Over moderation

[snepp]

I have not, but the new Prospectus is on my list of things to get.

[old nurse]

It sounds like passing the buck to me.

 

I apologize if that's not the intent, but that's how it comes across.

 

Not the intent at all. There are comments and stories that appeared to cross from game to game. To post something in a game thread is not the problem. To be part of the ongoing could be. Integrating into a group requires work. To me the game threads appear to be a core group. For a very occasional member to such group it would difficult to be part of the core. My comments were not meant to be negative towards anyone. It was offered as an observation as one of any number of reasons why someone might shy away. Game threads do allow one to see a little more of some of the personality of the posters. It is, to maybe only me, the social part of the board.

[Riverbrian]

Not the intent at all. There are comments and stories that appeared to cross from game to game. To post something in a game thread is not the problem. To be part of the ongoing could be. Integrating into a group requires work. To me the game threads appear to be a core group. For a very occasional member to such group it would difficult to be part of the core. My comments were not meant to be negative towards anyone. It was offered as an observation as one of any number of reasons why someone might shy away. Game threads do allow one to see a little more of some of the personality of the posters. It is, to maybe only me, the social part of the board.

 

I can see what you are saying Nurse. There is a core group of us but the only tangible thing about the core is active participation.

 

We got some hit and runners as well. Ones who show up once a month.

 

We have jokers... Straight men... Clergy... Librarians... Foster Brooks and even people from Iowa.

 

There are a ton of different personalities and there is room for yours as well. The last thing we want... Is for anyone to feel sheepish about entering. I think you'd be surprised how fast the integration would happen.

[twinsnorth49]

Not the intent at all. There are comments and stories that appeared to cross from game to game. To post something in a game thread is not the problem. To be part of the ongoing could be. Integrating into a group requires work. To me the game threads appear to be a core group. For a very occasional member to such group it would difficult to be part of the core. My comments were not meant to be negative towards anyone. It was offered as an observation as one of any number of reasons why someone might shy away. Game threads do allow one to see a little more of some of the personality of the posters. It is, to maybe only me, the social part of the board.

 

I get that as well Nurse, but really it's just a matter of diving in and getting over any reservations. It's how most of the core group in the game threads became as active as they are there, just open up, it's as simple as that. I think if you look back nobody is really ridiculed or ostracized in the game threads (as much as we should with RB), everyone is welcome, I'd love some new voices so I don't have to read so many of Chief's crusty old jokes, and I swear to God if I have to read another Carnac routine....please join in.....please, I'm begging!

 

Seriously though, I hear you, I'm just not sure what can be done other to encourage people to come out of their shell.......anonymously on the internet.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Not the intent at all. There are comments and stories that appeared to cross from game to game. To post something in a game thread is not the problem. To be part of the ongoing could be. Integrating into a group requires work. To me the game threads appear to be a core group. For a very occasional member to such group it would difficult to be part of the core. My comments were not meant to be negative towards anyone. It was offered as an observation as one of any number of reasons why someone might shy away. Game threads do allow one to see a little more of some of the personality of the posters. It is, to maybe only me, the social part of the board.

 

I'll use myself as an example on the game threads. I didn't participate in them much at all in 2012 and in 2013 I was more of a hit and run guy. Never felt unwelcome, and honestly, I find it to be some pretty amusing banter for most games... but I was hardly a regular. It was something to do when I didn't have much going on and wanted to veg...

 

What it did do is allow me to build a relationship with a few individuals on this board. Without a doubt that wouldn't have happened in the other threads. I can see how some would find it intimidating, but I never felt unwelcome.

[oldguy10]

Hopefully with Baseball Prospectus now in the stores we can get some vigorous discussion of the section on the Twins written by who else but Aaron Gleeman.

[OldTwinky]

The moderators have ruined this website IMHO. I rarely check this site for info anymore.

[Twins Twerp]

The moderators have ruined this website IMHO. I rarely check this site for info anymore.

 

Ironic...but I see where that is coming from. Ruin it, no, have double standards and good ole' boy tendencies. Perhaps. The information is good and the idea of having a one stop Twins site is great. I come here first during the day to get links to other sites like BP, BA, John Sickles (Sickels), ESPN Insider and other important sites (all of which I have memberships too). I can't get enough about prospects and consider myself a prospect junky. That is the good of the site.

 

The bad of the site...well...I understand moderating, but I feel that on a few occasions, IMHO, the moderators are TOO smart, TOO smug, and TOO delete happy. Don't take it the wrong way, I still love the site and the writers...just dislike the sites English Majors who keep deleting my posts. (It is ironic because I don't think English Majors should be capitolized)

 

P.S. I spelled capitalized wrong too, I am on a roll.

[Riverbrian]

 

The bad of the site...well...I understand moderating, but I feel that on a few occasions, IMHO, the moderators are TOO smart, TOO smug, and TOO delete happy. Don't take it the wrong way.

 

I'll try not to

[glunn]

The moderators have worked hard to develop a policy that focuses on respect for other members. The goal is to promote discussion that is robust without insulting other members.

 

Personal attacks on another member are almost always going to result in a deletion of the post, and the issuance of a warning or infraction. Trolling, which takes many forms, is disrespectful to the community as a whole, and we are not going to allow that.

 

Our core mission is clear. As for bad grammar and spelling, we ask that people make an effort, but I cannot recall any post that has been deleted for bad grammar and spelling.

 

As has been noted, there are unmoderated forums where people can call each other stupid, and troll without restriction. The TD forums were created to provide a place for Twins fans to talk (and respectfully debate) about baseball, and not to watch fellow fans try to tear each other apart.

 

Moderating a site like this is not easy, because the debates are often very passionate -- the current thread about expectations for 2014 is a good example. Some people have standards for measuring success that are vastly different than other people's standards, and it's not easy for us to walk the line there between allowing robust debate while preventing a flame war.

 

A good umpire ignores the crowd and makes the best calls that he can make. We are not here to be popular and some calls may, in hindsight, not be the calls that we should have made. So long as we do our best, I will be satisfied. Also, the mere existence of this thread shows that we are open to constructive criticism.

[howieramone1406390264]

Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board. My favorite mod awarded me points for saying the parade starts in 2015 and followed that up with another when I posted Ryan was the two time Baseball Executive of the Year. Seems that's trolling/flame-baiting on the Twins fan board.

[Riverbrian]

Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board. My favorite mod awarded me points for saying the parade starts in 2015 and followed that up with another when I posted Ryan was the two time Baseball Executive of the Year. Seems that's trolling/flame-baiting on the Twins fan board.

 

Howie... You need to realize...

 

Some Anti-Ryan supporters think we have a bias to the Pro-Ryan Crowd and some Pro-Ryan supporters think we have a bias to the Anti-Ryan crowd.

 

We know this because we get the PM's and we read them. We've been hit from both directions,

 

We moderate disrespect primarily... Not opinion.

 

If you were mis-moderated a time or two. Tomorrow is a new day.

[glunn]

Some of the moderators would like to see Ryan gone. Other moderators would like to see him stay.

 

Some days I have wanted Ryan to be fired like a dog. Other days I have completely agreed with the arguments for keeping him.

 

We moderators are a members only club, but it's simply not true to say that we have any party line as to the issues that are debated on the forums. Our only party line is on enforcing TD policy.

 

If we infract a pro-Ryan poster for insulting an anti-Ryan poster then we seem anti-Ryan. If we infract an anti-Ryan poster for trolling then we seem pro-Ryan.

 

If people who are not moderators could read the posts that we have deleted, you would know that we have enforced TD policy against both groups. I would estimate that about 60% of the time I get complaints about us being "homers" who are intolerant of criticism of Ryan and the FO, and about 40% of the time the complaint is that we are biased against supporters of Ryan and the FO.

 

Personally, I have deleted more posts where in general I agreed with the poster than posts where I disagreed, and I think that most or all of the other moderators have done the same.

 

Bottom line -- if you are respectful of other members and refrain from trolling, then you can say anything you want. You can post 100 reasons why Ryan should be fired or 100 reasons why the critics of Ryan are incorrect. This is all laid out very clearly and in detail (with examples) in the official policy thread.

 

What you cannot do is call another poster stupid or refer to Ryan as "baldy" or keep posting the same thing in multiple threads to the level that it constitutes trolling. This is all spelled out very clearly in the policy thread, and I have very little sympathy for posters who obviously have ignored us when we begged them to just read and follow the TD policy.

[snepp]

Definitely double standards from the members only club. Not that long ago the handful of Pro-Ryan supporters were not made to feel real welcome on the Twins fan board.

 

There have been, by far, more "Anti-Ryan" posters infracted and/or banned from this site than the aforementioned "Pro" club could ever conceive of experiencing.

 

Your problems have been entirely the delivery of your messages. That is no one else's fault but your own. Not some perceived double standard, not the anti-crowd, not the moderation staff.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Bottom line -- if you are respectful of other members and refrain from trolling, then you can say anything you want. You can post 100 reasons why Ryan should be fired or 100 reasons why the critics of Ryan are incorrect. This is all laid out very clearly and in detail (with examples) in the official policy thread.

 

What you cannot do is call another poster stupid or refer to Ryan as "baldy" or keep posting the same thing in multiple threads to the level that it constitutes trolling. This is all spelled out very clearly in the policy thread, and I have very little sympathy for posters who obviously have ignored us when we begged them to just read and follow the TD policy.

 

Well said and I'm bolding this paragraph because it's so bloody easy to understand, yet we still get flak for enforcing it.

 

This isn't difficult, folks. We don't care if you're pro-Ryan, anti-Ryan, pro-Gardy, anti-Gardy, pro-trees, or anti-trees.

 

What matters is that you do not insult other posters and that you do not take your personal pet topics into every thread you enter. We don't care where you stand on the subject, only that you argue your opinion in a way that doesn't detract from the conversation or the forum at large.

[howieramone1406390264]

There have been, by far, more "Anti-Ryan" posters infracted and/or banned from this site than the aforementioned "Pro" club could ever conceive of experiencing.

 

Your problems have been entirely the delivery of your messages. That is no one else's fault but your own. Not some perceived double standard, not the anti-crowd, not the moderation staff.

 

Until Thanksgiving, the anti-Ryan group was at least 10 times larger than the handful of Ryan supporters. I have no problem conceiving the much larger group would receive more infractions and bans than the much smaller group.

 

I'm late to the dance here, on what has become a rather lengthy thread, that doesn't seem to want to go away. I was not anywhere near the first to bring up the members only mentality, double standards, or favoritism. I'm merely adding my me too.

 

Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.

[JB_Iowa]

What matters is ... that you do not take your personal pet topics into every thread you enter.

 

For me, this part is probably the most difficult because the poster may see a connection between his/her "pet topic" and the posted thread that isn't readily apparent to the moderator. And it may well be based on a small side comment in someone else's comment.

 

The lesson from that is, I guess, to consider the overall message/content of the thread rather than to take off on a particular comment (especially a minor point of someone else's comment).

 

On the plus side, I do want to thank TD for regulating language. I'll on occasion use something like "put b*tts in the seat" -- I'm not sure putting in the u would violate the policy, it's just the way I've always posted.

 

But as we've been in college BB season (and my beloved Hawkeyes are actually relevant again), I've been reading a wider variety of sites. I hope to never see the "F word" again. For any young posters here who may use it on other sites, it really has lost any impact value when one can't read two sentences without it being used.

[twinsnorth49]

 

Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.

 

Avoiding the hornet's nest is much easier when all posters familiarize themselves with and follow the comment policy. The comment policy is the basis for which deletions and infraction points are handed out, not one's individual opinion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Let's see if the mods can step up to the plate this year, or if a hornet's nest is more comfortable for the members only club.

 

It's a two way street. Every moderator at Twins Daily works their ass off and deliberates constantly over rules, violations, when to take action, and when to "let it slide".

 

The same cannot be said for many posters. If you want the moderators to step up their game, it's only fair that the moderators demand the same accountability for the posting community.

[Brock Beauchamp]

For me, this part is probably the most difficult because the poster may see a connection between his/her "pet topic" and the posted thread that isn't readily apparent to the moderator. And it may well be based on a small side comment in someone else's comment.

 

The lesson from that is, I guess, to consider the overall message/content of the thread rather than to take off on a particular comment (especially a minor point of someone else's comment).

 

We let a ton of comments slide that could derail a thread. I'm a firm believer in the fluidity of threads and that, by nature, a lengthy thread will evolve into different topics once the original has run its course.

 

That's not really what we're talking about, though... We rarely take action against an off-topic post until we see a poster make repeated, non-stop attempts to derail multiple threads in the forum.

 

Talking about Ryan's refusal/inability to spend to Perceived Spending Threshold X in a Terry Ryan thread is fine. Taking that topic to another thread about the front office on occasion is probably okay, too.

 

But when we see the same poster make the same comment in five different threads, two of them unrelated to Terry Ryan and/or the front office, that's when we roll our eyes and are forced to take action.

 

It's a tough call to make and yes, posters are going to feel unfairly targeted at times... But they have to take accountability for their own actions. We have clearly outlined the rules multiple times. Any time a poster makes an attempt to derail a thread and/or inject a pet argument into the forum, they risk deletion of that comment. It doesn't mean their comment will be deleted every time but the post runs risk of deletion and they have no right to complain about it if it happens... They're the ones clearly in violation of the rules, not the moderators for enforcing those rules.

 

In short, there are some posters that could do well for themselves by taking on a little accountability for their own actions instead of blaming the moderators for enforcing rules that they didn't make.

 

If you don't like the rules, feel free to complain to me any time. I'm one of the people who made a large portion of those rules. Don't take it out on the moderators.

[oldguy10]

Vigorous discussion to be sure, much of it centered around pro and anti Terry Ryan posts which is understandable. And not much on pro and anti ownership. There is a large group of people that think ownership is merely feathering their own nest without doing a thing to better the product on the field. Is this valid or not and furthermore does it belong in this forum? I believe moderators should take a close look at this now and in the future.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Vigorous discussion to be sure, much of it centered around pro and anti Terry Ryan posts which is understandable. And not much on pro and anti ownership. There is a large group of people that think ownership is merely feathering their own nest without doing a thing to better the product on the field. Is this valid or not and furthermore does it belong in this forum? I believe moderators should take a close look at this now and in the future.

 

The same rules apply to everyone employed by the Twins, including ownership. If you remain respectful to the people themselves (ie. no cheapshot insults) and keep the pro- or anti- comments to relevant threads, we have no issues with people dogging Twins ownership.

 

Hell, I'll admit it now. I've hated Twins ownership for years. Still hate it.

[oldguy10]

Should we or should we not be critics of the owners as regards how they handle their finances in respect to how much they merely pocket and how much they put back into the organization. And is it really our business as fans to do so? Or if we are displeased with how they are financing or not financing the team should we instead of criticize merely stay away from Target Field?

[twinsnorth49]

I don't see anything wrong with voicing one's opinion on how they feel the Pohlads should run the team. As long as those opinions are relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal insults it's a worthwhile discussion.

 

It's when, as Brock states, those opinions find there way into every thread involving the Twins that it becomes unacceptable.

[oldguy10]

Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?

[ashbury]

As long as those opinions are relevant to the topic at hand and avoid personal insults it's a worthwhile discussion.

 

And in particular, if you feel a topic hasn't been examined sufficiently, starting a new thread about it is a way to guarantee that at least your opinions will be relevant. I can imagine the mods needing to delete a thread if it violates the other standards such as minimal respect, but in practice I can't remember the last time I even debated internally whether a new thread required moderator action. (Except commercial Spam, not an issue here.)

[ashbury]

Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?

 

OK, seriously, are you just playing around here? The related issues you've raised are interesting, but the previous two have already been answered from the perspective of moderation, and this one is clearly the same.

 

If you were to raise a serious topic in a new thread, you can expect the moderators to use discretion and allow sufficient leeway to discuss it like adults. If you abuse this leeway, or post in every thread "wah, teh Poladzes are teh cheap!", then expect the discretion to be used in the other direction.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Should the issue of a new ballpark built for them and they promising to spend more money on the team instead of pocketing it for the most part be addressed? To me this is huge but does it impugn their intent? Murky stuff here, even moral issues in my mind. When they promised to spend more money on the roster and then cut payroll what are the fans to think? It can hardly be had both ways, can it?

 

Again, you have every right to address this. You can create a thread addressing it, or as threads are created where this topic is relevant, absolutely.

 

I'm not sure if you frequented TD last July, but where this particular issue turned into a hornets nest was when a few posters decided to hijack every other thread with this stuff. This was in my pre-moderator days, but I'd go to the minor league forum to read up on what Miguel Sano was doing (or something like that) only to find these same posters derailing those threads (and very rarely was it respectful conversation). It made it real difficult to continue posting here. Admins of the site were publicly complaining that they didn't like going to the forums on their own site. There's nothing healthy about it.

[diehardtwinsfan]

To be clear, most of the moderators are split on the pro-anti crowd just as most of the board is. If you are curious about me, I wanted Gardy let go this offseason. I was of the opinion that Ryan needed to hang around for another year or two as he is the right guy to do a rebuild and then it would be his time to go due to his refusal to do the FA thing (though this offseason has changed that with me). I don't care for the Pohlads, hate Bud Selig, and can see both sides of the argument on the FA spending/lack thereof debate.

 

I've moderated individuals on both sides of the debate, most of which has had to do with posters refusing to make their arguments in a respectful manner. There's no reason why anyone would need to refer to Selig as "Pud Selig", Ryan as "Curly", Gardy as "that fat garden gnome", or the GB Packers as "peckers", and while some of these might be funny, and I might share that disdain, I don't think it's unreasonble for the admins and site owners to expect people to be able to voice their opinion in a way that doesn't make them come across as childish and immature. I get the humor aspect of things, and I agree that this is where the line gets muddied. Dave's post is a good example of that.

 

Bottom line though. This is their site. It isn't my site, it's theirs. If the guys that run this site want people to behave in this manner, then so be it.

[DaveW]

Lol Pud Selig.