Mackey: Mentioning Mauer with Puckett... Sacrilege?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Post-season heroics are enough for most people to say Puckett easily tops Mauer. But he was a cold starter in playoffs series. If the rest of his team had performed in the post-season like Mauer's Twins did I think Puckett is looked at differently.

 

In games 1 through 4 of all his playoff series, Puckett hit .227/.278/.424 with 1 HR and 7 RBI. Over games 5 through 7, he hit .457/.500/.714. Mauer never got a chance to hit in games 5 through 7.

 

SSS aside, beautiful post.

 

Kirby helped his teams win. Kirby did not win those championships by himself. If Mauer had even half the support Kirby had in 87 and 91, the Twins advance at least once or twice.

 

IMO, Mauer is the better player and it's not even particularly close. Would Mauer hit .360 every season if he got to play in the SuperBall-era Metrodome? It's possible, maybe even likely. With the frequency he puts the ball on the ground, he'd be a hit machine in that stadium.

[Mike Sixel]

Put Mauer in the dome.....in the live ball era? He's already hit 2 times as many HRs, and is already the best catcher of all time, well, close....

[Seth Stohs]

You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score. In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs. Thats why Puckett is a legend, and Mauer isn't.....yet. And to say Puckett wouldnt have had the opportunity to be a playoff hero if not for everything around him falling into place is preposterous.

 

... but also true...

[cmathewson]

... but also true...

 

Damn you Phil Cuzzi!

[Uncle Jesse's Mullet]

Yes, it is absolutely sacrilege to mention Mauer in the same breath as Kirby. In terms of sheer talent, yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better) but in terms of players I would pay money to go see? No. Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.

[Jerr]

Killebrew, Carew, Mauer, Puckett, Olivia, Santana, Bleyleven, Hrbek

 

Puckett is my all time favorite player ever, however IMO Mauer has already surpassed him.

Mauer is already one of the best 3 or 4 catchers of all time, Puckett was/is a definite hall of famer, but not even close to one of the best CF of all time.

 

Mauer plays a harder position, and significantly beats Puckett in Avg, OBP, OPS, OPS+. Mauer has 3 batting titles vs Puckett's 1. 1 MVP (should have been 2) vs 0. Puckett has the advantage in All Star games and home runs. At this point I think Mauer has proven to be a better player then Puckett in his 9(ish) years.

 

Assuming Mauer has another 3-4 great years hitting wise followed by 2-3 good years, I think he surpasses Carew as well and becomes the 2nd greatest player in Franchise History.

 

And THAT, ends the "argument";)

[D. Hocking]

' date=' he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.[/quote']

 

You never saw the episode the Three Stooges guest-starred on Maude? Her scene with Curly is slapstick gold.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score.

 

You just made a pretty convincing argument why Mauer's playoff stats don't matter. Dude hits a double, has it taken away, still draws a walk, and then stands on base for the rest of the half inning. What's he supposed to do at that point?

 

In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs.

 

Puckett had a .208 BA and a .538 OPS in his first five playoff games. The Twins still advanced. In the WS, he had a decent but unspectacular .884 OPS. That's Puckett's first 12 playoff games and the Twins won a world series, largely without Kirby's help.

 

Compare that to Mauer, who had a really bad .432 OPS in his first three playoff games. The Twins were swept.

 

Then Joe went and posted a 1.000 OPS in his next three playoff games, despite being robbed of a double by Phil Cuzzi. The Twins were swept.

 

Then Joe had another bad series, posting a .558 OPS in three more games. Again, the Twins were swept.

 

Looking over those series, I draw one conclusion: no matter what Joe did, it couldn't prevent a sweep because nobody else was hitting or pitching. In 2009, he got on base 50% of the time against the Yankees. And, again, the Twins were swept. Not really sure what you expect a guy to do at that point.

[Brock Beauchamp]

In terms of sheer talent' date=' yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better)[/quote']

 

You have that backwards. Adjusted for era, Mauer's offensive numbers are quite a bit better than Puckett's and both were premium defenders in their primes, though Mauer played at the more valuable position.

[SydneyTwinsFan]

Comparing their best 5 seasons:

 

bWAR

Mauer: 7.8, 5.8, 5.7, 5.6, 5.4

Puckett: 7.7, 7.1, 5.6, 4.9, 4.3

 

OPS+

Mauer: 171, 144, 144, 140, 140

Puckett: 153, 142, 139, 132, 131

 

Pretty close in WAR, as you might expect, but clear advantage to Mauer in terms of OPS+. He also has the opportunity to add to his record over the next few years

[kblack1011]

Killebrew

Carew

Puckett

Oliva

Mauer

Santana

 

Oliva's first 10 years he was consistently all-star and top 20 player. If they had micro surgery in the 70's, Oliva would have been a first ballot Hall member. Moving to first should help Mauer extend career and production should be better. But for now, Oliva slightly better and no question Puckett was better at this stage. Puckett was top 10 MVP player 7 out of his 12 years. Johann was great during his time with Minnesota, clearly better than Hrbek who just had longevity with Twins. Hrbek was a borderline all-star, but never was a good of a player as he could have been.

[jm3319]

You guys gotta stop going with this one. After the blown call, Mauer still ended up getting on, as well as the next two hitters. Bases loaded, nobody out, and they still didnt score. In nine playoff games he's had one extra base hit and one rbi. Legends are made in the playoffs. Thats why Puckett is a legend, and Mauer isn't.....yet. And to say Puckett wouldnt have had the opportunity to be a playoff hero if not for everything around him falling into place is preposterous.

 

Um, what? Please do explain. I wasn't aware Kirby scored all the teams' runs with solo homeruns to win the World Series.

 

The highlighted pieces of this quote are, by definition, a double-standard. Player A does his job, team fails=Player A's fault. Player B does his job, team does it's job=Player B gets all the credit. Makes no sense.

[cmathewson]

Comparing their best 5 seasons:

 

bWAR

Mauer: 7.8, 5.8, 5.7, 5.6, 5.4

Puckett: 7.7, 7.1, 5.6, 4.9, 4.3

 

OPS+

Mauer: 171, 144, 144, 140, 140

Puckett: 153, 142, 139, 132, 131

 

Pretty close in WAR, as you might expect, but clear advantage to Mauer in terms of OPS+. He also has the opportunity to add to his record over the next few years

 

And another good argument why they still can't figure out how to calculate WAR for catchers.

[cmathewson]

Yes' date=' it is absolutely sacrilege to mention Mauer in the same breath as Kirby. In terms of sheer talent, yes Mauer is in the conversation (although Kirby is still significantly better) but in terms of players I would pay money to go see? No. Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.[/quote']

 

I finally figured out why people hate Mauer so much. Thank you. They hate Mauer because he puts up good numbers effortlessly. There's no grit, getting after it, battling his tail off.

 

By your criterion, it's more interesting watching nick Punto foul bunts off his face than watching Mauer double down the left field line and glide into second.

[snepp]

And another good argument why they still can't figure out how to calculate WAR for catchers.

 

What argument is that? I didn't see one.

[Guest USAFChief]

I finally figured out why people hate Mauer so much. Thank you. They hate Mauer because he puts up good numbers effortlessly. There's no grit, getting after it, battling his tail off. By your criterion, it's more interesting watching nick Punto foul bunts off his face than watching Mauer double down the left field line and glide into second.

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.

[cmathewson]

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.

 

Mauer isn't in the top 500 if I'm paying money to go see them. Great stats but my god, he is to hitters what Mike Pelfrey is to pitchers or Bea Arthur is to slapstick comedians.

 

From Uncle Jesse's Mullet

[Bark's Lounge]

To be honest, I like Puckett and Mauer the same. They both have brought factors to Twin's baseball that made you excited to watch a game that they were playing in.

 

We can argue about OPS vs. being a clutch player all day long, but no conclusion will ever be made. Why would you want to argue it? We should feel privileged to have been graced by their baseball excellence.

 

I cannot argue with a person who tells me there once was a free-swinging MN Twin who played with the passion of the gods and who was a big part of bringing us fans two World Series Championships...

 

...and I cannot argue with a person who tells me that there is a current Twin who is a wunderkind at the art of hitting and getting on base and he is one of the best to ever put on a Twins uniform.

 

Puckett is in the HOF and I believe Mauer will get there also.

 

I honor the past, live in the present, with my eye on the future.

 

Puckett is a Minnesota Legend because of the big prize, who is to say that Joe Mauer will not be?

 

The future still awaits us.

[cmathewson]

What argument is that? I didn't see one.

 

The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.

[snepp]

The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.

 

I think you've overlooked playing time, a vital component. You can't provide value when you're not on the field.

 

Puckett averaged 20% more plate appearances per season. If Mauer had those additional plate appearances his WAR goes up by roughly a win per year.

[notoriousgod71]

Um, what? Please do explain. I wasn't aware Kirby scored all the teams' runs with solo homeruns to win the World Series.

 

The highlighted pieces of this quote are, by definition, a double-standard. Player A does his job, team fails=Player A's fault. Player B does his job, team does it's job=Player B gets all the credit. Makes no sense.

 

 

If everyone else does their job it doesn't matter what Punto does.

[cmathewson]

Has anyone said they hate Mauer?Some of us have said we enjoyed watching Puckett more. I don't think that means we hate Mauer.

 

Also, some of that was directed at a group of Mauer haters led by some radio clowns, who find fault with his game without much evidence ("No HRs!" "He's lazy!" "He's not a leader like Torii or Puck!"). Their followers actually boo Mauer in Target Field. And it's not just a few, the boos can get loud at times.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The OPS+ numbers strongly favor Mauer, the WAR numbers only slightly favor Mauer. Ergo, Puckett gets more credit for his defense. Yet, when healthy, Mauer was universally regarded as one of the best defensive catchers in the game. Puck had his moments, but he played so deep, his UZR numbers would resemble Hunter's.

 

The WAR numbers also heavily favor Mauer.

 

Puckett and Mauer have almost the same career WAR at this point... Except that Joe is 31 and Puckett retired at 36. Barring injury, Joe will surpass Kirby's WAR by a healthy margin.

[Steve Lein]

I don't think I'd have Hrbek near my top 5, but agree with everyone else.

 

Other names: Santana, Radke, Kaat, Blyleven

[D. Hocking]

I have changed my mind and decided it is sacrilege because that would explain this weather and the roads, and this winter in general. We are being smited from above because of Mackey's sacrilege. Thanks Phil.

 

Hrbek was my brother's favorite player - but he would often go off on his less than svelte physique that grew every year and throughout the season. He always felt he could have been better had he been a bit more disciplined.

[Linus]

I love Kirby but the only way you can justify saying Kirby was better was the post season heroics and that had a lot to do with the team he had around him. Mauer is a better hitter and was better defensively at a more demanding position.

 

Mauer is already a top 5 catcher all time whereas Kirby wouldn't be anywhere close to the top of the list of centerfielders. Let's also not forget that Kirby signed the largest contract in history at that time and Mauer's wasn't so let's give the $23 million reasons argument a rest.

[TwinsThompson]

Puckett and Mauer are both great players, but what sets the two apart in my head is the "clutchness" factor. I have always thought of Kirby as a more clutch player. Probably because I haven't seen Mauer do anything special come playoff time. Has anyone compared the playoff stats of the two? I see some Kirby stats above, but none for Joe. Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.

[stringer bell]

Mauer is an all-timer already and I think he'll add another batting title or two. The Twins have made the playoffs with him, but haven't won a playoff series. If and when they do, I think Mauer's resumé will be better than Kirby's.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Puckett and Mauer are both great players, but what sets the two apart in my head is the "clutchness" factor. I have always thought of Kirby as a more clutch player. Probably because I haven't seen Mauer do anything special come playoff time. Has anyone compared the playoff stats of the two? I see some Kirby stats above, but none for Joe. Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.

 

Kirby had better playoff numbers. Of course, EXTREME small sample size needs to be mentioned here. Joe has all of 39 PAs in the playoffs. That's one road trip during the regular season.

 

On the flip side of that coin, Joe has been a better hitter than Kirby in "RISPy" situations, be that what it may.

 

Joe Mauer has a career 136 OPS+.

 

Kirby Puckett had a career 124 OPS+.

 

With RISP, Joe Mauer has a tOPS+ of 115 (OPS+ relative to his baseline performance).

 

With RISP Puckett had a tOPS+ of 110.

 

So really, people are basing all of this Puckett mystique on a handful of playoff at-bats. Sure, it was great to watch and I adore Puckett as a player. But I'm not going to buy into the idea that a handful of ABs magically make Puckett a better player when every other stat says the opposite.

 

If we're going to make silly evaluations based on a few ABs, we may as well start crucifying Puckett for leaving Gladden on third base in the third inning of game seven in 1991.

[Beemo]

Also, I don't really believe in the breaking down a playoff series by halves. It seems a bit like cherry picking to prove a point.

 

My reason for splitting Kirby's playoff series in half is to show that his clutchness and heroics almost all happened after the point where Joe Mauer's teams were already eliminated. He's not a playoff hero without the rest of his team winning games when he stunk. Kirby hit .167 through the first five games of the 1991 World Series. How "clutch" is he considered if the Twins had lost in five games?

 

That's not to say that Mauer would've had big hits had he seen a game 7 or even a game 4. He's just never had his team help him out like Puckett did.