorities that I make (something that goes far beyond what others would call my former laziness). It's taken me years of effort and thousand of pages of writing to get my brain and my habits to abide by such. A minute or two for you, years for me. (Those who've watched me post since the ESPN board probably can attest to my improved polish, especially in the last couple years).

 

Again, don't assume everyone's brain works the same way. We're all wired differently.

[TheLeviathan]

For you it takes a minute or two. For me, I keep working on precision, and find new ways to express my ideas when I read through my prose. I have to willfully stop trying to communicate, and concentrate on cosmetics, because other people think I should--not because it has actual intrinsic value. It is a concession of my priorities that I make (something that goes far beyond what others would call my former laziness). It's taken me years of effort and thousand of pages of writing to get my brain and my habits to abide by such. A minute or two for you, years for me. (Those who've watched me post since the ESPN board probably can attest to my improved polish, especially in the last couple years).

 

Again, don't assume everyone's brain works the same way. We're all wired differently.

 

For what it's worth...I do the same thing. I know that I make grammatical errors frequently because my brain and my fingers don't work at the same speed. And sometimes, even when I re-read it looking for grammar, my brain starts working on revision of wording/emphasis more than grammar. I almost feel like my brain just doesn't care as much about grammar as it does, as you say, about the intrinsic value of what I'm saying.

 

So, you're not alone. I share your views about it not always being a matter of laziness. I'd say it's more about priorities.

[Squirrel]

For you it takes a minute or two. For me, I keep working on precision, and find new ways to express my ideas when I read through my prose. I have to willfully stop trying to communicate, and concentrate on cosmetics, because other people think I should--not because it has actual intrinsic value. It is a concession of my priorities that I make (something that goes far beyond what others would call my former laziness). It's taken me years of effort and thousand of pages of writing to get my brain and my habits to abide by such. A minute or two for you, years for me. (Those who've watched me post since the ESPN board probably can attest to my improved polish, especially in the last couple years).

 

Again, don't assume everyone's brain works the same way. We're all wired differently.

 

I'm not asking for perfection. I'm not even asking for anything as it is up to us individually how we want to present our arguments. And I am still able to appreciate a good thought even when riddled with errors. But it does detract. Whether or not that's fair is another debate. But it does detract. And I know your posting well enough through the years to know the effort you put into it so while you are taking this personally to some degree, I do not point this at you whatsoever.

 

As for how people's brains work, my sister is an educator and this is a very key component to her teaching style so I am well aware of that. However, basic lessons need not be overlooked for the sake of hurrying to make a post. There are many reasons going on here ... an intentional lack of caring is different from one who just has difficulties.

[Silky]

I'm in total agreement with PseudoSABR. My pet peeve is when people comment on the grammatical mistakes in a post instead of the content. The purpose of posting is to have a conversation/discussion, however, it seems that many lose the intent by picking out the meaningless mistakes that "bother" the reader.

 

"Say It Ain't SanO..."

[PseudoSABR]

But it does detract.

I don't want to hound this to death. But--for you--it detracts. Not for me. That you can't overlook errors, or that it detracts from the content, says something about your priorities or preferences, not something universal.

 

I've been teaching writing for more than a decade. One of the strategies I use is that I correct my students' grammar, but never deduct points, and I emphasize them cultivating a voice that is persuasive and organized--and those students with severe grammar problems inevitably get better and better at grammar as there desire to be heard increases.

[Monkeypaws]

I could care less, grammer nazis are dominate.

[TheLeviathan]

As for how people's brains work, my sister is an educator and this is a very key component to her teaching style so I am well aware of that. However, basic lessons need not be overlooked for the sake of hurrying to make a post. There are many reasons going on here ... an intentional lack of caring is different from one who just has difficulties.

 

As someone who has studied philosophy and theology, I can share that some of our greatest minds with some of the most profound ideas ever put to paper by human beings have absolutely some of the worst grammar and sentence structure you'll ever encounter. Pseudo's right - it's about priorities, not laziness or incompetence as a writer.

 

I certainly can see how it annoys you, but that doesn't annoy my brain. I easily see what the person meant and move on. I don't dwell on it and it doesn't detract from the central point for me. We of this persuasion take a pretty fierce beating these days for our priorities and I think it gets lost that our concentration on substance rather than style isn't all bad.

[DuluthFan]

I have an idea. Perhaps the Twins should cut, waive, trade or sell to Korea this Chris P guy whose name no one can spell. It is obvious to all concerned that he is the cause of the Twins poor play due to people obsessing over the spelling of his name. He is currently the subject of a thread on Twins Daily that has regressed into a grammar lesson that provides no constructive feedback or debate on how to improve the Twins major league team. Except this: no one can spell his name and it is distracting from the productive back and forth discourse by amateur baseball evaluators on a fan site to finding a solution to fielding a competitive major league baseball team for both the short and long term. Removing this player immediately from the team will solve all of the Twins current problems and finally end this pointless thread so that all of these knowledgeable and diehard thread posters can concentrate on the important topics of debating the upcoming 25 man and 40 man roster decisions which will not be made for several weeks.

 

*The above post contains just the smallest bit of sarcasm. It is for entertainment purposes only and was not intended as a direct attack on any particular poster or posters in general. I was bored and annoyed that I read this thread in it's entirety and cannot get the lost time that I devoted to reading this thread back. Perhaps I will be lucky in the choice of the next thread I read and will not have to submit myself to reading non-baseball related topics on a baseball site. One can only hope....

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have an idea. Perhaps the Twins should cut, waive, trade or sell to Korea this Chris P guy whose name no one can spell. It is obvious to all concerned that he is the cause of the Twins poor play due to people obsessing over the spelling of his name. He is currently the subject of a thread on Twins Daily that has regressed into a grammar lesson that provides no constructive feedback or debate on how to improve the Twins major league team. Except this: no one can spell his name and it is distracting from the productive back and forth discourse by amateur baseball evaluators on a fan site to finding a solution to fielding a competitive major league baseball team for both the short and long term. Removing this player immediately from the team will solve all of the Twins current problems and finally end this pointless thread so that all of these knowledgeable and diehard thread posters can concentrate on the important topics of debating the upcoming 25 man and 40 man roster decisions which will not be made for several weeks.

 

*The above post contains just the smallest bit of sarcasm. It is for entertainment purposes only and was not intended as a direct attack on any particular poster or posters in general. I was bored and annoyed that I read this thread in it's entirety and cannot get the lost time that I devoted to reading this thread back. Perhaps I will be lucky in the choice of the next thread I read and will not have to submit myself to reading non-baseball related topics on a baseball site. One can only hope....

 

You used the wrong form of "its".

 

*ducks and runs*

[DocBauer]

I am a poet, a writer, a former English major, etc. And proper grammar is a huge pet peeve of mine. Especially when speaking. However, with blogging not being a formal report or resume, I tend not to be too bothered by simple mistakes.

 

Forgetting for a moment just how complicated our language is, i can forgive punctuation mistakes. Blantant misuse of words is hard to take through. But, i no that word correction often mis-fires when I am rushing along and fingers can't quite keep up with thoughts. Or a letter key might be struck but not b registered on my talent for some reason.

 

Less we forget that me and others imbibe in an adult beverage or two while relaxing and enjoying out time at Twins Daily as well has to be considered. I can't stand laziness, but I think some are a little to worrisome about a bad auto correct or simple misspelling or bad or touchy keystroke or keyboard versus the actual context of what is being said as long as its not manifesting itself in what becomes a run-on sentence in whch the entire point is eventually lost on the reader from the sharer's original creative output.

 

But I agree that proper spelling of a person's name is just decent courtesy whenever possible.

 

Imagine how Kent Herbek must feel?

 

(wink)

[JB_Iowa]

I am also someone whose fingers often get ahead of my brain. I've on occasion found myself typing "two" instead of "too", etc. I try to go back and re-read (and often go back and edit even after I've posted) but I know I still miss things sometimes.

 

But there seems to be a difference between that type of problem and repetitive misuse of certain words like lose-loose or your-you're, etc. Many of us screw up occasionally -- it's when I see it repetitively that I start to wonder. There are sites were "loose" or "loosing" is used more often than "lose" or "losing". (And if you want any even bigger complaint from me, it is the constant misuse of "myself" by a wide portion of the populace including many people regularly speaking on our television screens. It appears that "myself" is now a 1st person pronoun -- it makes me want to scream.)

 

I hold articles to a significantly higher standard than I do forum posts. I greatly appreciate the people who are creative enough and knowledgeable enough to write an article and I appreciate the time that they take to do so but I also believe that they need to take the time to double-check spelling and grammar. That is seldom a problem on TD -- the contributors are very good about creating good quality articles (content, grammar & spelling).

 

Overall, I believe the quality of the forum posts on Twins Daily are also superior to most sites. There seems to be more maturity in constructing posts than is present on many other sites.

 

I commented on grammar/spelling in this thread because that's what it's about. I have very rarely commented on it in normal threads where, for the most part, all I care about is whether I understand the ideas put forth.

 

(And I'll probably remember how to spell Parmelee from now on!)

[ashbury]

I was bored and annoyed that I read this thread in it's entirety and cannot get the lost time that I devoted to reading this thread back. Perhaps I will be lucky in the choice of the next thread I read and will not have to submit myself to reading non-baseball related topics on a baseball site. One can only hope....

 

I can assure you that the moderation team takes seriously the issue of hijacking the topic of any thread. In fact, if genuine baseball discussion had broken out in a thread that started with an observation about a common misspelling of a player's name, I am sure warnings from the moderators would already have been liberally applied.

 

/ anyone notice ParmElee is batting .400 so far this spring?

[jokin]

Noones mentioned apostrophe's yet.

 

Wait. What? That guy from Herman's Hermits is getting in on these grammatical pecadillos, too?

[jokin]

I am also someone whose fingers often get ahead of my brain. I've on occasion found myself typing "two" instead of "too", etc. I try to go back and re-read (and often go back and edit even after I've posted) but I know I still miss things sometimes.

 

But there seems to be a difference between that type of problem and repetitive misuse of certain words like lose-loose or your-you're, etc. Many of us screw up occasionally -- it's when I see it repetitively that I start to wonder. There are sites were "loose" or "loosing" is used more often than "lose" or "losing". (And if you want any even bigger complaint from me, it is the constant misuse of "myself" by a wide portion of the populace including many people regularly speaking on our television screens. It appears that "myself" is now a 1st person pronoun -- it makes me want to scream.)

 

I hold articles to a significantly higher standard than I do forum posts. I greatly appreciate the people who are creative enough and knowledgeable enough to write an article and I appreciate the time that they take to do so but I also believe that they need to take the time to double-check spelling and grammar. That is seldom a problem on TD -- the contributors are very good about creating good quality articles (content, grammar & spelling).

 

Overall, I believe the quality of the forum posts on Twins Daily are also superior to most sites. There seems to be more maturity in constructing posts than is present on many other sites.

 

I commented on grammar/spelling in this thread because that's what it's about. I have very rarely commented on it in normal threads where, for the most part, all I care about is whether I understand the ideas put forth.

 

(And I'll probably remember how to spell Parmelee from now on!)

 

The quality of the majority of the posts, gramatically and typographically speaking, on the TD site are often superior to those that post "professionally" on the StarTribune site. Mistakes made by paid writers in those venues really make my skin crawl.

[jokin]

I am a poet, a writer, a former English major, etc. And proper grammar is a huge pet peeve of mine. Especially when speaking. However, with blogging not being a formal report or resume, I tend not to be too bothered by simple mistakes.

 

Forgetting for a moment just how complicated our language is, i can forgive punctuation mistakes. Blantant misuse of words is hard to take through. But, i no that word correction often mis-fires when I am rushing along and fingers can't quite keep up with thoughts. Or a letter key might be struck but not b registered on my talent for some reason.

 

Less we forget that me and others imbibe in an adult beverage or two while relaxing and enjoying out time at Twins Daily as well has to be considered. I can't stand laziness, but I think some are a little to worrisome about a bad auto correct or simple misspelling or bad or touchy keystroke or keyboard versus the actual context of what is being said as long as its not manifesting itself in what becomes a run-on sentence in whch the entire point is eventually lost on the reader from the sharer's original creative output.

 

But I agree that proper spelling of a person's name is just decent courtesy whenever possible.

 

Imagine how Kent Herbek must feel?

 

(wink)

 

Caution. (Subtle) Genius at Work.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Less we forget that me and others imbibe in an adult beverage or two while relaxing and enjoying out time at Twins Daily as well has to be considered.

 

mmmmmmm.... drunken posting.

[twinsin17]

Even though commenting on this thread welcomes considerable (and justified) scrutiny in all future posts I'll join in to offer my two cents. While it is agreeable that well-written posts/replies and blogs indicate greater effort in re-reading and editing oneself, let's not be haste to judge others as the vernacular of a poster who coveys emotion over writing ability has its own merit to be appreciated. For a humble Midwestern franchise like the Twins whose star player, head coach and GM speak solely in cliche I think Twinsdaily readers are doing just fine.

[ashbury]

Caution. (Subtle) Genius at Work.

 

True. William Safire has apparently come back from the dead! And he shure know How To Write Good¹.

 

¹ Fumblerules

[Blackjack]

The purpose of posting is to have a conversation/discussion, however, it seems that many lose the intent by picking out the meaningless mistakes that "bother" the reader.

 

As I read thru this thread I took a few notes - "snobiness", "laziness", "priorities", "lack of caring" are what I wrote down. Then I wondered if 'snobiness' was even a word, typed it into Google, no definition, so I typed in 'snob' and this came up -

 

"One who affects an offensive air of self-satisfied superiority in matters of taste or intellect."

 

Enough said about snobiness.

 

I think spelling and grammar boil down to priorities. A LOT of the posters here are aspiring writers and it’s important to them. I wouldn’t be surprised someday to see credits at the bottom of a post listing magazine, books, blogs, etc. that the poster has written. Quite a few others, myself included (should that be 'me or myself' -- I don't really care), are just here for some in-depth baseball info and will post a quick question or comment on occasion. If I see a misspelling in my post and can't figure it out, I will copy/paste the word into a spellchecker but grammar is a tougher nut to crack, spell checker won't always catch that. Same way with misspelled player’s names, I could go look them up, so yes I guess its laziness when I don’t, but to me it’s not a priority. The content of posts is my priority. Whether I type Parmalee or Parmelee, the readers will get the point.

 

I've participated in a lot of other forums concerning hunting, fishing, home improvement, etc. and this is the only one I've seen that gets so hung up on spelling and grammar vs. content of the posts. I do realize that grammar and spelling reflect on other posters view of you and your posts but not everyone is perfect and/or has had extensive training in English grammar.

 

Yes, I copied this post into a spellchecker and I see that snobiness is not a word but it does a fine job of conveying my point.

[DaveW]

Meh, I will learn how to spell a person's last name correctly once they provide me a reason to remember it. Up to this point Parmelee, Parmalee or whatever hasn't given me a reason to think he will be a meaningful player to track over the coming years (I hope I am wrong)

[nicksaviking]

Poor grammar, misspellings, incorrect puncuation and failing to capitalize letters annoy me greatly.

 

That being said, there have been times I've proof read my own post three or four times and the next day I still found a mistake or at least a passage that I wish I would have written better. Unless I know my past posts are infallible I find it best not to critique, as surely some detective could come back and throw a past mistake of mine back in my face.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Poor grammar, misspellings, incorrect puncuation and failing to capitalize letters annoy me greatly.

 

That being said, there have been times I've proof read my own post three or four times and the next day I still found a mistake or at least a passage that I wish I would have written better. Unless I know my past posts are infallible I find it best not to critique, as surely some detective could come back and throw a past mistake of mine back in my face.

 

Everybody makes mistakes. I certainly make my fair share of them.

 

But I think there's a big difference between making the occasional mistake and trying to correct it versus writing something that is borderline unintelligible, leaning back after a job well done, and smoking a cigar in celebration.

[tobi0040]

100% agree... It's totally a respect thing.

 

The other day Dan Gladden called Buxton "Brian". Maybe when this kid gets more national attention he will figure out his name?

[PseudoSABR]

writing something that is borderline unintelligible, leaning back after a job well done, and smoking a cigar in celebration.

Honestly, has that been happening here?

 

I think we'd all agree if something is unintelligible it's far beyond the forgiveness/pettiness threshold.

[nicksaviking]

Everybody makes mistakes. I certainly make my fair share of them.

 

But I think there's a big difference between making the occasional mistake and trying to correct it versus writing something that is borderline unintelligible, leaning back after a job well done, and smoking a cigar in celebration.

 

I agree. I don't see too many egregious English offenses on this site. I've seen plenty of message boards that are utterly unreadable. We're pretty lucky here, there really aren't that many posts that you shake your head at. We seem to have a pretty articulate group. Or at least a group that puts a strong effort into what they post.

[Brad Swanson]

The other day Dan Gladden called Buxton "Brian". Maybe when this kid gets more national attention he will figure out his name?

 

Ha! I heard that too. Then, I'm 99% certain that he called him "Byron" later, only to correct himself and call him "Brian" again. Classic Dazzle.

 

Oddly enough, I once photoshopped Gladden's hair onto Buxton. It turned out great:

 

[Willihammer]

I wish there were more Afro American skullets in baseball.

[chuchadoro]

I started this topic because Parmelee will be an oft-discussed player this spring and the misspelling of his name seemed to be spreading like a common cold.

 

While I agree with JB that there are much more egregious mistakes (lose, loose), I also agree with others that the comments at TD are constructed better than just about any sports-related site. I wouldn't bother with the comment section if it had the same quality of ESPN or YouTube. I also don't automatically discount what others write just because of a few errors. There are members whose opinions I respect because they know more about the game than I ever will. I am willing to overlook some mistakes because I am familiar with their work and because my writing is far from perfect.

 

That being said, I find the "my fingers move faster than my brain" justification tiresome. You just wrote 100 words, how long does it take to proofread? Don't make hundreds of others slog through your post just because you need your opinion known RIGHT NOW! We will still be here after you glance it over.