Article: A Snapshot of Twins Payroll

[OldTwinky]

My big beef with this off season is Pelfrey. Why bring him back? Could just as well get a 95 MPH pitching machine to put on the mound every 5th game.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Until 1975' date=' the rights of a player remained with the team, even after his contract expired. Marvin Miller worked with the Major League Players Association to challenge what is known as "the reserve clause." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reserve_clause

 

So, to say that "there have (sic) always have been free agents..." is only partially true. The "freedom" of a free agent was retained by the parent club until 1975. The collusion of the owners depressed the market for free agents. The rise of player agents in the late 70's and 80's further strengthened the bargaining power of labor--the players.[/quote']

 

Before "free agency", trading players for cash and a bag of balls was extremely common... Which is simply another form of free agency, the only difference is that the players didn't have a say in where they went. At the end of the day, players were moving around in exchange for straight-up cash money.

[johnnydakota]

Florida Marlins , Prince fielder...Yes you are correct about maybe a player gets hurt, or maybe he doesnt play as well as you hoped, but if you sit at home with your tinfoil hat on, afraid to make a mistake, you will miss out on many oppertunities. last seaon we got 3 pretty darn good starters( not my words) and a pair of magic beans(my words) where are our magic beans this year?there are 5 avenues to getting players , national and internation draft, rule 5 draft, trading ,signing quality free agents and of course dumpster diving. to me if your not using all avenues conssistantly you are not doing your job... but hey maybe thats just me

 

 

As far as spending we have extra income , that if not used will be lost , it will disappear into a blackhole never to be seen again, so use it, even if you dont spend it all at least use most of it, as we sit now we have used about 33% of the 50-52% we are allowed to spend.

[bird]

Hrbek debuted at age 21, Puckett at age 24.

Sano and Buxton are each 20. BB just turned 20 last month and has played 173 games of professional baseball. Seems a bit premature to complain that Terry Ryan is promoting too slowly.

 

Amen. And for any of us to suggest that Ryan "or any other GM" is too slow to promote Sano and Buxton is to suggest that we know what we're talking about and those GM's don't. How laughable is that?

[bird]

The rush is I don't want to watch crappy ball players anymore. The rush is they are both "in AA" and could be up here. I get it. I should just wait for the future. The rush is that WS team was built by getting guys up here, and playing int he majors for a couple of years before peaking. This staff seems to want them to be peak the day they come up. It doesn't usually work that way.

 

You know with certainty Sano will be up this coming year? I don't know that.

 

Now, come on, mike. Did Hunter peak when he first came up? Arcia? Hicks? Cuddyer? Viola?To say that the Twins want players to peak when they first come up (and who doesn't, actually) is such utter nonsense. Yes, you should just accept the very clear fact that you have to (by definition) wait for the future. And it's a bit revisionist to claim that Hrbek and Puckett proved to be subjected to some sort of OJT program when they first came up. Like the other players, they peaked later but performed admirably if not imperfectly right away.

 

I have a nasty hunch, mike, that the dozens of staffers evaluating Sano and Buxton will have a terrific grasp on whether these players are ready for the bigs. You and I have absolutely zero clue.

[bird]

btw, I'm not saying this particual desire of mine is rational......I really am tired of watching a 95 loss team with no real future players on it (or few). I'm ready to watch a 95 loss team with future superstars on it. I get that not everyone feels the same way.

 

Everybody DOES feel the same way, actually. We just know that the Twins are going to do their very best to promote only when it is in the player's best interest as in aligned with a certain level of readiness. No sense whining about things, especially when so much of what's happening is extremely positive.

[Mike Sixel]

Amen. And for any of us to suggest that Ryan "or any other GM" is too slow to promote Sano and Buxton is to suggest that we know what we're talking about and those GM's don't. How laughable is that?

 

I'm good with your other posts, but this one sounds like an appeal to authority, basically saying don't bother commenting here. but maybe I am reading that wrong.

[twinsnorth49]

Just because someone is not employed by a major league baseball team, does not mean they don't know what they are talking about. There are plenty of knowledgeable, thoughtful and intelligent posters here. I think a lot of them know a great deal of what they are talking about.

 

I also don't think most of them believe the Twins FO doesn't know what they are talking about. I think some rightfully question certain decisions, is that inherently wrong?

[TheLeviathan]

Florida Marlins , Prince fielder...

 

Prince Fielder is your example? What, exactly, did he get the Tigers? No WS title and a player who looks like he's aging fast, just owed less money.

 

Your one example is dubious at best. And the Marlins? Is there an organization more universally despised? No one is going to want anything to do with them. Their titles were a lifetime ago.

 

Typically, if I'm going to go around banging the drum of "here is what works" - I have better than two crummy examples to base that on.

 

to me if your not using all avenues conssistantly

 

They did use all of them this year. Last year that criticism was very valid. This year? I think it requires a tinfoil hat to suggest they didn't.

 

As far as spending we have extra income , that if not used will be lost

 

So you only want to commit money this year? Are you suggesting one year deals? If you're not, the salary commitments you make now impact future years. Given that this team is still a few years off, I'd rather incrementally address the needs. That's a better strategy to maximize your money rather than spending just to spend.

 

If you want to argue it should've been Garza and not Pelfey, fine. But that's not what you're doing.

[TheLeviathan]

Or you sign a Garza to say a 3 year 51 million dollar contract and front load it 20, 20 and 11 million

now in the 2nd season we can trade him during the season or in that winter when he is owed only 11 million , there are ways to use the money thats avalible and not block prospects but actually add to your system,and still have bullets for the future

 

I'm sorry, but after reading this post I get the distinct feeling you are playing video game baseball general manager. Not reality baseball general manager. None of those things actually happen in real life.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Florida Marlins , Prince fielder...Yes you are correct about maybe a player gets hurt, or maybe he doesnt play as well as you hoped, but if you sit at home with your tinfoil hat on, afraid to make a mistake, you will miss out on many oppertunities.

 

It's not about being afraid to make a mistake, it's about taking on unnecessary risks that involve too many variables to predict an outcome with any kind of accuracy.

 

The Florida Marlins don't intentionally sign FAs to trade them, they have one of the worst owners in sports who liquidates his team whenever he fears his profits might dip below an acceptable level. Big difference there. The Marlins don't use FA trades to build their team, they fire sale players.

 

As for Fielder, that was a rare move that involved a ton of moving pieces. Like I said:

 

There's a reason why no team uses this strategy consistently. There's a big difference between "this never happens" versus "no one uses this strategy on a regular basis".

[bird]

I'm good with your other posts, but this one sounds like an appeal to authority, basically saying don't bother commenting here. but maybe I am reading that wrong.

 

Not an appeal to authority at all, but an appeal to expertise. If I decided to critique owners, coaches or players on here, I'd expect to be asked to back up my claims. I'd expect to get some pushback. You know yourself, mike, that you are usually negatively critical, and that's great. Sometimes you're right. In my view, you're often wrong or over the top in how harsh you are with the criticism. It's healthy when criticism, positive or negative, is the subject of some friendly debate. Our first debates, I recall, were about two years ago when I commented on the positive critiques on what was happening in the farm system and pushed you about your views, which were extremely negative. I guess I reply to your posts more often than others because, to be honest, I simply disagree with your take so often. No offense intended whatsoever.

[bird]

Just because someone is not employed by a major league baseball team, does not mean they don't know what they are talking about. There are plenty of knowledgeable, thoughtful and intelligent posters here. I think a lot of them know a great deal of what they are talking about.

 

Of course there are many intelligent, thoughtful, and knowledgable posters on here! Why else would we bother to come here? I respect mike wants wins, for example, because we share those attributes. But don't confuse things. Don't confuse decisions, for example, from knowledge.

 

What I will say is this: if you, me, or anyone else here thinks we have a better read on whether a player like Sano or Buxton are MLB ready than the dozens of evaluators employed by the Twins, we are utter fools. Rightfully questioning is not what I reacted to.

[Mike Sixel]

I do agree with the birdwatcher, we have waaaaaaaaaaaaaay less information, and experience, than the professionals. I think I just misunderstood his/her post.

 

One reasons I wanted to go to the event on saturday was to meet people in person, so they (and I) would be able get a better feel for each other as people, not as posters.....since I think context is very important to relationships....

[bird]

I'll be at the Diamond Awards tonight with all my besties like Jimmy P.

[johnnydakota]

So if we had shelled out 13 million a year more could we have had Garza?

[bird]

So if we had shelled out 13 million a year more could we have had Garza?

 

Who's your nsource, johnny?

[johnnydakota]

Who's your nsource, johnny?

 

Well its what the brewers paid...why not us?even if we front loaded it .

say 25 million in 2014 and 9 million per, for the last 3years

 

as for my source is none , but if the Brewers could sign him , why cant we?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Well its what the brewers paid...why not us?even if we front loaded it .

say 25 million in 2014 and 9 million per, for the last 3years

 

as for my source is none , but if the Brewers could sign him , why cant we?

 

While I believe that most players follow dollars and years, assuming that a single player will go anywhere based solely on money is a mistake. For all we know, Matt Garza has a Ron Gardenhire dartboard. He might not like the fact that the 35 has both a W and E version. Last time he went to Matt's Bar, there may have been a hair in his burger. He might think Minnie and Paul's handshaking relationship is a little too effeminate for his conservative viewpoint.

 

In short, we just don't know. A player's decision could literally be based on anything.

[twinsnorth49]

Last time he went to Matt's Bar, there may have been a hair in his burger.

 

Hold on, I thought that was the secret ingredient?

[rico7961]

The only "snapshot of the Twins payroll" that matters is the Pohlads have been bank-rolling millions and millions of $$$ since the Hennepin County Taxpayer funded a stadium for them. I "really liked" the complaint of "we need a new Stadium so we can spend money on the team". The Pohlads have been and will continue "laughing all the way to the bank" since the taxpayer built them a stadium. The Pohlads are shrewd businessmen, do you think they are going to spend money on a baseball team, when the income streams have already been established?

[johnnydakota]

While I believe that most players follow dollars and years, assuming that a single player will go anywhere based solely on money is a mistake. For all we know, Matt Garza has a Ron Gardenhire dartboard. He might not like the fact that the 35 has both a W and E version. Last time he went to Matt's Bar, there may have been a hair in his burger. He might think Minnie and Paul's handshaking relationship is a little too effeminate for his conservative viewpoint.

 

In short, we just don't know. A player's decision could literally be based on anything.

 

Yes and his early off season remarks about being more then willing to return to Minnesota , could simply have been a ruese to build more bidding , but I will take the player at his word, and believe that if the Twins were competitive or had given him a better deal , he would of happily returned to the Twins

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yes and his early off season remarks about being more then willing to return to Minnesota , could simply have been a ruese to build more bidding , but I will take the player at his word, and believe that if the Twins were competitive or had given him a better deal , he would of happily returned to the Twins

 

And that's possible. My point is that complaining about not acquiring players individually ignores that we just don't know what goes on behind closed doors. That's why I tend to look at offseasons as a big picture. I didn't care if the Twins picked up Nolasco, Hughes, Garza, Jimenez, or Santana. I don't know which ones were willing to come to Minnesota for what price. The Twins needed better pitchers and Ryan acquired two decent arms. I'm cool with that.

 

The same thinking applied to last offseason and Ryan failed to acquire good pitching. I didn't care who he got but they needed to be better than Pelfrey (Corriea actually turned out okay). Either way, Ryan failed to meet expectations last offseason and succeeded this offseason. The names don't matter that much to me. Sure, I prefer some players over others but since I'm not there for negotiations, I won't howl if things don't go exactly how I like.

[Thrylos]

the Hennepin County Taxpayer funded a stadium for them.

 

This is so darn inaccurate and I hear it all the time and I don't know if it is confusion or something else.

 

Here is how Target Field was funded: 1/3 was paid by the Twins and 2/3 are paid by bonds financed by a 0.15% increase in the sales tax at Hennepin county. People's local & property taxes did not increase. People buying taxable stuff (ie not clothes and food and necessities) in Hennepin county, including Twins' tickets and concessions are paying more, regardless whether they live in Minneapolis, St Paul, Duluth, or Timbuktu. And since most of the shopping centers are out of Hennepin county, most of the Hennepin country residents are not affected. The ones who pay more of the bill are the out of towners who have to use hotels and restaurants etc.

[twinsnorth49]

This is so darn inaccurate and I hear it all the time and I don't know if it is confusion or something else.

 

Here is how Target Field was funded: 1/3 was paid by the Twins and 2/3 are paid by bonds financed by a 0.15% increase in the sales tax at Hennepin county. People's local & property taxes did not increase. People buying taxable stuff (ie not clothes and food and necessities) in Hennepin county, including Twins' tickets and concessions are paying more, regardless whether they live in Minneapolis, St Paul, Duluth, or Timbuktu. And since most of the shopping centers are out of Hennepin county, most of the Hennepin country residents are not affected. The ones who pay more of the bill are the out of towners who have to use hotels and restaurants etc.

 

I'm outraged......:):)

[Mike Sixel]

This is so darn inaccurate and I hear it all the time and I don't know if it is confusion or something else.

 

Here is how Target Field was funded: 1/3 was paid by the Twins and 2/3 are paid by bonds financed by a 0.15% increase in the sales tax at Hennepin county. People's local & property taxes did not increase. People buying taxable stuff (ie not clothes and food and necessities) in Hennepin county, including Twins' tickets and concessions are paying more, regardless whether they live in Minneapolis, St Paul, Duluth, or Timbuktu. And since most of the shopping centers are out of Hennepin county, most of the Hennepin country residents are not affected. The ones who pay more of the bill are the out of towners who have to use hotels and restaurants etc.

 

 

That simply is not true, according to economic studies. MOST of the taxes are paid by county residents. The Twins and legislators want you to believe otherwise, but it simply is not true.

[Craig Arko]

That simply is not true, according to economic studies. MOST of the taxes are paid by county residents. The Twins and legislators want you to believe otherwise, but it simply is not true.

 

I live across the river in walking distance to the hole in the ground formerly known as the Metrodome. My property taxes have decreased steadily over the past five years or so. Go figure.

[Thrylos]

That simply is not true, according to economic studies. MOST of the taxes are paid by county residents. The Twins and legislators want you to believe otherwise, but it simply is not true.

 

Reference, please. Like they are asking for zip codes when they are ringing sales?

 

Not to be confused with public stadium financing through bonds backed by real estate tax raised funds, like other cases. Target Field is not financed that way...

[Craig Arko]

There's also this : http://www.theinterchange.net

[Guest USAFChief]

What happens if you run out of bullets? What happens if the Twins need a left fielder and shortstop in 2015 but only have $14m to spend? You're not going to fill all those holes, particularly if the holes are unexpected (say, if Arcia gets injured or falls on his face in 2014).

 

 

They might run out of bullets, that's a legitimate concern.

 

Conversely, saving your bullets doesn't guarantee there'll be anything to shoot at later. Needing a shortstop and left fielder in 2015 doesn't mean they will be there to sign. You might have saved your money for nothing, and end up without a SS and left fielder in both years.

 

Both approaches have risks.