Pedro Florimon

[cmathewson]

I agree. Florimon may not be the answer (short or long term), but he is a heck of a lot better answer at short than Butera was at catcher. Butera was brutal. And he was good defensively, but I always thought his defense was overrated, 'cause if you're offense is that bad and you still have a job, you must be some kind of wiz with the glove. I don't get the same sense from Florimon. He really is an elite defender.

[jokin]

I agree. Florimon may not be the answer (short or long term), but he is a heck of a lot better answer at short than Butera was at catcher. Butera was brutal. And he was good defensively, but I always thought his defense was overrated, 'cause if you're offense is that bad and you still have a job, you must be some kind of wiz with the glove. I don't get the same sense from Florimon. He really is an elite defender.

 

Until he resolves his underlying issues as documented in this thread, I would prefer " very rangy" and "flashy" to "elite" to more accurately characterize Florimon's defense.

[jokin]

I would tend to agree with this. I argued this same point last preseason. Florimon put up a .611 OPS with above average defense at SS. The league average for a #9 hitter is .633. I have no problem with Florimon as our SS and #9 hitter for the near future. I also expect he could approach the league average this season.

 

Our bigger problem than Florimon's dream of reaching .633 OPS is that our Leadoff Hitter OPS was .634!!!!

The Twins 2013 Leadoff slash of .225/.286/.347/.634 was plain awful and virtually identical to the average #9 spot that you cited for supposedly the worst batter in a lineup.......and especially disturbing when compared to the League Average at the Leadoff slot of .264/.324/.393/.716.

 

Until this reality is either addressed by the Twins in a player upgrade...... or someone currently in the system "steps up to the plate" and merely reaches league average #s in the #1 spot in the order, Florimon isn't going to get much help in raising his already-offensively-challenged bat in the 9 hole- based on the status quo remaining intact for 2014, the most we can realistically expect from Florimon is a marginal improvement, particularly from the right side of the plate.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Your either overrating Florimon's futility with the bat or underrating Butera's. 100 pts of OPS is a lot. With good defense at SS a .600 OPS is tolerable, a .500 OPS isn't, regardless of position.

 

No, I'm not. Florimon is awful with the bat.

 

Butera is in his own category. Historically awful, if you will.

 

I brought up Butera because a lot of this thread reads like Butera threads of the past. "If this player can stop being really bad at a particular skill and despite showing absolutely no inclination to do so in a 6+ year professional career, he could be an okay player."

 

You know as well as I do just how incredibly rare that kind of transformation is in a 27-28 year old player.

 

If Florimon turns into merely a bad hitter (say, a .630-.640 OPS) and cleans up his defensive mental gaffes, he's a serviceable stopgap player. But at this point, even that is unlikely.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I would tend to agree with this. I argued this same point last preseason. Florimon put up a .611 OPS with above average defense at SS. The league average for a #9 hitter is .633. I have no problem with Florimon as our SS and #9 hitter for the near future. I also expect he could approach the league average this season.

 

So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?

[oldguy10]

I believe it is a given that the Twins have too many # 9 hitters in their lineup, I'd like to see that notion disputed, please.

[TRex]

I believe it is a given that the Twins have too many # 9 hitters in their lineup, I'd like to see that notion disputed, please.

 

... and while your at it, please dispute the notion that we have too many #5 starters!

[Boom Boom]

So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?

 

Too many #9 hitters and too few #9 spots in the lineup.

[Gene Larkin Fan Club]

Count me in as a guy who's really hoping "P-Flo" catches on. With a nickname like that, he's sure to be a defensive "whiz". If I get to giggle like an idiot every time he takes the field, I'm OK with waiting another year before trying to make an upgrade at the position.

 

I also agree that we may need to look to poach a promising Milb SS from a team with an established young SS already in the majors. Glad I'm sitting in my chair and not TR's. Finding above average hitting and fielding shortstops has NEVER been an easy proposition.

[Major League Ready]

No, I'm not. Florimon is awful with the bat.

 

Butera is in his own category. Historically awful, if you will.

 

I brought up Butera because a lot of this thread reads like Butera threads of the past. "If this player can stop being really bad at a particular skill and despite showing absolutely no inclination to do so in a 6+ year professional career, he could be an okay player."

 

You know as well as I do just how incredibly rare that kind of transformation is in a 27-28 year old player.

 

 

I did not realize he was already 27. That does shine a different light on this topic. I was thinking in terms on ML ABs. He is only six months older than Dozier so let's hope he can have a year like Dozier did last year.

 

He very likely is not the answer long-term but neither is Drew, not by a longshot. So, I just don't see replacing him right now, given the vailable options, as worthy of much concern. Frankly, I would prefer to watch Florimon do his thing defensively for now as opposed to bringing in a player that likely provides very little improvement in wins & losses. I find more entertainment value in watching Florimon in the field even though he is often brutal at the plate. There is no way I would give up a draft pick for the meager competitive benefit provided by drew.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I did not realize he was already 27. That does shine a different light on this topic. I was thinking in terms on ML ABs. He is only six months older than Dozier so let's hope he can have a year like Dozier did last year.

 

He very likely is not the answer long-term but neither is Drew, not by a longshot. So, I just don't see replacing him right now, given the vailable options, as worthy of much concern. Frankly, I would prefer to watch Florimon do his thing defensively for now as opposed to bringing in a player that likely has very little improvement in wins & losses, not to mention there is no way I would give up a draft pick for the meager benefit provided by drew.

 

I have issues comparing Florimon and Dozier because Dozier showed flashes of being a good hitter in the minors. It may have only been one season but he OPSed a full 120 points higher than any season Florimon posted.

 

I can see the argument that Florimon is "good enough" to avoid picking up Drew but at some point, don't you have to make improvements when and where you can? Drew is definitely a win improvement over Florimon, though I'm not sold that the Twins won't have a better SS option next offseason, be it through trade or free agency.

 

My only issue is with people predicting some kind of breakout for Florimon... At this point, he's almost certainly going to continue being the guy he is today, or at least some close approximation of that player.

[Willihammer]

The thing with comp picks - Drew's already declined one QO, because he's good. He might regress badly in the next 2-3 years, that's FA for you. He might also remain good enough to decline a QO entering his age 33 or 34 season. In which case the Twins could not only get the pick back, but even drat higher.

 

Or we could wait till next offseason, face the same dilemma all over again, and have to surrender the 15th pick instead of the 35th pick to get a FA SS.

[Willihammer]

Here's the organizational depthchart at SS, sorted by OPS.

[TABLE=width: 500]

[TABLE=width: 454]

Player

Pos

Age

level

G

OPS

Montesino Ariel#

SS

[TD=align: right]17

ROK

[TD=align: right]23[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.812[/TD]

Escobar Eduardo#

SS

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

AAAMAJ

[TD=align: right]109[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.755[/TD]

Bernier Doug

SS

[TD=align: right]33[/TD]

AAAMAJ

[TD=align: right]125[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.754[/TD]

Goodrum Niko#

SS

[TD=align: right]21[/TD]

L-A

[TD=align: right]103[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.732[/TD]

Santana Danny#

SS

[TD=align: right]22[/TD]

AA

[TD=align: right]131[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.719[/TD]

Ramirez Joel#

SS

[TD=align: right]19[/TD]

ROK

[TD=align: right]53[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.709[/TD]

Mejia Aderlin#

SS

[TD=align: right]21[/TD]

H-A

[TD=align: right]75[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.708[/TD]

Michael Levi#

SS

[TD=align: right]22[/TD]

H-A

[TD=align: right]94[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.67[/TD]

Walker Ryan*

SS

[TD=align: right]21[/TD]

ROKL-A

[TD=align: right]48[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.651[/TD]

Florimon Pedro#

SS

[TD=align: right]26[/TD]

MAJ

[TD=align: right]134[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.611[/TD]

Vielma Engelb#

SS

[TD=align: right]19[/TD]

ROK

[TD=align: right]48[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.571[/TD]

Pettersen Adam

SS

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

H-AAA

[TD=align: right]86[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.556[/TD]

Avila Carlos

SS

[TD=align: right]23[/TD]

ROK

[TD=align: right]24[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.533[/TD]

Molina Nelson*

SS

[TD=align: right]18[/TD]

ROK

[TD=align: right]36[/TD]

[TD=align: right]0.297[/TD]

[/TABLE]

[/TD]

[/TD]

[TD]

[/TABLE]

[Teddy]

Yes, Florimon has his warts, but there's a comparison to what we were all saying about Dozier last year. This will really be Florimon's second season as a regular, and Dozier flourished his second time around. Let's hope that becoming a little more comfortable and working on his deficiencies in the offseason will allow him to make a jump to palatable with the bat and consistent with his defense.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Yes, Florimon has his warts, but there's a comparison to what we were all saying about Dozier last year. This will really be Florimon's second season as a regular, and Dozier flourished his second time around. Let's hope that becoming a little more comfortable and working on his deficiencies in the offseason will allow him to make a jump to palatable with the bat and consistent with his defense.

 

Again, Dozier showed an ability to hit in the minors. Florimon has never shown a similar ability at any level over a full season.

[cmathewson]

Levi Michael = sad face.

 

On Florimon, I agree with Brock that he is not likely to get better. He is probably due for regression offensively. Still, I disagree that he can be a serviceable stop gap. You have to take it in context. Shortstops are the rarest commodities. So a guy can hit .600 and be serviceable if he plays above average defense. That is what I expect from him, and I'm OK with it as long as they assemble a team around him that can win.

 

If they sign Drew, I'm sure Florimon has some trade value, just as Butera had surprising trade value given his level of competence. Catchers aren't quite as rare as shortstops, but they're close.

[Physics Guy]

So you're telling me that the Twins' biggest problem is that they have too many #9 hitters?

 

No, I don't think I said that at all. I said that Florimon is not a serious problem as a #9. With that being said, I don't disagree that the Twins are seriously lacking some hitters for the top half of the order. Without looking it up, Mauer was most likely the only batter who was above league average in OPS for his spot in the batting order (Dozier might be close).

[Brock Beauchamp]

No, I don't think I said that at all. I said that Florimon is not a serious problem as a #9. With that being said, I don't disagree that the Twins are seriously lacking some hitters for the top half of the order. Without looking it up, Mauer was most likely the only batter who was above league average in OPS for his spot in the batting order (Dozier might be close).

 

And my point is that Florimon is a problem when the team also has 3-4 other guys with an OPS of a typical 7-8-9 hitter.

 

At some point, this team needs to start getting better at various positions around the diamond.

[Major League Ready]

It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1^st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.

[cmathewson]

It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1^st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.

 

Well said. It is a lot easier and less expensive to upgrade the offense at other positions. I expect that to happen at positions 3, 5, 7 and 9 and 10. If they can be status quo at 6 and 8 while not losing too much at 2, a lot of the angst about the offense will go away. This is essentially the same offense that was in the top 5 in the league in 2012 (with worse offense at SS than in 2013). Last year was a larger than expected regression. This year should pendulum back, not to 2012 levels, but above average, imho. The number nine hitter will not make that big of a difference in the pendulum swing one way or another.

[Guest USAFChief]

I look at it just the opposite...is it going to be easier (or cheaper) to upgrade the middle of the Twins order or the bottom?

 

Replacing Florimon's OPS with something 100 points higher seems easier to me than finding that improvement elsewhere.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I look at it just the opposite...is it going to be easier (or cheaper) to upgrade the middle of the Twins order or the bottom?

 

Replacing Florimon's OPS with something 100 points higher seems easier to me than finding that improvement elsewhere.

 

Not to mention that the Twins have plus prospects at nearly every position in the high minors... Except for Florimon's position.

 

To me, it makes a lot more sense to gamble with free agency at a position where you have no minor league options for improvement and a pretty bad player on the MLB roster.

[bird]

It is hard to argue that Florimon is part of a problem we have of several players posting an OPS of a #9 hitter. However another way to look at this problem is that Florimon's position is probably the hardest position to improve offensively. I don't think it makes sense to force a solutiuon right now. Not just because he is good defensively but because it is far easier to make offensive improvement within the other positions where we have players producing a low OPS. Last year we produced a very modest OPS at 1^st base, DH, and the outfield positions which are typical positions with high OPS players. It makes more sense to prioritize offensive improvements elsewhere. This is not to say we should ignore SS but there is probably some wisdom in waiting until a better solution presents itself.

 

This makes sense. Jason Parks of BP claims that six of the top ten prospects are shortstops. The Twins may end up being the beneficiaries of a little trickle-down economics if Goodrum, Santana, and Polanco don't pan out at the position in the next year or so.

[cmathewson]

Not to mention that the Twins have plus prospects at nearly every position in the high minors... Except for Florimon's position.

 

To me, it makes a lot more sense to gamble with free agency at a position where you have no minor league options for improvement and a pretty bad player on the MLB roster.

 

OK. I would not be averse to signing Drew. I would be excited. I wouldn't even mind giving up the second round pick, because that will be offset by their return on the Florimon trade. But I have heard rumors of Boras playing the Kyle Lohse card. So I'm not optimistic that Ryan can get it done. All I'm saying is, if he doesn't get it done, I don't think it will hurt that bad.

[Brock Beauchamp]

OK. I would not be averse to signing Drew. I would be excited. I wouldn't even mind giving up the second round pick, because that will be offset by their return on the Florimon trade. But I have heard rumors of Boras playing the Kyle Lohse card. So I'm not optimistic that Ryan can get it done. All I'm saying is, if he doesn't get it done, I don't think it will hurt that bad.

 

That's fair. I'm not really in love with Drew either so I won't be upset if they don't get him.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Hey all, I just want to say that I find the discussion regarding a shortstop's offensive and defensive value fascinating. The epitome of all field/no hit from the SS is Mark Belanger, one of my boyhood idols. There's a wonderful biography of Belanger on the SABR site: http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/bbcae277 Author, Frank Vaccaro

 

A few great snippets, below from Mr. Vaccaro, who writes almost as well as Mr. Belanger flashed his glove. Mark "The Blade" Belanger died of complications with lung disease, on Oct. 6, 1998. He was 54 years old.

 

"He never seemed to actually catch a ball; rather he redirected them into his throwing hand. Sports Illustrated once wrote: 'Belanger would glide effortlessly after a grounder and welcome it into loving arms; scooping the ball up with a single easy motion, and bringing it to his chest for a moment’s caress before making his throw.'"

 

"In 18 years, he never dove for a ball, insisting that an all-out sprint was faster and maintained the mechanics of the play. And he was supremely confident: He never wore a protective cup."

 

"Belanger went to spring training with the Orioles in 1963. Ron Hansen, whom the Orioles had just traded to the Chicago White Sox, approached the rookie with this advice: “Learn to rock forward as the pitcher delivers the ball instead of starting from zero.”3 Belanger took it to heart. Over the years he not only leaned forward but anticipated left or right based on batter tendencies and pitch location. Sometimes Belanger would break right and then correct himself and break left – all before the crack of the bat on the ball."

 

"Belanger played for Earl Weaver at three levels (of minor league ball) along the way, and Weaver told him, 'You're my shortstop if you hit .0001.'"

 

"(H)e hit just .208 in his first year as a starting player.The next spring bullpen coach Charlie Lau approached Belanger to offer batting tips. Lau kept track of every pitch Belanger saw that year, sending him up to bat with instructions to take and swing on specific counts, and encouraging him to expect certain pitches in certain spots based on previous batter-pitcher matchups. Belanger responded with his best batting season ever, won his first of eight Gold Gloves, and earned the nickname Blade for his silhouette as Baltimore rolled to a team record 109 wins. He hit for a .287 average with 50 RBIs."

 

We could only hope for that sort of improvement from P-Flo... (cracks me up almost as much as Pujols...)

 

"The tradeoff between Belanger’s lousy offense and great defense was usually one Weaver was willing to make, but he was not above trying to gain an edge. In September of 1975, Weaver often used Royle Stillman as the shortstop high in the starting lineup in road games, allowing rookie Stillman to bat in the first inning and Belanger to replace him in the bottom of the first. Stillman was an outfielder, and never played an inning of shortstop in his career, despite his six “starts” there in 1975. He hit 3-for-6 in these games.

Belanger holds the American League career record for being pinch-hit for – 333 times. And if he wasn’t being pinch-hit for, he was sacrificing; his league-leading 23 sacrifices in 1975 were an Oriole record at least through 2009. In 1976, Belanger carried a .300 average into June and earned over a million votes in the All-Star balloting, making the team as a backup. When Peter Gammons wrote, 'Belanger could be the first 140 lb. weakling to win the MVP award,'18 Belanger sought him out at Fenway Park and confronted him: 'I’m 170 pounds, and I’m not a weakling.'"

 

Sorry for the extended quotes. I hope they are accepted in good form, and attributed properly. Now, back to Florimon. Great discussion guys.

[Willihammer]

"The tradeoff between Belanger’s lousy offense and great defense was usually one Weaver was willing to make' date=' but he was not above trying to gain an edge. In September of 1975, Weaver often used Royle Stillman as the shortstop high in the starting lineup in road games, allowing rookie Stillman to bat in the first inning and Belanger to replace him in the bottom of the first. Stillman was an outfielder, and never played an inning of shortstop in his career, despite his six “starts” there in 1975. He hit 3-for-6 in these games.[/quote']

 

I wish Weaver'd kept on with this. This seems like a smart idea.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I wish Weaver'd kept on with this. This seems like a smart idea.

 

That's the first I've ever heard of that trick. It's a fantastic idea. I'd love to see someone else give it a shot.

[cmathewson]

I'm pretty sure the Twins don't have the bats that the 70s Orioles had. Also, the Twins don't have a rotation with Seaver, Cuellar, et al. Also, those were the days when you would win most of the games in which you scored four runs or more, because offense in the 70s was pretty anemic. In this day and age, it is tough to beat the best teams with holes in your line-up. It can be done (the Twins of the '00s showed us how). But they defied the odds.

[Jim H]

I'm pretty sure the Twins don't have the bats that the 70s Orioles had. Also, the Twins don't have a rotation with Seaver, Cuellar, et al. Also, those were the days when you would win most of the games in which you scored four runs or more, because offense in the 70s was pretty anemic. In this day and age, it is tough to beat the best teams with holes in your line-up. It can be done (the Twins of the '00s showed us how). But they defied the odds.

 

A couple of things, Seaver never pitched for the Orioles. The Orioles actually had a lot holes in their typical lineups. Blair, Dempsey and Belanger were all well below average offensive players for their positions. Having Palmer and 3 other 20 game winners as your 4 starting pitchers covered up a lot of hitting weaknesses. Also the middle of the Orioles lineup was among the league best.

 

Part of the reason Weaver liked the 3 run home run was because they didn't have a lineup of high average guys. The Twins of that era had a much better overall lineup most years, they just never had comparable pitching or defense.

 

I like the story about essentially using a pinch hitter to start the game for Belanger in road games. It kind of has to be a September thing though. You probably couldn't afford to use up a quality pinch hitter during the regular season with a 25 man roster. Also I sort of remember the Twins doing something like this as well. Maybe under Gene Mauch?