Time for Liriano to go

[darin617]

So in order to get a new pitching coach that means time to fire Gardy! I'm ready for that. There is no way Gardy would let them fire his BFF unless they threatened to fire him.

[darin617]

In other words he get traded to Miami and Ozzie takes him under his wing a brings him back from the dead.

[nokomismod]

To the pen until/if he gets his confidence back.

[twinsnorth49]

Not that simple...

 

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher

And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.

And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

Blaming Anderson is a cop out. There have been lots of one year wonders who never got back to that one great season, that's not the fault of any pitching coach, just the reality of how hard it is to pitch consistently in the majors for even a few years.

 

Much better pitchers out there after they left the Twins,who? Some may have had a little more success but we're placing the meaning of that word at a pretty low bar by saying that.

 

Calling him a scrub has no relevance, many highly successful staffs have pitching coaches who were little more than side notes as players, including 7 who never even played in the majors, including Jim Hickey, whose staff just laid the Twins bare the last 2 nights. Dave Duncan from the Cards isn't even a pitcher (a good player yes). Jeff Jones from the Tigers wasn't exactly a can't miss player. What do these three men have in common, yes, talented pitchers.

[Boom Boom]

Now I'll be the first to agree that Rick Anderson has gotten some undeserved accolades in this market. But Liriano is terrible, and at this point I'm not afraid of him coming back strong with another organization. I don't believe any pitching coach is going to fix him because every time he hits some minor difficulty he turns into a wriggling, spineless mass on the mound.

[Dilligaf69]

I have a better shot of cracking this rotation then the Twins do of just "dumping Liriano

[DaveW]

Not that simple...

 

Talking about a guy who was on a Cy Young level discussion because he used to miss bats and after the injury the pitching coach did not help him get back there because he was trying to make him a different pitcher

And the same pitching coach has messed up other pitchers who were much better after they left the Twins.

And that same pitching coach was a scrub when he pitched so his credibility is about as much as the hitting coach's about hitting

My head suddenly hurts.

[DaveW]

As long as the Twins are playing below .500 there is no reason to pull Liriano from the rotation. Might as well trot him out there every 5 days and pray/hope/etc he figures it out a bit and can build up a little trade value prior to the trade deadline.

 

If the Twins were actually looking like a playoff contender at this point, and there was a clear better option to replace him, then by all means pull him from the rotation, but I am not so sure they have a clear upgrade at this point in the Swarzak, Manship, bunch.

 

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing Diamond get a few starts in the majors, though he looks like a #5 at best.

[StormJH1]

Now I'll be the first to agree that Rick Anderson has gotten some undeserved accolades in this market. But Liriano is terrible, and at this point I'm not afraid of him coming back strong with another organization. I don't believe any pitching coach is going to fix him because every time he hits some minor difficulty he turns into a wriggling, spineless mass on the mound.

This. I think pitching coaches, in general, are terribly overrated. The guy above who wrote that Anderson and the Twins preach control and "pitch to contact" above all else nailed it. Liriano's problem isn't improper instruction - there are time he CAN'T find the zone. Players play, coaches coach.

 

I have no idea what value Liriano has left, but it's absolutely feasible that he could head to the bullpen and excel in a sort of Aroldis Chapman or Johnny Venters type role for 1-2 inning appearances in high-leverage situations. Sure, he could come in with no control and totally get bombed once in awhile. But if the mental aspect is what can't be fixed, maybe he can simplify things going out there focusing on getting 3 or 4 guys out, instead of dealing with pitch count management and how to deal with guys 2 or 3 times through the lineup. Even when Liriano's BAD, he still has the raw stuff to miss bats at a decent rate.

[StormJH1]

As long as the Twins are playing below .500 there is no reason to pull Liriano from the rotation. Might as well trot him out there every 5 days and pray/hope/etc he figures it out a bit and can build up a little trade value prior to the trade deadline.

 

If the Twins were actually looking like a playoff contender at this point, and there was a clear better option to replace him, then by all means pull him from the rotation, but I am not so sure they have a clear upgrade at this point in the Swarzak, Manship, bunch.

 

On another note, I wouldn't mind seeing Diamond get a few starts in the majors, though he looks like a #5 at best.

I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

 

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

[Riverbrian]

I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

 

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

The pen is a different mindset and it might suit him. When you start... You have to mix it up. That hitter you are facing in the 1st is coming up again to face you. You can't just bring it... It's a mind game and he just might not be grasping the mind game part.

 

If you put him in the pen for a LOOGY role or set up guy. He won't have to think. He can just bring it and challenge hitters. 2 seam, slider, 4 seam, change, slider. Put a k in the book. It might work. It just might.

 

I've also heard he doesn't handle pressure well. But as long as he doesn't think. As long as he just throws. Brings it. Who knows.

[DaveW]

I've seen enough and the Twins may have too. Your point is absolutely valid, but I think it would be more appropriate if the Twins still viewed him as an "upside" guy with a future in this rotation. How could they? Even if he strung together 3 great outings, there's still that chance he comes out and gets absolutely destroyed next time out. And since the start of 2011, those stretches have lasted for games at a time.

 

I think "trade value" is mostly a lost cause at this point...you could argue that moving him to the pen as a lefty strikeout specialist would actually ENHANCE his value to a contender in July, in the event he succeeded in that role. Because whatever this is...it ain't working.

Liriano's problem is he can't throw strikes, I'm not sure a move to the bullpen would help him to much at this point. Things could get even worse potentially!

 

I mean, I am as frustrated as it comes with the guy, at this point my only hope is he somehow manages to show a bit of a spark to make some team willing to take him off our hands at the trade deadline for a C type prospect, anything more would be a nice win in my book.

 

After spring training I really thought he had a shot at 180+ IP and a sub 4.00 ERA...ugh, that seems like years ago instead of just a month ago :/

[Riverbrian]

Liriano's problem is he can't throw strikes, I'm not sure a move to the bullpen would help him to much at this point. Things could get even worse potentially!

 

I mean, I am as frustrated as it comes with the guy, at this point my only hope is he somehow manages to show a bit of a spark to make some team willing to take him off our hands at the trade deadline for a C type prospect, anything more would be a nice win in my book.

 

After spring training I really thought he had a shot at 180+ IP and a sub 4.00 ERA...ugh, that seems like years ago instead of just a month ago :/

You are right... The only thing I can say is that his location problems MAY stem from thinking too much. Worry to much... You try to locate. Try to locate without having the skill set to locate and you got walks. I think he should go an inning out pf the pen. Let it buck and see what happens. It might fail miserably but it also might work.

 

We know for sure that this finesse thing isn't working. Even Verlander has to mix it up as a starter. Out of the pen he could just challenge. It might work.

[TwinsGuy55422]

You are right... The only thing I can say is that his location problems MAY stem from thinking too much. Worry to much... You try to locate. Try to locate without having the skill set to locate and you got walks. I think he should go an inning out pf the pen. Let it buck and see what happens. It might fail miserably but it also might work.

 

We know for sure that this finesse thing isn't working. Even Verlander has to mix it up as a starter. Out of the pen he could just challenge. It might work.

I agree. I think a good chunck of his control issues are from too many layers of thinking that come with starting pitching. As a reliever, you know you are going out there to get a couple of guys or maybe pitch an inning or two at the most. That takes a lot of thinking out of the equation and allows you to just go after hitters. Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of failed starters have found a nitch in the bullpen.

[Riverbrian]

I agree. I think a good chunck of his control issues are from too many layers of thinking that come with starting pitching. As a reliever, you know you are going out there to get a couple of guys or maybe pitch an inning or two at the most. That takes a lot of thinking out of the equation and allows you to just go after hitters. Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of failed starters have found a nitch in the bullpen.

I won't correct you. You are not wrong.

[Thor]

Gardy said something interesting last night. He said after Mauers walk that Lester started pounding the strike zone because he wanted to stay out there and that is what good pitchers do when their pitch count starts getting high. I would take a different approach to Liriano. I would tell him he is going to throw 120 pitches unless he completes the game first. I know Pinnella did that with someone when their pen was wore out and I think he gave up 17 runs but he turned things around right after that and ad a pretty decent couple years. What could it hurt. Even if he throws his arm out that wouldn't be a great loss the way he is going and if it worked Gardy would look like a genious.

[gmarais66]

I was looking through Liriano's splits to see if I could see any redeeming stats that stand out... The only thing that stood out was that he has pitched well in the first inning, which tells me, if his next start is just as bad, they should try him in the bullpen to see if he can hold it together for one inning, like he does in his starts... Incredibly, opposing hitters are batting .415 against Liriano on balls in play... That is powerful bad... Compare that to Pavano in 2011, when he led the league in hits allowed and opposing batters hit .291 on balls in play... Also, I found it amazing that he has yet to retire a No. 8 hitter this season...

[ashbury]

I haven't seen any mention here of a tidbit found on mlbtraderumors.com, which states that "it was announced" (Dave St. Peter?) that Liriano would skip his next start and pitch on May 1. Sounds like no bullpen duty, just rest; we shall see.

[luckylager]

Definitely give him a shot in the bullpen. Whatever Liriano's problem is seems to be between the ears. Hopefully the change will do him good. Give him a shot at redeeming himself and possibly the chance of another team (not the Twins) signing him next year.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

I would give him a shot in the Bullpen.

His first innings seem to be OK.

Remember LaTroy Hawkins?

Unfortunately I do remember LaTroy Hawkins. Actually Hawkins may be a good analogy. You never know what you will get on any given day.