Pirates Reacquire Duke Welker from Twins

[TheLeviathan]

It seems like a good idea for the team to trade a guy like that for something that fits better.

 

Please elaborate on this better "fit". He looks incredibly redundant to me.

[whydidnt]

Sometimes their value is that they are overrated. Twins turned Bullock and got a 2 WAR season out of a back end starter. Same thing could happen here. I just don't get the fuss over this. As others have pointed out, Welker isn't anything special, isn't that valuable and he plays at a position of depth on this team. It seems like a good idea for the team to trade a guy like that for something that fits better.

 

I don't disagree that neither of the guys will likely amount to anything. I just think bringing in junk balling 29 year olds and placing them on the 40 man roster is a bad move and similar to what we have seen in the past. After 3 straight 90+ loss seasons it's time to try something else. If Johnson has a substantial role with the Twins this year, it's safe to say we are looking at 4th straight awful year. If not, then what's the point?

[whydidnt]

Please elaborate on this better "fit". He looks incredibly redundant to me.

I agree, how is he different than the 1/2 dozen or so AAAA arms the Twins run through the major league roster, every year?

[DaveW]

Aside from Diamond they have Albers, Darnell and Dean, not to mention another clone in Pedro Hernandez who they already felt comfortable enough to ditch. Why didn't they just hang onto Hernandez if this was going to be the outcome? Not that I wanted them to.

The Twins know what they have in Diamond, Albers (not a realistic option, great story, but not a realistic option), Darnell and Dean are interesting though does either one throw as hard as Johnson? Maybe they just want to take a look at Johnson or see something in him?

 

Who knows, either way not a big deal.

[gunnarthor]

Please elaborate on this better "fit". He looks incredibly redundant to me.

 

Sure, I think these are the possible starters on the 40 man roster right now - Albers, Correia, Gibson, Deduno, Diamond, Hendricks, Johnson, Worley. The Twins need depth there and Johnson could end up the 3rd best of that group.

 

In the bullpen the team has Burton, Duensing, Fien, Ibara, Perkins, Pressly, Swarzak, Tonkin, Thieldbar. (With a bunch of other potential 40 man additions). Johnson fits the teams needs better. We can bitch and moan about Johnson being a bad player but we're talking about the bottom of a 40 man roster. The team wasn't going to turn Welker into anything else. So why keep him? Roll the dice on Welker and see if you can get a Scott Diamond again.

[nicksaviking]

In the bullpen the team has Burton, Duensing, Fien, Ibara, Perkins, Pressly, Swarzak, Tonkin, Thieldbar. (With a bunch of other potential 40 man additions). Johnson fits the teams needs better. We can bitch and moan about Johnson being a bad player but we're talking about the bottom of a 40 man roster. The team wasn't going to turn Welker into anything else. So why keep him? Roll the dice on Welker and see if you can get a Scott Diamond again.

 

While I'm always looking for a good deal, not turning Welker into anything else may have been the better move. At this point, we are not just trading Welker, we are also opening up the possibility of losing another prospect due to the loss of the roster spot now occupied by Johnson. I'm not into giving up two players for a guy like Johnson. I would have rather just removed Welker from the 40-man if this trade means the team also loses Achter, Wimmers or Oliveros.

[gunnarthor]

While I'm always looking for a good deal, not turning Welker into anything else may have been the better move. At this point, we are not just trading Welker, we are also opening up the possibility of losing another prospect due to the loss of the roster spot now occupied by Johnson. I'm not into giving up two players for a guy like Johnson. I would have rather just removed Welker from the 40-man if this trade means the team also loses Achter, Wimmers or Oliveros.

 

Team has a ton of space and could jettison a lot of guys before we have to worry about losing anyone of value. See the other thread.

[nicksaviking]

Team has a ton of space and could jettison a lot of guys before we have to worry about losing anyone of value. See the other thread.

 

I don't disagree, but Johnson should be near the top of the cut list so why go after him? There's room on the roster but there will still be some guys left out in the cold, it's not a given everyone will be safe from getting picked.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Sure, I think these are the possible starters on the 40 man roster right now - Albers, Correia, Gibson, Deduno, Diamond, Hendricks, Johnson, Worley. The Twins need depth there and Johnson could end up the 3rd best of that group.

 

Doesn't look like the Twins need depth there, they need quality. If a guy like Johnson has any chance to be your third best MLB starter, you don't need another guy like Johnson.

 

I hope this trade is more about not needing a reliever, and getting an extra starter for Rochester, but the past few seasons of cycling through AAA starters in MLB (and Johnson's 40-man roster requirement) have me suspicious.

[DaveW]

Doesn't look like the Twins need depth there, they need quality. If a guy like Johnson has any chance to be your third best MLB starter, you don't need another guy like Johnson.

 

I hope this trade is more about not needing a reliever, and getting an extra starter for Rochester, but the past few seasons of cycling through AAA starters in MLB (and Johnson's 40-man roster requirement) have me suspicious.

 

Johnson can take Fryers 40 man spot, problem solved.

[JP3700]

For what it's worth, Thrylos' scouting report was accurate.

 

Fastball 91-94, throws a 4-seam and a sinker. Change up is his second pitch and he throws it 82-86, small sample size but hitters had a tough time with that pitch. Throws a slider and curve as well. http://www.fangraphs.com/pitchfx.aspx?playerid=886&position=P

 

So he does seem to have better stuff than the guys we've been throwing out. I'm okay with some competition for the 5th spot/bullpen. He could be a useful player.

[Shane Wahl]

Not only could he potentially be useful, but they got him for Welker, who isn't going to be useful for the Twins.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Those pitchFX numbers are from his 10 MLB innings, which were mostly in relief, right? Suggests his velocity might be a little lower when starting.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Johnson can take Fryers 40 man spot, problem solved.

 

Its not that we can't find 40 man spots, it is that if he is AAA depth (which is what he should be, we still need at least 2 additional MLB starters), you generally don't need 40 man guys for that. Walters and Deduno have been off and on the roster at various points the last few years.

[JP3700]

Those pitchFX numbers are from his 10 MLB innings, which were mostly in relief, right? Suggests his velocity might be a little lower when starting.

 

That's correct. He pitched 8.1 of his 10.1 innings out of the pen. We can't really assume that his velocity spikes when he relieves though, not all pitchers do. I've also read a couple of scouting reports that stated his fastball is 90-94.

 

Like I said, he could be useful. I'm okay with taking different avenues to try to acquire arms. I haven't seen him pitch enough to know what he can or can't be.

[TheLeviathan]

Sure, I think these are the possible starters on the 40 man roster right now - Albers, Correia, Gibson, Deduno, Diamond, Hendricks, Johnson, Worley. The Twins need depth there and Johnson could end up the 3rd best of that group.

 

You made a list that contains 8 people. Right now there is no question he closer to 8 than 3 on that depth chart. This also doesn't include Darnell or any (hopefully) acquired pitchers in the FA or trade markets. So basically, he's your 10th or worse guy. And he brings very little in the way of upside.

 

The very arguments you make about Welker being bottom of the 40 man fluff apply to this guy too. All we did was add an older version of Welker and a position we're already redundant at.

[LaBombo]

http://dahayden.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Titanic-Deck-Chairs.jpg

[Thrylos]

And yet another indy league veteran. Huh.

 

Hold it

 

He was cut from Boston in the middle of the 2011 season and went to Kansas (IL) to finish the season. Several of his College (Wichita St) teammates were playing there and he knew the place so he chose to go there. This is not a guy who could not find a job and went to the ILs. Signed with Pittsburgh next winter. Not a Colabello/Thielbar/Albers story by any means.

[whydidnt]

I guess some of us confuse "stuff" with "ability to strike guys out". I know I do, when I say a guy doesn't have stuff, I don't mean he can't throw 94 MPH, I mean his pitching repertoire does not seem to create easy outs. Johnson has pitched 431 AAA innings and has a K/9 rate of 5.9/9 ip, his K/BB rate is well under the magic 2.00 line. For reference Pedro Hernandez (in a smaller sample size) at AAA: 6.2/3.09, and we saw how that worked out for the Twins.

 

It's very rare for a guy with this long of a questionable AAA track record to get magically better in the majors. It's just more of the same. We can trash the viability of Welker all we want, and perhaps for merit, but I just don't see anything in Johnson's past to indicate he has the "stuff" to be a competent major league starter. Unless he has developed a knuckle ball it just ain't happening unless he gets extremely lucky, and that labels him as more of the same to me.

[goulik]

I thought he was a former number one who is this old upon reaching the majors because of injuries... This is someone that sounds like he is a minor upgrade over some of what we have already got.

 

I will never complain about an upgrade and do not understand the vitriol exhibited here. What have we lost? Nothing!! Did we gain much? No, just a little but it is a gain.

 

I personally prefer a 94 MPH fastball over 88 which is what has gone out there at times recently... Just trying to say take a deep breath and chill a bit.

[Otto von Ballpark]

TR just described Johnson as "hitting 90-92" and "a rich man's Diamond" (apparently a little better stuff than Scott). Also noted Johnson was a former first rounder, pitched with Pelfrey in college, and said he was impressed with his AAA numbers.

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe, maybe not. I suspect everything you said was said a few years ago with the Diamond/Bullock fiasco.

 

Last year the Twins had 8 starters start 10 games or more. The year before, 9. They need depth. Hopefully, Meyer and May and Gibson all break out for us. But complaining about moving a redundant bullpen arm for a starter is .... you know, I can' even explain how much this complaining doesn't make sense to me. I agree with Goulik, the vitriol over this is stunning.

 

First off, chill. There is no vitriol. That's absurd. I've stated I'm perplexed, befuddled, confused, etc. There isn't anyone here spewing "vitriol" so let's get off that right away. The problem is trying to make sense of this.

 

You said yourself that Welker was basically a waste of a 40 man spot. I'd argue having 10+ starters taking up your 40 man is equally wasting 40 man spots. The problem, as I bolded above, isn't that they need "depth" - they need better pitching. Johnson isn't "better" than several guys already on the roster. He's redundant. Could he turn out to be a benefit? Sure, he might. But if the Twins are hunting for their 10th starter on the depth chart to put on the 40 man I have serious reservations about that thinking. It's not encouraging at all, in fact.

 

Especially if you hold some hope, as I do, that there will be starters added via trade or FA. The only sense I can make of this is that they think they can waive him off the 40 man more easily than Welker and still retain him. But I don't know enough about those rules to say anything with certainty.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Maybe, maybe not. I suspect everything you said was said a few years ago with the Diamond/Bullock fiasco.

 

Last year the Twins had 8 starters start 10 games or more. The year before, 9. They need depth. Hopefully, Meyer and May and Gibson all break out for us. But complaining about moving a redundant bullpen arm for a starter is .... you know, I can' even explain how much this complaining doesn't make sense to me. I agree with Goulik, the vitriol over this is stunning.

 

The worst starting staff in baseball, two years running, needs "depth"?

 

A staff that has had to overly rely on AAA guys like Johnson the last few years.... Needs more guys like Johnson?

 

I liked the Diamond-Bullock move. To Bill Smith's credit, he was fairly aggressive dealing low minors guys and it worked.

[kab21]

I can't believe there are 5 pages on this completely non-interesting transaction. Neither of these guys are interesting and would just be 40 man roster hanger-onners.

[snepp]

As it turns out, Welker wasn't the PTBNL after all. He was the Player To Be Named Earlier.

 

 

Likety-like like like.

[golfboy1]

I can't believe there are 5 pages on this completely non-interesting transaction. Neither of these guys are interesting and would just be 40 man roster hanger-onners.

 

 

Yea, this is much ado about nothing. Neither of these guys are anything but a lottery ticket that the Twins hope they can get lucky with.

 

I guess they would rather take a chance on a LH starter than a RH power reliever. With their current collection of abysmal starters I can see the logic of that.

 

There is no way either of these guys are going to cause the Twins to lose someone they want to protect.

[Otto von Ballpark]

There is no way either of these guys are going to cause the Twins to lose someone they want to protect.

 

It does appear that way -- the Twins were pretty aggressive in their 40-man protections today.

 

It's just hard to shake memories of these last two years' patchwork rotations... I know it's still early in the offseason, but if any position warranted some urgency, it would be the Twins rotation...