Article: Twins Trade Doumit to Braves

[darin617]

Fantastic deal and it makes up for signing Pelfrey!! I'm very glad this happened and Terry Ryan fleeced the Braves by not only getting a somewhat decent player, but unloading Doumit's overpaid contract.

 

Can we please be more positive on the job TR has done so far. Mike Pelfrey will be a nice piece to the rotation.

[Riverbrian]

The way I saw it... If the Twins sign a Catcher... With the addition of Kubel... It will come down to Doumit or Parmelee on the roster.

 

Nothing against Doumit but I choose Parmelee and apparently Doumit has some trade value because we just picked up a formally decent ranked prospect left hander for him.

 

I'm fine with the deal and I wish Good Luck to Ryan Doumit. Thanks for your two years with my club.

 

I think the Twins will be signing a Vet Catcher for sure now. Not so much to work with Pinto or Herrmann and their catching development... But... To work with the pitchers... A guy to go over charts and film and help with the game planning for our new arms.

 

Kurt Suzuki??? I think so.

[TheLeviathan]

The best part of this deal is we get Parmelee in the OF instead of Hammer or Arcia and we never have to endure the pain of Doumit in the outfield.

[Thrylos]

Wonder how long Duensing will be around now. Seem to have a lot of young/cheap/similar lefties who could fill his LOOGY spot pretty easily. (Don't kid yourselves, that's all Duensing is, even if he's not necessarily used that way)

 

Duensing's fastball sits around 92-93 and jumps out to 95. Saw him hit 97 at Hammond Stadium last ST, but that is Hammond Stadium. His K% was 21% last season. He has a plus slider and 2 more secondary pitches (curve and change). The Twins do not have any lefty in the system that fits this profile today and maybe have a couple (Thorpe, Gonsalves who are 3 seasons or so away) in the future.

 

So not similar lefties (other than Perkins). Diamond who is out of options traditionally does awfully against LHBs (because his best secondary pitch is a curve that he runs inside to lefties and is very hittable) Thielbar (and his .175 BABIP), Albers, Johnson are replacement level.

[johnnydakota]

Whe Ryan signed Ricky , I was yes nice job

Then he signed Hughes, and I thought ok young with upside good splits

then came Mike , and its like um Terry been there done that ...

Now we trade an asset (yes asset even if its not a big asset) for a sore armed 88mph fastball throwing lefty, and you know what ....Curly you just never learn, do ya?

Once again our payroll is lower then the starting payroll of 2013

Yes the off season isint over , yes he might sign Reynolds or Suzuki,

but to me they are not much if any thing to brag about

[diehardtwinsfan]

I have to echo something someone else said: I have to think the trading isn't done. I fully expect a member of the pen to find a new home yet this offseason.... Perhaps two.

 

Another thing that hasn't been said, but I kind of wonder about... Was this trade b/c Gardy plays Doumit too much? Doumit as a backup catcher and occasional DH wasn't a bad deal assuming he hits like he did in 2012, but he was dreadful in 2013 and Gardy kept trotting him out there at the expense of younger players who needed the at bats.

 

This trade is really a win, and from the looks of it for both teams. Doumit wasn't going to get much now, and even if he rebounds this season, he wasn't going to haul in a top 100 guy or anything like that. He was taking up roster space and largely redundant in this org. ATL had a need for what Doumit could provide and gave up a largely redundant piece on their end with the upside of a 3/4 type guy. I can't complain. I just can't. I don't get the angst here from a few posters. Does anyone honestly believe Doumit could have fetched better?

[johnnydakota]

I have to echo something someone else said: I have to think the trading isn't done. I fully expect a member of the pen to find a new home yet this offseason.... Perhaps two.

 

Another thing that hasn't been said, but I kind of wonder about... Was this trade b/c Gardy plays Doumit too much? Doumit as a backup catcher and occasional DH wasn't a bad deal assuming he hits like he did in 2012, but he was dreadful in 2013 and Gardy kept trotting him out there at the expense of younger players who needed the at bats.

 

This trade is really a win, and from the looks of it for both teams. Doumit wasn't going to get much now, and even if he rebounds this season, he wasn't going to haul in a top 100 guy or anything like that. He was taking up roster space and largely redundant in this org. ATL had a need for what Doumit could provide and gave up a largely redundant piece on their end with the upside of a 3/4 type guy. I can't complain. I just can't. I don't get the angst here from a few posters. Does anyone honestly believe Doumit could have fetched better?

 

Alone ,No , but he could have ben packaged with a couple of players who wont be a Twin come opening day along with a prospect or 2 who wont be revelent to the teams success in the future , and yes we could have gotten a prospect or 2 with higher upside

[big dog]

My take is that Doumit's only value is his hitting. We effectively just traded Doumit for Kubel, and got Gilmartin thrown in without having to use a roster spot for him. We also apparently needed a backup catcher anyway, so keeping Doumit wouldn't have solved that problem. I like the move.

[Halsey Hall]

The best part of this deal is we get Parmelee in the OF instead of Hammer or Arcia and we never have to endure the pain of Doumit in the outfield.

 

Both Hammer and Arcia can't dh at the same time. One will be in the outfield. Parmelee? No, I see him as the next traded, maybe in a package.

[Dman]

I guess I don't see how this trade would be bad for the Twins. They gave up nothing but money to get Doumit in the first place. He had a bad year last year and is now redundant. The sooner they could get rid of him the better and to get an arguably top ten prospect from another team seems about the best the Twins could hope for even if Doumit would have had a bounce back year. If Gilmartin is irreparably damaged in my mind we still come out even as we might not have gotten anything for Doumit anyway and we gave up nothing to get him.

[jokin]

I remember the 2011 draft unfolding and, as the Twins approached their pick at 30, being really unhappy about them potentially taking Gilmartin. I knew they liked him and he totally fit what they did in the draft. When he went at 28, I breathed a huge sigh of relief... and then they took Levi Michael.

 

The Braves went on to give Gilmartin $1.134m as a signing bonus and got a pitcher that was considered near major-league ready by the end of his first full season.

 

Yes, Gilmartin was brutal in 2013 and doesn't profile as the same pitcher he did a year ago, but the Twins got him when his value was low and were able to get the Braves to take Doumit's full salary back? That move is impossible for Twins fans not to like.

 

Right on, Jeremy! Gotta give Ryan credit, he knows that there is potentially untapped value in catchers, even bad ones. That's 2 straight good deals in a row now in dealing seemingly valueless catchers that we were seemingly stuck with. (Imagine what TR might have gotten for Wilson Ramos!)

[TheLeviathan]

Both Hammer and Arcia can't dh at the same time. One will be in the outfield. Parmelee? No, I see him as the next traded, maybe in a package.

 

I said Hammer or Arcia, meaning we get rid of one of them haphazardly lumbering around out there.

 

Parmelee has no trade value, he won't be moved for anything significant. DFA is more likely, but I hope not.

[Trevor0333]

While they are moving 3.5 mill off the books, Kubel is essentially signed to a 1 year 3 mill deal so he's just replacing Doumit.

 

The team is basically trading Doumit for Kubel & Gilmartin. I'll take that deal anyday.

[Top Gun]

Braves got a great bat ,Twins got a??? Saves money we don't need saving!

[Top Gun]

How many dh and OFers do we need?

[Steve Lein]

Duensing's fastball sits around 92-93 and jumps out to 95. Saw him hit 97 at Hammond Stadium last ST, but that is Hammond Stadium. His K% was 21% last season. He has a plus slider and 2 more secondary pitches (curve and change). The Twins do not have any lefty in the system that fits this profile today and maybe have a couple (Thorpe, Gonsalves who are 3 seasons or so away) in the future.

 

So not similar lefties (other than Perkins). Diamond who is out of options traditionally does awfully against LHBs (because his best secondary pitch is a curve that he runs inside to lefties and is very hittable) Thielbar (and his .175 BABIP), Albers, Johnson are replacement level.

 

When I say "similar," I'm talking about the potential results they could give, not their pitching profile. It's nice to have a second lefty who can throw 95, but if that doesn't come with better results, it doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, how many flamethrowing relievers have we seen extinguished in the minors lately? That doesn't mean they're going to be good or potentially better than anyone else if/when they make it. Just saying the Twins have options now that I think could give similar or better results, and appears to me like Duensing is expendable because of them. As a sidenote to this though, I really wish the Twins would turn Melotakis back into a RP sooner rather than later, because he would fit your profile.

[snepp]

I've mentioned my hatred of WAR many times. Blackburn was somehow a positive WAR player in 2010 also despite his 5.42 ERA

 

 

He was effectively a replacement level player in 2010 (+0.2 FG, -0.2 BR), which looks about right given his numbers.

 

Referring to him a "positive" WAR player in 2010 is a little misleading.

[twinscowboysbulls]

Everyone just stop about the money. It's truly about the roster spot, 40 man and 25 man. Doumit didn't hit well enough last year to deserve to be on it, considering the current level of the team. He has NO defensive value. This team is trying to get better, to get better we need to see what our younger players can do. Not watch Doumit stink up the place. Much respect to Doumit for this 2012 season as a hitter, but last year he was atrocious. Find out what Parmelee can do, give DH at-bats to either better hitters or better prospects. I'm very excited that they did this deal.

 

If anyone remembers, I was ready to just cut him on Monday. Terry outdid me even if Gilmartin stinks. I didn't think there was a market for Doumit.

 

I think we'll end up like this.

LF: Arcia/Willingham

CF: Hicks/Presley

RF: Pressley/Kubel/Parmelee

DH: Willingham/Kubel/Arcia

 

Mastro and Colabello gone.

 

In September or sooner it'll be

LF: Presley

CF: Buxton

RF: Hicks

DH: Arcia/Kubel

 

If we add a 1B/3B I think Parmelee will be included in a trade, like someone else stated.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Alone ,No , but he could have ben packaged with a couple of players who wont be a Twin come opening day along with a prospect or 2 who wont be revelent to the teams success in the future , and yes we could have gotten a prospect or 2 with higher upside

 

Trades only work that way when the other side has to make a trade. You aren't going to get a top 100-150 prospect for Doumit, Deduno/Worley, and a reliever. As it is, Gilmartin being in the Brave's top 5 is likely a 150-200 guy at worst, depending on the strength of their system. It doesn't work unless the other team is stuck trying to unload something that they cannot do otherwise. Even win now teams aren't going to be terribly excited about that package because it provides them little value (if any).

[Thrylos]

When I say "similar," I'm talking about the potential results they could give, not their pitching profile. It's nice to have a second lefty who can throw 95, but if that doesn't come with better results, it doesn't really matter, does it? I mean, how many flamethrowing relievers have we seen extinguished in the minors lately? That doesn't mean they're going to be good or potentially better than anyone else if/when they make it. Just saying the Twins have options now that I think could give similar or better results, and appears to me like Duensing is expendable because of them. As a sidenote to this though, I really wish the Twins would turn Melotakis back into a RP sooner rather than later, because he would fit your profile.

 

Agreed about Melotakis.

 

But when you are about $50M less that what you should be spending if you spent 52% of your revenue, why get rid of your best option out there (Duensing) instead of the rest (Albers, Thielbar, Diamond, etc.) Duensing was pretty darn good out of the pen the last 2 seasons. Last season with 3.24 he had the third FIP behind Perkins and Fien in the pen of any pitcher who pitched more than 12 innings. K/9 was 8.26, 4th, behind those guys and Burton who had 8.32. Inflation of other numbers because of his .348 BABIP is largely because of the Clydesdales trotting at the OF (and IF) corners. The Twins need to really fix that OF defense and today was a good step towards that.

[Steve Lein]

Agreed about Melotakis.

 

But when you are about $50M less that what you should be spending if you spent 52% of your revenue, why get rid of your best option out there (Duensing) instead of the rest (Albers, Thielbar, Diamond, etc.) Duensing was pretty darn good out of the pen the last 2 seasons. Last season with 3.24 he had the third FIP behind Perkins and Fien in the pen of any pitcher who pitched more than 12 innings. K/9 was 8.26, 4th, behind those guys and Burton who had 8.32. Inflation of other numbers because of his .348 BABIP is largely because of the Clydesdales trotting at the OF (and IF) corners. The Twins need to really fix that OF defense and today was a good step towards that.

 

Fair enough. I guess I've just been unimpressed by him out of the pen. I keep expecting better than what I've seen. What scares me the most with him though, because he is a reliever, is his WHIP. The only guy he was better than in the Twins pen last year in that stat, was Roenicke.

[biggentleben]

Trades only work that way when the other side has to make a trade. You aren't going to get a top 100-150 prospect for Doumit, Deduno/Worley, and a reliever. As it is, Gilmartin being in the Brave's top 5 is likely a 150-200 guy at worst, depending on the strength of their system. It doesn't work unless the other team is stuck trying to unload something that they cannot do otherwise. Even win now teams aren't going to be terribly excited about that package because it provides them little value (if any).

 

Top 15 is more accurate. And the Braves are a lower-tier system right now due to all their recent graduations, so think more like a prospect in the 400-500 range.

[johnnydakota]

Trades only work that way when the other side has to make a trade. You aren't going to get a top 100-150 prospect for Doumit, Deduno/Worley, and a reliever. As it is, Gilmartin being in the Brave's top 5 is likely a 150-200 guy at worst, depending on the strength of their system. It doesn't work unless the other team is stuck trying to unload something that they cannot do otherwise. Even win now teams aren't going to be terribly excited about that package because it provides them little value (if any).

 

So Doumit, Parmelee,Worley, Duensing, Keplar and Bard wouldnt get you a top 100 prospect ?or how about say Burch Smith?

[biggentleben]

So Doumit, Parmelee,Worley, Duensing, Keplar and Bard wouldnt get you a top 100 prospect ?or how about say Burch Smith?

 

Why would any team say, "Hey, would you like to give us all your crap in one deal, and we'll reward you with a top 100 prospect?"

 

C'mon now.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I like this move from Atlanta side, they identified a prospect who had no real value for them and found a taker, a year early from having to be protected....

 

Good observation! From Atlanta's perspective, this is a kind of trade TR could stand to make more often. Although we haven't had a surplus as Atlanta currently does on the pitching side.

[Riverbrian]

Agreed about Melotakis.

 

But when you are about $50M less that what you should be spending if you spent 52% of your revenue, why get rid of your best option out there (Duensing) instead of the rest (Albers, Thielbar, Diamond, etc.) Duensing was pretty darn good out of the pen the last 2 seasons. Last season with 3.24 he had the third FIP behind Perkins and Fien in the pen of any pitcher who pitched more than 12 innings. K/9 was 8.26, 4th, behind those guys and Burton who had 8.32. Inflation of other numbers because of his .348 BABIP is largely because of the Clydesdales trotting at the OF (and IF) corners. The Twins need to really fix that OF defense and today was a good step towards that.

 

Clydesdales can run approx. 30 MPH

Usain Bolt can run approx. 23.5 MPH

 

Just saying you are not being fair to Clydesdales.

 

A Joke... Just a Joke.

 

I agree with you... This trade is a step toward much needed improvement of team defense on the corners.

[kab21]

I think people need to consider that Doumit isn't a worthless player. The problem is that he didn't have a role on the Twins since they have several guys that shouldn't play in the field and they are rebuilding. Doumit is not worth 3.5 M to an NL team but he does fill the a role on an NL team better than an AL team. He's a pinch hitter from both sides of the plate. Doumit isn't a great option as a starting DH but the Braves weren't going to sign a guy that is capable of being a full time DH.

 

It should have also been clear that the Twins weren't going to outright cut/DFA a player like Doumit. Gilmartin is nothing but AAA depth (not terrible) but not likely to contribute in the majors. I'm just impressed that the Twins didn't have to kick in any money in the deal. It actually isn't important but it does make Gilmartin mostly irrelevant.

[kab21]

Why would any team say, "Hey, would you like to give us all your crap in one deal, and we'll reward you with a top 100 prospect?"

 

C'mon now.

 

I think this could be the standard reply to 80% of the proposed trades on here. I have never understand why people think they can add up a bunch of guys that a bad team doesn't want while including one decent prospect to get a better prospect.

[TheLeviathan]

I think this could be the standard reply to 80% of the proposed trades on here. I have never understand why people think they can add up a bunch of guys that a bad team doesn't want while including one decent prospect to get a better prospect.

 

Well their biggest problem is not including Brian Duensing. Obviously.

[Thrylos]

Fair enough. I guess I've just been unimpressed by him out of the pen. I keep expecting better than what I've seen. What scares me the most with him though, because he is a reliever, is his WHIP. The only guy he was better than in the Twins pen last year in that stat, was Roenicke.

 

BABIP drives WHIP. If you normalized his WHIP for league average BABIP you get 1.28. Normalize Thielbar's for league average BABIP and you get 1.38 FWIW...