Talks with Bronson Arroyo "heating up"

[ashbury]

Well, yeah...but what about the "good" part? I assume that's relatively speaking?

 

 

He's no Hall of Famer, but in 2013 he finished 28th in the NL in ERA+. Back-of-the-envelope, that's about two pitchers per team like that. It was a typical season for him - 2012 was a bit better, 2011 was worse. It's not easy to be 100 ERA+ as a fulltime starter, year in and year out. If he's not "good", it's going to be extremely difficult to acquire someone who is.

[The Wise One]

If they are going to blow 2-3 years on a 37 year old, why not go after Burnett?

 

From Passan

16. A.J. Burnett, SP: On one hand, he led baseball in strikeout rate among starters and paired that with an absurd 56.5 percent groundball rate. On the other, he says he only wants to go back to Pittsburgh and doesn’t seem to mind killing his free-agent value. To each his own.

 

There have been multiple other reports saying the same thing on Burnett.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/4740670-74/burnett-pirates-season#axzz2fMCrLDBa

[PseudoSABR]

If I could 'like' your post, Hugh, I would (but alas that feature seems to have disappeared). Regardless, nice, even-handed take.

[TheLeviathan]

He's no Hall of Famer, but in 2013 he finished 28th in the NL in ERA+. Back-of-the-envelope, that's about two pitchers per team like that. It was a typical season for him - 2012 was a bit better, 2011 was worse. It's not easy to be 100 ERA+ as a fulltime starter, year in and year out. If he's not "good", it's going to be extremely difficult to acquire someone who is.

 

There was a face.

 

With a tongue.

[Trevor0333]

Can we sign both Arroyo & Hudson giving the team the oldest starting rotation in history?

 

Arroyo

Hudson

Corriea

Deduno

Albers

 

Ladies & gentleman, your 2014 MN Senior Twins!

[Trevor0333]

If your not going to go after an Ace, I am ok with going after these older guys who can stabilize the rotation a little while not having to go 4-5 years on mediocre pitchers.

 

They better hope some of these young pitchers start contributing or bust out. There's a lot riding on Meyer, May, & Gibson along with the next wave with Eades, Berrios, Thorpe, Stewart etc...

[The Wise One]

Spending money an Arroyo would at least signal to the baseball world the Twins are serious about spending to add talent. While he is a mid rotation guy, th is a step in the right direction. A much better option than Pelfrey

[Riverbrian]

If your not going to go after an Ace, I am ok with going after these older guys who can stabilize the rotation a little while not having to go 4-5 years on mediocre pitchers.

 

They better hope some of these young pitchers start contributing or bust out. There's a lot riding on Meyer, May, & Gibson along with the next wave with Eades, Berrios, Thorpe, Stewart etc...

 

Please forgive me... I'm sure you know... But I've been reading enough comments about the Twins not going for an ace.

 

So to everyone... In my opinion... There is not an ace available in this free agent class.

 

Tanaka maybe... I really don't know since his success was on a different continent.

After that it's Garza... I don't think he's an ace.

Kuroda is 39.

 

The Twins will have to settle for mid rotation or lower down types like Arroyo.

 

Trading for an ace will be impossible because our entire roster played themselves into low value and our prospects should be untouchable.

 

Just wanted to point that out for no reason... Carry on.

[Willihammer]

From Passan

16. A.J. Burnett, SP: On one hand, he led baseball in strikeout rate among starters and paired that with an absurd 56.5 percent groundball rate. On the other, he says he only wants to go back to Pittsburgh and doesn’t seem to mind killing his free-agent value. To each his own.

 

There have been multiple other reports saying the same thing on Burnett.

http://triblive.com/sports/pirates/4740670-74/burnett-pirates-season#axzz2fMCrLDBa

 

Yes, I wasn't aware Burnett had made his preference public. He's a special case.

 

Just last offseason the Cubs made several free agent pickups. So did the Brewers. So did Toronto. So did Pittsburgh. So did the Indians - all coming off lousy seasons. So when Terry Ryan says players won't play for a non-contender, I think that's a lousy excuse.

 

Here's a challenge to those who think money isn't the overriding factor: find a report from Milwaukee about Lohse turning down more money from other clubs to play in Milwaukee, like we now know was the case with Correia. Or for Michael Bourn and Nick Swisher - were they offered more money to play elsewhere like Willingham was?

[ashbury]

There was a face.

 

With a tongue.

 

So then, if it was tongue in cheek, you're going to have to dumb it down for me about 200 IQ points, to help me understand what your point actually was.

[TheLeviathan]

So then, if it was tongue in cheek, you're going to have to dumb it down for me about 200 IQ points, to help me understand what your point actually was.

 

To make a joke about the Twins usual free agent pitching targets and their current staff. See: Correia or Sidney Ponson. Or Jason Marquis.

 

I'm sure I violated some sort of policy and that's why you're bullying my attempt at fun out of the thread. My apologies for cracking a joke and including an obvious tongue-in-cheek smiley face with it.

[Bark's Lounge]

If the Twins sign Arroyo, I will not soil myself, I will not puke on the dinner table at Thanksgiving.

 

From afar, I have always liked Arroyo. Sure, he is not the dream come true signing, but like R. Brian has stated there is no ace on the FA landscape.

 

Obviously Bronson is a PTC pitcher, but I have always dug his persona and I think he would be a clubhouse differential kind of guy. Someone with a little flare and a character to a large degree... maybe it will rub off on a few of his teammates.

 

He will play his guitar and sing his teammates some Alt. Rock songs and he will pitch better than anyone we have had on this ball club in a few years. He is more promising to me than the Correia signing.

 

Thumbs up if it happens!

[The Wise One]

Yes, I wasn't aware Burnett had made his preference public. He's a special case.

 

Just last offseason the Cubs made several free agent pickups. So did the Brewers. So did Toronto. So did Pittsburgh. So did the Indians - all coming off lousy seasons. So when Terry Ryan says players won't play for a non-contender, I think that's a lousy excuse.

 

Here's a challenge to those who think money isn't the overriding factor: find a report from Milwaukee about Lohse turning down more money from other clubs to play in Milwaukee, like we now know was the case with Correia. Or for Michael Bourn and Nick Swisher - were they offered more money to play elsewhere like Willingham was?

 

1. So flirting with the division lead before faltering to a 79 win team makes you a lousy team? If this is the average fan opinion most teams are screwed.

2. Find me a report that said another team offered Bourn and Loshe a contract elsewhere of the same length.

3. Yes many teams made pickups. How many of them were highly ranked? All teams sign free agents. How many of them sign the top tier? KC had to trade for top level pitching talent to get to 86-76.

 

I suppose there is a large fan base out there that take everything literally so Ryan would need to spend a half a day defining every word said. There are players that would really help your club, there are players that were little better than replacements. Which type of player when people, not just GMs, are talking about when they say they should go out and get a free agent?

[goulik]

1. So flirting with the division lead before faltering to a 79 win team makes you a lousy team? If this is the average fan opinion most teams are screwed.

I think most people fall under this "average fan" description (fair weather fans?) and fail to look at above average as good. I enjoy being a Vikings fan because they are usually a good team but hate listening to people whine about how lousy they are when they are 9-7 or 10-6 but not real contenders! (Yes, I know this year they actually are lousy) Those are still good years, just not great!

I do want Super Bowls. I remember Fran Tarkington and the Purple People Eaters. I also watched or listened to every game in 87 and want that again but a true fan (abbreviation of Fanatic btw) should recognize rebuilding will take some average and above average years on the way to the World Series. The 87 core came up in 82?

none of this means we should be accepting of the past three years, they sucked to live through (so did the late 70s and early 80s) but let's be realistic. TR is still rebuilding Bill Smiths mess and he has done a nice job rebuilding the "system" but MLB results take time and I want to see more wins next year. +10 would be appropriate. Do I want and dream of more? Yes!! But give me at least that +10!!

[goulik]

P.S. To the Moderators/rulers of TD... Please bring back the Like Button.... please!!

[Guest USAFChief]

Please forgive me... I'm sure you know... But I've been reading enough comments about the Twins not going for an ace.

 

So to everyone... In my opinion... There is not an ace available in this free agent class.

 

Tanaka maybe... I really don't know since his success was on a different continent.

After that it's Garza... I don't think he's an ace.

Kuroda is 39.

 

The Twins will have to settle for mid rotation or lower down types like Arroyo.

 

Trading for an ace will be impossible because our entire roster played themselves into low value and our prospects should be untouchable.

 

Just wanted to point that out for no reason... Carry on.

I tend to agree about this year, RB.

 

My problems with this are:

 

Arroyo isn't the best that's available this year, and

 

When there are aces available, the Twins find reasons not to pursue them.

 

so I have a hard time giving them a pass this year.

[Brandon]

The twins have been using this logic for years now trying to clone Brad Radke and it has led to the glut of 4th/5th/AAAA starters that have made up the rotation. Velocity isn't everything but it sure helps and at this point, at least for me, it would be nice to see them attempt to pursue it instead of pitchibility.

 

Pelfry throws what 94. That didn't help much last year. Not saying I would reconsider resigning him but his ERA was over 5.00.

[Riverbrian]

So when Terry Ryan says players won't play for a non-contender, I think that's a lousy excuse.

 

Hey, Hammer... You know me... I'm not trying to be a prick... But can you point me to that quote. I hadn't seen it.

 

If Ryan used those words publicly... That would be a mistake of poor salesmanship on his part. And I tend to defend Ryan. I'll forgive him but a mistake nonetheless.

[Brandon]

Any pitcher that can give you 200+ innings at slightly better than league average on a short term contract is a no brainer to sign even if its an overpay. With a starting pitcher like that and our bullpen being way better than average, we are positioned to win more games than we loose with him as long as we get league average offense. Now we just need to duplicate that 5 times instead of wanting to pin it all on one expensive high risk all in pitcher. It doesn't matter if the pitcher is Arroyo or Santana or Pelfry (I doubt he will pitch much if any better than average but still)...if we can have a team era better than average for the 1500 inning season and score league average offense we should have a winning season. As far as Arroyo is concerned, if the Twins want him for 2 years maybe 13-14 million per to get it done or add a 3rd season or option that's reachable.....We add some one like Kazmir and that's 400 innings of 3.80-3.90 era for our rotation which is huge. someone should add up how much the 4th and 5th starters gave up last year and compare to what these 2 should give up and see how many runs we are likely to shave off of last seasons total all other being equal.

[Riverbrian]

I tend to agree about this year, RB.

 

My problems with this are:

 

Arroyo isn't the best that's available this year, and

 

When there are aces available, the Twins find reasons not to pursue them.

 

so I have a hard time giving them a pass this year.

 

Fair enough

 

Sometimes I get the impression that some TD'ers judge pitchers like Arroyo in comparison to Kershaw instead of judged in comparison to someone like Hughes.

 

Personally... I think Arroyo is an eye of the beholder thing. I like him better than Hughes.

 

However... I want to be clear... I like Wacha better than Arroyo.

[howieramone1406390264]

I tend to agree about this year, RB.

 

My problems with this are:

 

Arroyo isn't the best that's available this year, and

 

When there are aces available, the Twins find reasons not to pursue them.

 

so I have a hard time giving them a pass this year.

 

There are no more than 15 aces in all of baseball. Expand that to front of the rotation starters, which are 1's and 2's, you have maybe 40 total. Which ones did the Twins have a realistic chance to sign?

 

Note, Meyer projects as a 2, Stewart as an ace. Our chances for a 1-2 in the 2014 draft are very good. Ryan has been back 25 months.

[Guest USAFChief]

. Which ones did the Twins have a realistic chance to sign?

 

Note, Meyer projects as a 2, Stewart as an ace. Our chances for a 1-2 in the 2014 draft are very good. Ryan has been back 25 months.

Pretty much all of them?

 

The rest of your post has zero to do with the topic.

[gunnarthor]

Pretty much all of them?

 

The rest of your post has zero to do with the topic.

 

You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?

[Willihammer]

Hey, Hammer... You know me... I'm not trying to be a prick... But can you point me to that quote. I hadn't seen it.

 

If Ryan used those words publicly... That would be a mistake of poor salesmanship on his part. And I tend to defend Ryan. I'll forgive him but a mistake nonetheless.

 

http://www.startribune.com/sports/twins/231680191.html

 

“People look at us on paper and say, ‘Well, I have a lot of interest in playing for a contender,’ ” Ryan said Tuesday during a break in baseball’s annual general managers meetings here. “Now, do they consider us a contender? I suspect not.”

 

This is the man who also said Correia "left money on the table." Turns out Willingham did too.

 

So what I suspect is going on is the same thing this offseason. Ryan casting a wide lowball net, fishing for players with a unique reason to play in MN for a discount. And when he doesn't find any, the lip service we get is "they want to play for a contender." Well, if that's true, then I guess none of these guys will wind up in Chicago, Seattle, NYM, Houston, etc.

[gunnarthor]

What's amazing to me about this thread is that the Twins are considering signing a pitcher who has avg 202ip, 105 ERA+ and 3 WAR per season for the last couple years (while playing in a hitter's park) and people are complaining.

[Guest USAFChief]

You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?

were going to? No.

 

Was "unrealistic"? Also no.

 

The Twins put restrictions on themselves. That does not mean those self imposed restrictions make acting otherwise "unrealistic."

[notoriousgod71]

You really thought the Twins were going to outbid the Dodgers for Grienke or add another year (and money) to Sanchez's contract to get him away from Detroit? Or that would even have made sense?

 

I don't think anyone thought the Twins were going to outbid anyone and that's the problem. You are never going to be able to sign good players if you don't outbid everyone else.

[nicksaviking]

Fair enough

 

Sometimes I get the impression that some TD'ers judge pitchers like Arroyo in comparison to Kershaw instead of judged in comparison to someone like Hughes.

 

Personally... I think Arroyo is an eye of the beholder thing. I like him better than Hughes.

 

However... I want to be clear... I like Wacha better than Arroyo.

 

Arroyo is a good pitcher, and if the Twins signed him after signing a couple other guys who can miss bats it would be different. I shouldn't speak for others who are frustrated, but I think it boils down to one question: If the Twins are serious about getting a top 20 free agent pitcher, why are they targeting one of the two guys who can't manage an acceptable strikeout rate?

 

Missing bats is a huge problem for this club, why are they looking to add to that issue?

[gunnarthor]

were going to? No.

 

Was "unrealistic"? Also no.

 

The Twins put restrictions on themselves. That does not mean those self imposed restrictions make acting otherwise "unrealistic."

 

Why on earth did you quote "unrealistic"? In your mind, would signing Sanchez and/or Grienke have made sense for the 2012 Twins?

[JB_Iowa]

I have mixed feelings about this.

 

Of course I would like the Twins to sign pitchers with more upside the Arroyo. And, I also have the fear that signing Arroyo will be the Twins "big splash".

 

I also have fears about how Arroyo will age over the next two years -- and could not tolerate seeing a contract for longer than 2 years or with a team option for a 3rd with a reasonable buyout (this reminds me a bit of the re-signing of Pavano).

 

But, Arroyo does appear to me to provide the leadership and stability needed for ONE of the open spots in this pitching staff. I'm not a big Rick Anderson fan but even if I thought he was the best pitching coach in the world, I would still feel that the staff also needs a veteran leader that they can learn from. Someone who can show younger pitchers how to endure adversity, how to overcome challenges, the value of durability and going deep into games and, simply how to handle themselves and their emotions on the field.

 

I don't know much about Arroyo but am assuming that he has developed those characteristics and is willing to provide that type of leadership. If that's the case, I have no problem with his signing. I just don't want it to be the only splash the Twins make in the free agent pitching market.