Article: Position Battle: Catcher

[cmathewson]

What I think we see next season, more than likely. Not was I opposed to doing so this season after we stick out on AJP. However, I like splitting up the youngsters for more consistent AB's for Herrmann, as well as an experienced, current backstop to help mentor.

 

I don't get the Hermann love. By the numbers, Fryer is the better hitter and has the much better glove. Yeah Hermann has some versatility, but why would Gardy want to put a guy who hits like Butera in the outfield?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Does anybody else feel a little guilty about sending Pinto back to AAA? If catcher careers are shorter and more volatile than other positions (witness our two catchers who more or less quit catching last season), every day Pinto's not in MLB at this point doesn't help his financial outlook. I don't know what his original signing bonus was, but it probably wasn't much -- I don't recall him being a well-known international prospect. And he's been making minor league wages since. Heck, for the talk of his winter ball shoulder issue, he probably has to play winter ball just to make ends meet (and if he's catching during winter ball, that just adds to the risk).

 

Maybe I've been thinking too much about that lawsuit by the minor leaguers recently... but I'm inclined to let Pinto play in MLB now. He's not young anymore, and he's hit at every level. It just doesn't seem to right to send him down for further refinement (while we conveniently pause his service time clock). Suzuki can spell him a few days a week, and he and the MLB pitchers can probably provide Pinto with more mentorship than their AAA counterparts.

[diehardtwinsfan]

yeah, I don't get the Pinto to AAA thing either. He raked in AA, and got promoted mid season to AAA and did quite well there too. His September was obviously an outlier, but certainly encouraging regardless. I think he gets the job out of camp though Suzuki is likely going to be the opening day starter. Pinto will stay up as long as he's doing OK.

[stringer bell]

Well, getting another year of control is an issue. Pinto has a month of ML service time and I fully expect him to spend April in Rochester. Beyond that, he only was in Rochester for 19 games and about 75 plate appearances. I expect that he would benefit a bit from another month in AAA. It isn't fair to him to delay free agency, but all major league teams do it, from the Yankees to the Marlins.

[cmathewson]

I think Pinto earned his spot in September. Given the offensive issues with Suzuki, I would be shocked if he doesn't make the team. Fryer and Hermann are pure back-ups. Pinto is the future, and Suzuki is here because he's the perfect complement to Pinto.

[Otto von Ballpark]

For a non-elite player, the extra year of control is actually of pretty minimal value. If he's good enough to be worth his arbitration salary in that extra year, odds are he will sign a long-term contract much earlier covering that year anyway.

[PseudoSABR]

Suzuki has been 28th and 27th in catcher war (espn version) over the last two years.....why would you play him and not Pinto? Why not give the young guy a shot?

Because there's more to catching than WAR. Pinto's ability to handle the pitching staff is the probably the biggest unknown and strike against him.

[Mike Sixel]

There's more to catching than "handling a staff"...like hitting and fielding as "traditionally" measured. He's not good at those.

[TheLeviathan]

So you don't buy the claim that Mauer will stay healthier and stronger by moving to first base? That's what I was saying. And I fail to see how comparing his lack of health at catcher last has any bearing to this year.

 

You are comparing production by positions no? People are double dipping their predictions because they project improvement at first because Mauer > Morneau and then citing Mauer's lack of health as a drain on 2013 catching numbers. But the Twins' production at catcher actually got better after he was hurt. Recognizing that only further widens the downgrade.

 

As as for the position change and Mauer, I find all the hefty improvements being predicted as mighty dubious. I'm guessing whatever difficult-to-quantify help the switch is may be easily offset by Mauer's aging and bat speed. But I hope I'm wrong.

[Mike Sixel]

levi....to me its about more at bats from their best hitter, not that he'll hit better......though that is possible.

[TheLeviathan]

levi....to me its about more at bats from their best hitter, not that he'll hit better......though that is possible.

 

That's probably true, but people lump them both together more than is fair to do. And that has been particularly true when we are trying to project the offense relative to last year.

 

I think people need to at least recognize that C/1B/DH could be an enormous downgrade this year if Pinto isn't ready or has a rough adjustment period to full-time duties. It might be even if he comes up and does ok.

[jokin]

That's probably true, but people lump them both together more than is fair to do. And that has been particularly true when we are trying to project the offense relative to last year.

 

Kudos to an excellent point. I think people need to at least recognize that C/1B/DH could be an enormous downgrade this year if Pinto isn't ready or has a rough adjustment period to full-time duties. It might be even if he comes up and does ok.

 

We had this debate on another thread, much like the trading of Span and Revere without a backup plan to Hicks ended up creating a huge hole in the 2013 lineup, the loss of Morneau has also not been adequately replaced with a meaningful backup plan for 2014- and there is a degree of denial, hope and wishcasting on the part of Twins management and some fans. Some combination of 5 major question marks: Pinto, Kubel, Parmelee, Colabello, Willingham- has to REALLY come thorugh to avoid the C/1B/DH from being an "enormous downgrade" year over year.

[Marta Shearing]

Does anybody else feel a little guilty about sending Pinto back to AAA? If catcher careers are shorter and more volatile than other positions (witness our two catchers who more or less quit catching last season), every day Pinto's not in MLB at this point doesn't help his financial outlook. I don't know what his original signing bonus was, but it probably wasn't much -- I don't recall him being a well-known international prospect. And he's been making minor league wages since. Heck, for the talk of his winter ball shoulder issue, he probably has to play winter ball just to make ends meet (and if he's catching during winter ball, that just adds to the risk).

 

Maybe I've been thinking too much about that lawsuit by the minor leaguers recently... but I'm inclined to let Pinto play in MLB now. He's not young anymore, and he's hit at every level. It just doesn't seem to right to send him down for further refinement (while we conveniently pause his service time clock). Suzuki can spell him a few days a week, and he and the MLB pitchers can probably provide Pinto with more mentorship than their AAA counterparts.

Spot on post. I just do not understand why the Twins are so intent on him starting the season in AAA. Why not finish his development at the major league level? Because it could cost them making the playoffs? Ridiculous.

 

Then we got Antony on the radio basically calling him fat. And when he said Friar was the most polished catcher on the team I almost punched my radio. He's got no business in the major leagues. Him making the team is an organizational embarrassment.

[jokin]

Spot on post. I just do not understand why the Twins are so intent on him starting the season in AAA. Why not finish his development at the major league level? Because it could cost them making the playoffs? Ridiculous.

 

Then we got Antony on the radio basically calling him fat. And when he said Friar was the most polished catcher on the team I almost punched my radio. He's got no business in the major leagues.

 

Him making the team is an organizational embarrassment.

 

It wouldn't be the first time. Drew Buter says "Hi".

 

http://i.cdn.turner.com/si/multimedia/photo_gallery/1206/mlb.poll.best.catcher/images/Drew-Butera.jpg

[Otto von Ballpark]

Spot on post. I just do not understand why the Twins are so intent on him starting the season in AAA. Why not finish his development at the major league level? Because it could cost them making the playoffs? Ridiculous.

 

Then we got Antony on the radio basically calling him fat. And when he said Friar was the most polished catcher on the team I almost punched my radio. He's got no business in the major leagues. Him making the team is an organizational embarrassment.

 

I'm not offended by some Fryer love -- he's my irrational favorite Twin now, and he may be a low average guy, but he at least draws some walks and has enough power to keep pitchers honest. Career .762 OPS in the minors, was .704 at AAA last year despite a .215 AVG. With defense, he could become a perfectly acceptable MLB backup.

 

By comparison, Butera was a .607 OPS minor leaguer, with a .561 at AAA. Almost regardless of his defensive rep, it was borderline criminal for him to be the extent of our catching depth behind Mauer.

 

We're agreed on Pinto, though. No reason Suzuki has to be the starter, even to open the season.

[PseudoSABR]

Pinto has played 19 games at AAA; it's completely sensible to start him at AAA.

[Marta Shearing]

Even considering how well he hit for the Twins last year? He's the 3rd best hitter on the team behind mauer and Arcia.

[PseudoSABR]

Even considering how well he hit for the Twins last year? He's the 3rd best hitter on the team behind mauer and Arcia.

In 21 games. Remember Parmelee's hot September?

 

Let's see how he does once he's been exposed to the league a couple times and the scouting reports on him are well circulated.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pinto has played 19 games at AAA; it's completely sensible to start him at AAA.

 

Arcia played 10 games at AAA before he became our second best hitter (admittedly a low bar last year ). And he hadn't even turned 22.

 

What number of games is a 25 year old player required to play in AAA before he can be promoted?

 

Why not just let him compete for the job this spring? Shouldn't our front office and coaches be able to identify and avoid a potential 2012 Dozier or 2013 Hicks without arbitrarily assigning levels based on games played?

[ashbury]

Arcia played 10 games at AAA before he became our second best hitter (admittedly a low bar last year ). And he hadn't even turned 22.

 

What number of games is a 25 year old player required to play in AAA before he can be promoted?

 

Why not just let him compete for the job this spring? Shouldn't our front office and coaches be able to identify and avoid a potential 2012 Dozier or 2013 Hicks without arbitrarily assigning levels based on games played?

 

completely sensible >> arbitrarily assigning levels