The dreaded return of Butera

[Seth Stohs]

yeah, I don't get where people think that Gardy is a big Butera guy. They like his defense... they've been very upfront about the offense. I'm not in favor of a 3rd catcher, but I am in favor of Doumit in the lineup every day, and again, there aren't a lot of changes made in the game, so playing with a 3 man bench and a 3rd catcher, not a big deal.

 

And, if Butera was up the whole rest of the season, I can't imagine him getting more than an average of two plate appearances a week. That might be high. I think we're talking about late-inning defense and late game injury replacement. That puts him at like 60-70 plate appearances. Can't make much difference to a team's season in that few at bats.

 

Last year was a weird year that Twins fans need to get over. He got that number of plate appearances because Mauer was hurt and there wasn't a Doumit on the roster. That wouldn't happen again.

[Thrylos]

I'm still puzzled by this perception. I asked for evidence that Gardenhire is somehow partial to Butera in another thread and don't think I got a reply. .

Plenty of evidence:

 

Morales (and Ramos) was better than Butera in 2010, but Butera made the trip up North.

Rivera has been a better catcher in 2011 (if you look at AAA numbers as well; and Liriano has been more effective with Rivera catching him than with anybody else) but Butera is the one who stayed with the team when Mauer was deemed ready.

 

Now you are going to hear the excuse that Butera is a "great defensive catcher". Look at the numbers, especially PBs to see whether the excuse is substantiated by the numbers. Fact: Last season Butera had more PBs than Doumit/inning caught

 

So that's that... There is no smoking gun, but....

[twinsnorth49]

By "knee-jerk", I meant that it is a reflex, and in our case, it's a learned reflex. It might be fun to get mad about, but I think the criticism melts a bit when faced by any real analysis.

As for "useless" - that's my point. Yeah, Butera is relatively useless. So would be an extra middle infielder. Or a 5th outfielder. Or a 13th pitcher. To me, whatever move the Twins make is almost a freebie.

Criticism of.....Butera? Having a 3rd catcher? Analyzing one bad player with another?

 

The sad part is we're even discussing this, the reality is this is about what the best thing to settle for is. It would be nice if the Twins could use that freebie on someone who could actually help the team. That's my point.

[John Bonnes]

Ramos was a fulltime guy, that's why he wasn't there. I'll take your word on Morales.

I personally might have given Rivera more time, but it's worth noting that he hit .144 in the majors. So there might be an edge there, but it's a small edge. Plus, it only shows that a) the organization didn't choose the right, nearly worthless catcher, but that hardly shows a Gardenhire bias. And

that Gardenhire is going to be anxious to give whoever comes up a lot of at-bats.

I'm not saying Gardy doesn't like Butera. I just don't see a lot of evidence that he's going to give him a dangerously large role.

[John Bonnes]

The sad part is we're even discussing this, the reality is this is about what the best thing to settle for is. It would be nice if the Twins could use that freebie on someone who could actually help the team. That's my point.

It's a fair point, and on the one hand, I'd love to have a real bench bat that I was confident in. That, to me, would be what this team could use right now. A veteran DHish guy.

 

But on the other hand, part of the issue is that the bench is already much better than it has been in the past. On most night, Gardy can turn to a decent choice or at least work things to have a matchup in his favor. Even now, I don't even mind the 13-man pitching staff. If anything, this team needs a lot more bullpen options than bench options. And that's because it doesn't look like a bad offensive team right now.

[Top Gun]

I would rather have the Twins carry a extra pitcher than a catcher. The downside is Mauer & Domit gets less at bats. Let's keep the bench fresh.

[Riverbrian]

P.S. While on 1500, Gardy said Willingham had agreed to be the emergency catcher, since he was once a catcher...

Gardy just solved the problem right there. In case of injury Willingham straps on the tools of ignorance, gets signs from the dugout, puts fingers down and catches for the one or two innings necessary. I know catcher is a unique position. It's not a long term solution, it's a finish the game solution and get to tomorrow. If you are worried about it. Prepare for it. Have the hammer catch some bullpens, take some time and work on his footwork. Coach him for the possibility. The best coaches in the world and A guy who has played baseball his whole life including some catcher. Jeez get him work in a ninth inning of a 10 0 blowout. It's preparation for something that might happen.

[gunnarthor]

I agree with most of John's posts. The last bench player isn't worth all this fuss.

[Bark's Lounge]

yeah, I don't get where people think that Gardy is a big Butera guy. They like his defense... they've been very upfront about the offense. I'm not in favor of a 3rd catcher, but I am in favor of Doumit in the lineup every day, and again, there aren't a lot of changes made in the game, so playing with a 3 man bench and a 3rd catcher, not a big deal.

 

And, if Butera was up the whole rest of the season, I can't imagine him getting more than an average of two plate appearances a week. That might be high. I think we're talking about late-inning defense and late game injury replacement. That puts him at like 60-70 plate appearances. Can't make much difference to a team's season in that few at bats.

 

Last year was a weird year that Twins fans need to get over. He got that number of plate appearances because Mauer was hurt and there wasn't a Doumit on the roster. That wouldn't happen again.

Thank you Father Christmas. Me is glad you is not want Drew play lots. Me as Twins fan need to get over last years poopy. Me want see good things happen. If Drew come plate want pinch hitter no one left on bench maybe Marquis will hit and we throw bucket behind home plate to catch pitches. Bucket is good hit I hear!

[jorgenswest]

Is the worry about losing the DH? How much better is Butera than a pitcher?

 

Is the desire to have a better defender at catcher on the bench? Maybe reasonable.

 

As long as Butera doesn't start, I would rather see him than Towles. If Mauer is out with injury, I'd rather see Towles.

[Bark's Lounge]

If you cannot hit .230 or above as a position player - NO GO!

This is not Earl Weaver's 1970's

The game of Major League Baseball cannot be inhibited by great field/no hit baseball players anymore. The game has changed. Offense needs to be tied to the fielding attributes of a position player as defense needs to be tied to an offensive player's hitting prowess, unless you are a DH. Mark Belanger is a relic of history, not an example of modern Major League Baseball.

[Montecore]

+1 (and not only the modern history, Ancient history as well)

 

and with Gardenhire's need to play him at least every 5 days when Pavano starts, you know that the team will have at least 200 futile PAs.

My cat can hit better than Butera and can work a few walks as well. Anybody but Butera.

[clutterheart]

 

Any criticism of the roster should be directed at Gardenhire and Ryan. Please give Butera a break!

why?

He is a terrible player I cant stand him.

He stinks

And he deserves to be constantly booed.

[shs_59]

I'm with Mr. Bonnes, lets be real fans. WE ALL KNEW Butera was going to see Big Lg. time , at some point. Well, unless Mr. Mauer turned into IRON Man 2.0 before our eyes this April.

 

Plus, Butera is hitting .290 (i know SSS) But still he's the Red Wings 3rd or 4th best hitter right now.... Seriously.

 

He won't be worse then Burroughs.

[Han Joelo]

Full strength Mauer catching 120 games plus Doumit catching 35 games plus Butera catching 7 games still equals the best catcher in baseball. Casilla is the only player in the starting lineup likely to get pinch hit for, and their will almost always be a Plouffe or a Parmalee or a Burroughs on the bench. Not worried about this at all.

[Bark's Lounge]

I'm with Mr. Bonnes, lets be real fans. WE ALL KNEW Butera was going to see Big Lg. time , at some point. Well, unless Mr. Mauer turned into IRON Man 2.0 before our eyes this April.

 

Plus, Butera is hitting .290 (i know SSS) But still he's the Red Wings 3rd or 4th best hitter right now.... Seriously.

 

He won't be worse then Burroughs.

Butera will be much, much, much, much worse of a hitter than Burroughs. It's like comparing Toby Gardenhire to Miguel Cabrera... much worse!

[Thrylos]

Full strength Mauer catching 120 games plus Doumit catching 35 games plus Butera catching 7 games still equals the best catcher in baseball.

If you are going to have a player on an MLB bench to only play in 7 games, you are better with an other arm in the pen... even a horrible arm that you can use only when you are down by a lot as a mopup pitcher.

[Fire Dan Gladden]

I believe we are all still living the Mike Redmond dream. For a few years we had arguably the best backup catcher in baseball and we were all spoiled. Perspective is the name of this discussion.

 

Can anybody guess what the numbers were for catchers last year? Let's narrow it down, go with primary backup catchers only. We are talking about the arguably worst offensive position in all of baseball. If the guy coud hit .250 while playing solid defense, he would probably be starting somewhere.

 

If Doumit is going to be a FT position player while seeing some time behind gthe plate, it makes sense to carry a third catcher. Considering Doumit's defensive liability, it makes sense that the 3rd cartcher be a defensive player. The overall concern would be how many at-bats this player gets.

 

The other part of this discussion that confuses me is the heighten passion involved. I would think that with all of the other issues the Twins currently have:

- Large number of injuries

- Liriano pitching horribly

- Starting pitching looking wretched as a whole

- Nobody in the minors to come up and adequately backfill, well, any position

 

The last spot on the bench does not seem like the best spot to be focusing our attention

[ScottyB]

Last year after the Twins traded Jim Thome, Gardy said having a one dimensional player on the bench really hamstrung him. I guess he just can't handle a good bench. We opened the season with one of the strongest Twins benches in years - Revere for speed and defense, Burroughs - for a professional left-handed bat who could play corner infield, Plouffe - a versatile right-handed bat who can play infield and outfield, and Hughes - another infielder with right-handed pop. I get that Revere needs to play every day and needs more seasoning and Thomas is an adequate replacement for him. But Butera for Hughes makes me want to throw up. Butera is just as one dimensional as Thome - only worse. Why would you ever use Butera to pinch hit off the bench. If Mauer or Doumit get injured during a game and you use Willingham for a few innings for one game and call up Butera for the next day it's no big deal. If MLB had a taxi squad of players available only in an extreme emergency you could carry an emergency catcher. But since they don't, leave Butera a plane ride away at Rochester.

[mnfireman]

Out of 108 major league C's to play last year, Drew Butera's avg. was tied for 93, the only C with at least 100 PA who was worse was Rene Rivera, who came in at 100. The Twins got a .160 BA out of two C's who combined for almost 360 PA's. And based on the advanced stats (RF, CERA, and CS%) Rivera outperformed Butera, albeit in a smaller time frame. Hopefully the team will not need either of them this year and Towles or Herrmann is ready to give Mauer his days off next year.

[Shane Wahl]

I guarantee you that even Danny Lehmann would out-perform Butera and Rivera for the Twins right now.