Article: Twins Trade Doumit to Braves

[Shane Wahl]

During the past season when I looked for trade partners for players like Morneau, Willingham, Doumit, and Plouffe, Gilmartin was exactly the kind of guy I thought the Twins could get. A fringe top 20 prospect in the Twins organization. Certainly a worthwhile find, especially at age 23.5.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Kubel on a minor league deal doesn't make another move for a DH next to impossible.

I would guess that it would be harder to attract a potential DH here now, if you are talking free agency.

 

We could make a trade for one, but with Kubel and Willingham already in the fold, plus the Twins general preference of rotating players through the DH spot, it seems unlikely.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I thought Doumit didn't want to catch anymore which is why would the Braves want him since he won't DH in the NL?

I think that report was erroneous. The source was actually just a poster who said he heard Howard Sinker mention it on the radio. (Maybe Sinker was speculating, or the listener misheard a reference to Mauer as a reference to Doumit.)

 

In fact, Parker confirmed just the opposite with Doumit's agent. He still wants to catch.

[jokin]

I think that report was erroneous. The source was actually just a poster who said he heard Howard Sinker mention it on the radio. (Maybe Sinker was speculating, or the listener misheard a reference to Mauer as a reference to Doumit.)

 

In fact, Parker confirmed just the opposite with Doumit's agent. He still wants to catch.

 

 

Yup. It drives me to distraction that myths like this get traction and go uncorrected. Howard also made some mention in his column that Doumit was done catching- but only for the rest of 2013.

 

Does anyone actually think that the NL Atlanta Braves, desperate for catching depth, would trade for Doumit while unsure of his ability or willingness to play the position?

[Shane Wahl]

Doumit not catching would basically limit him to the AL. No way he would want to resign himself to that.

[ashbury]

Speaking of Levi Michael... What is he doing for the organization? I never liked that draft pick anyways.

 

There's a thread on him in the Adopt-a-Prospect forum section - better if we discuss him there:

 

http://twinsdaily.com/showthread.php/1011-Levi-Michael-Adopt-A-Prospect-Project

[Otto von Ballpark]

Or better yet, start a thread on him in the Adopt-a-Mascot forum.

 

Also, start the Adopt-a-Mascot forum.

[biggentleben]

This move is great, I like it. Here is the BP write-upon Gilmartin last year, when he was ranked #6 by Jason Parks I. The Braves' system:

 

6. Sean Gilmartin

Position: LHP

DOB: 05/08/1990

Height/Weight: 6’2’’ 190 lbs.

Bats/Throws: L/L

Drafted/Acquired: 1st round, 2011 draft, Florida State University (Tallahassee, FL)

2012 Stats: 3.54 ERA (119.1 IP, 111 H, 86 K, 26 BB) at Double-A Mississippi; 4.78 ERA (37.2 IP, 41 H, 25 K, 13 BB) at Triple-A Gwinnett

The Tools: 5 FB; 5 SL; 5+ CH

 

 

What Happened in 2012: True to form, Gilmartin made 27 starts, logged 157 innings, and forced weak contact at two levels in the upper minors.

 

 

Strengths: Pitchability; pedestrian fastball velocity, but can move pitch around and add/subtract; above average changeup is effective; keeps righties off fastball; has good sink and arm-side fade; slider flashes above average, works as average offering; good two-plane slice; above average command profile; makes it work.

 

 

Weaknesses: Lacks true plus pitch; relies on sequence and location; pitches to weak contact; not big bat misser; curveball is get-me-over/change-the-sight-line pitch; will pitch backwards off changeup.

 

 

Overall Future Potential: 5; no. 4 starter

 

 

Explanation of Risk: Low risk; mature arsenal; pitchability; already achieved Triple-A level.

 

 

Fantasy Future: Back-end innings chewer; league average at best; steady.

 

 

The Year Ahead: A crowded rotation could keep Gilmartin in Triple-A for a healthy chunk of the 2013 season, but an opening is only an injury away, and the 22-year-old southpaw has the makeup and arsenal to step up to the highest level and hold his own. The stuff is average to solid average, but he makes it work by moving the ball around and changing speeds, keeping hitters from sitting on his upper-80s/low 90s fastball. It’s not a sexy profile, but dependable innings eaters have a lot of value, and Gilmartin looks like a safe bet to live up to that prophecy.

 

The issue is that this was before his 2013 where he was hurt and really lost a lot of touch and feel for his pitches as well as velocity (and he didn't have a lot of velo to lose to start again). His review will be a lot different this year. Long reliever if he even makes the majors is his projection at this point.

[jokin]

I would guess that it would be harder to attract a potential DH here now, if you are talking free agency.

 

We could make a trade for one, but with Kubel and Willingham already in the fold, plus the Twins general preference of rotating players through the DH spot, it seems unlikely.

 

All I was saying is that the Twins would be foolish to put all of their LH DH eggs in one Kubel basket, a basket from which the bottom alarmingly fell out from a career in 2013 in AZ.

 

If Kubel remains unimpressive in ST, the Twins need better options than just Parmelee and Hermann as their LH DH options ( I'm assuming that if Arcia is with the team, they want him playing in the OF full-time).

 

A trade seems far easier to contemplate, but can Terry pull off any kind of deal for Mitch Moreland, Adam Lind or even Mike Carp? They all could be moved from their respective teams at the right price.

 

In FA, Chavez was about the last LH FA worth considering. Reynolds L/R split isn't all that different enough to automatically preclude him from consideration, plus he could play in the corner infield without embarrassing himself. The salary projections are anywhere between $3M and $5M- the Twins are said to be interested, but are up against the Yankees, who appear to be taking no prisoners in revamping their roster.

[howieramone1406390264]

It's called prospect evaluation. Gilmartin is not a very good prospect. Even in his good season he didn't strike out many batters and his upside is the Correia, Blackburn or Diamond type of pitcher. He might make the majors and he might be fringy capable starter or reliever for awhile but it's more likely that he doesn't make contribute in the majors.

 

And that's the point. This trade isn't about the prospect return. It's about moving Doumit in a trade (and the salary) instead of unceremoniously DFA'ing him (that wasn't going to happen).

 

I had no idea your personal prospect evaluation trumps our favorite team's scouting department. The trade was about continuing to address our organization's need for left handed starting pitching. Who better to seek out than a prospect you previously considered drafting in the first round?

[johnnydakota]

I had no idea your personal prospect evaluation trumps our favorite team's scouting department. The trade was about continuing to address our organization's need for left handed starting pitching. Who better to seek out than a prospect you previously considered drafting in the first round?

 

He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter

[beckmt]

Do not think Kubel is guaranteed a roster spot. Just think he is one of the options, my best guess is that his main roster competition is Parmelee, and if Kubel makes it Parmelee is gone. This was a good trade as it freed a roster spot from a player who was not in the Twins plans.

[OldManWinter]

I think the people here are too quick to complain about personnel moves when there is a big makeover happening. I think it is more important to see how all the parts fit together than if you like or dislike all of the invididual parts.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I had no idea your personal prospect evaluation trumps our favorite team's scouting department. The trade was about continuing to address our organization's need for left handed starting pitching. Who better to seek out than a prospect you previously considered drafting in the first round?

 

Howie,

 

Most people on this board are pretty happy about the trade. I think I can safely say that most of us who are happy about it would not argue that Gilmartin is a really good prospect. I'm not even sure that the Twins would say that. The reality is that Doumit was increasingly the odd man out, had little value, and was probably going to be given away. The Twins got more value for him than anyone thought they could get... that is good. And in my opinion, had Doumit bounced back, the Twins wouldn't have done better at the deadline.

 

That said, I'm not sure how constructive it is to argue about whether or not Kab (or anyone else's) personal opinion trumps that of the Twins. I don't think Kab has said anywhere that it does. I do, however, think that this is an internet site where everyone is entitled to an opinion as long as they are respectful, and Kab does that very well. Under those guidelines, people are well within their rights to have differing opinions. Arguing that someone's opionion doesn't matter because they aren't a member of the Twins isn't a good place to go given that this board has only 1 confirmed member of the Twins front office posting here and this forum is open to the public.

[twinsnorth49]

He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter

 

But he's only 23 and couldn't you also say Doumit is a carbon copy of at least a couple of other alleged right fielders we have? Except he's the overpaid one

[Brock Beauchamp]

But he's only 23 and couldn't you also say Doumit is a carbon copy of at least a couple of other alleged right fielders we have? Except he's the overpaid one

 

"Alleged right fielders".

 

What an apt description of the Twins current roster.

[jokin]

But he's only 23 and couldn't you also say Doumit is a carbon copy of at least a couple of other alleged right fielders we have? Except he's the overpaid one

 

Only 23? So was Pedro Hernandez.

 

But your point on Doumit is valid, it's time for even more moves like this, let's clear the clutter and gain the clarity on who we have....and who we should still consider acquiring.

[goulik]

It's called prospect evaluation. Gilmartin is not a very good prospect. Even in his good season he didn't strike out many batters and his upside is the Correia, Blackburn or Diamond type of pitcher. He might make the majors and he might be fringy capable starter or reliever for awhile but it's more likely that he doesn't make contribute in the majors.

 

And that's the point. This trade isn't about the prospect return. It's about moving Doumit in a trade (and the salary) instead of unceremoniously DFA'ing him (that wasn't going to happen).

My only concern with your evaluation is lumping Correia in with Blackburn and Diamond. We know Correia is better than Blackburn and I would take a young Correia type pitcher who could pitch 200 innings for the next 6 years on the cheap for Doumit. Blackburn, no! Diamond is still partially a question mark but leaning more Blackburnish ATM... I'm rooting for a Correia type from this guy though. Not great but that's a serviceable return.

[kab21]

I had no idea your personal prospect evaluation trumps our favorite team's scouting department. The trade was about continuing to address our organization's need for left handed starting pitching. Who better to seek out than a prospect you previously considered drafting in the first round?

 

There is absolutely nothing about this trade that indicates the scouting department thinks Gilmartin is a good prospect. I'm sure they will publicly say that he is someone that they have targeted for a long time but it doesn't change his mediocre prospect status. I would consider him a borderline top 25 prospect. Worth having but nothing to get excited about or even likely to be a MLB contributor.

[Kwak]

Thread title: Twins Trade Doumit to Atlanta

 

Spot on for a title. My point is: was the trade made to specifically acquire Gilmartin, or to move Doumit, or was it initiated by Atlanta because they wanted Doumit? Yes, there are two parties to this trade and either could have been the initiator. My take: Atlanta wanted Doumit, initiated the discussion, and then agreed to send Gilmartin. Maybe Ryan really is sold on yet another soft-tossing LHP (who has had recent injury) or maybe he is relieved to be rid of Doumit, his contract, and the roster spot--he didn't say. As far as I'm concerned the real value to the Twins is moving Doumit. The lottery ticket named Gilmartin is simply a bonus--but the Twins must realize that Gilmartin is nothing more than that as opposed to a "prospect". Sadly, the word "prospect" is tossed-around so loosely that its' meaning has been obfuscated.

[notoriousgod71]

He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter

 

Which by definition should mean "Not solid whatsoever".

[kab21]

My only concern with your evaluation is lumping Correia in with Blackburn and Diamond. We know Correia is better than Blackburn and I would take a young Correia type pitcher who could pitch 200 innings for the next 6 years on the cheap for Doumit. Blackburn, no! Diamond is still partially a question mark but leaning more Blackburnish ATM... I'm rooting for a Correia type from this guy though. Not great but that's a serviceable return.

 

You overrate Correia. he's a 4.50 career ERA pitcher (almost always in NL pitcher friendly parks) that has pitched 198 innings once. Blackburn was actually better during his 2 good seasons and then he fell apart. That's what happens to these fringy MLB'ers.

[notoriousgod71]

My only concern with your evaluation is lumping Correia in with Blackburn and Diamond. We know Correia is better than Blackburn and I would take a young Correia type pitcher who could pitch 200 innings for the next 6 years on the cheap for Doumit. Blackburn, no! Diamond is still partially a question mark but leaning more Blackburnish ATM... I'm rooting for a Correia type from this guy though. Not great but that's a serviceable return.

 

Aces barely pitch 200 innings in a season now. Correia hasn't done it (came close in 2009). He may very well be better than Blackburn, but not by much. I think it's very fair to lump him in with Blackburn and Diamond.

[Dman]

What exactly did we think could get for Doumit, an ace, a high upside teenager? Just the other day people were ready to just DFA him. The return wasn't great because his value wasn't that great.

 

I don't know what TR is doing though because he has a lot of soft tossers and no place to use them to try and gain value for them. Can we trade Diamond, Albers, Worely for anything or do they get waived or DFA'd? If we lose the other guys for nothing then getting Gilmartin doesn't make a lot of sense other than he is younger and has the flexibility of options. We have Pat Dean and several other soft tossers on the way so not sure we needed another one. We just gave up a 24 year old pitcher (Hendricks) for nothing so not sure we gain prospect wise here.

 

This trade really seems more about staying even and clearing roster space. We don;t need another pitcher with Gilmartins skill set and neither do most teams. The Braves got rid of something they didn't want and don't need and so did the Twins. It was a good match. Nothing more too it than that.

[stringer bell]

 

We don;t need another pitcher with Gilmartins skill set and neither do most teams. The Braves got rid of something they didn't want and don't need and so did the Twins. It was a good match. Nothing more too it than that.

The Twins DO need somebody with Gilmartin's skill set to be successful. From my point of view, the Twins added another candidate to the ranks of "lefthanded not overpowering". None of those guys is established as a major league starter. Now, between Diamond, Albers, Johnson, and Darnell they have added another guy with a chance. Further, he's not on the 40-man and will have options, so his "window" for establishing himself is open for a while. It wouldn't stun me at all to see Gilmartin get between 50 and 100 starts for the Twins. As a point of reference, here are four Twins starters of recent vintage and their number of starts for the Twins: Scott Baker (162), Francisco Liriano (130), Kevin Slowey (90), and Boof Bonser (60).

[cmathewson]

He is a carbon copy the 3 other lefties we already have, a solid #6 starter

 

I wouldn't say that. He was a top 5 prospect in the Braves system prior to pitching through some arm problems last year. None of the other lefties you are apparently referring to have ever been much in the way of prospect rankings.

 

What does Gilmartin have that they don't have? When healthy, he has swing-and-miss stuff. His fastball touches 93 and sits in the low 90s, which makes his above-average change and slider effective. He doesn't need to be as fine as the others, but he is capable of it.

 

Diamond, Darnell and Albers sit in the high 80s, which makes their average secondary pitches hitable when they are not located in just the right spots.

 

I don't think Gilmartin will be better than a #4 starter. But his upside is 3/4. In my book, he is the best lefty starter in the Twins system who pitched above A ball last year. I would rank Thorpe and Gonsalves ahead of him. He's a notch above Sulbaran in my book, being older, more advanced and possessing a more complete arsenal. I would put him at 14 in the Twins system, with Thorpe ranked 8th, Gonsalves ranked 10th and Sulbaran 19th.

[clutterheart]

Speaking of Levi Michael... What is he doing for the organization? I never liked that draft pick anyways.

 

Playing serviceable D at High A but now blocking prospects like Polanco. I have to think he gets moved up to AA this year just because of the investment. Not because he deserves it.

[DuluthFan]

Here's a thought.

What happens if Diamond/Deduno/Worley don't pitch well enough to make the 25 man roster as a starter? Long relief? If they can't pitch well enough to earn a rotation spot, how likely are they to be able to take the long relief spot from Swarzak? At this point he seems to have the advantage over them.

 

So what happens to them? They are out of options. Worse case scenario is the Twins lose them all when they have to be DFA'd and waived.

 

That is where Gilmartin's value comes in. He can be stashed at Rochester with all of the other pitchers that have options remaining. It appears this trade is looking to the probable loss of three high level pitchers from the organization. It is highly unlikely all three make the team. Gilmartin is the back up plan.

[B Richard]

"Alleged right fielders".

 

What an apt description of the Twins current roster.

 

 

I nearly split a gut laughing at this

[cmathewson]

I nearly split a gut laughing at this

 

Come now. Arcia is 21 years old. He's the youngest prospect to come up and perform at the major league level since Mauer. I think we can cut him a little slack on his first partial year in the majors.