Not Too Shabby

[CDog]

but you should pay attention to your own quotes. These are the OBP and GDP stats for the Twins over the last 7 years (your selection criteria not mine) and using AL only since that's where they play.

Yr. OBP GDP

2011 13 10

2010 4 1

2009 5 1

2008 9 7

2007 10 3

2006 5 3

2005 10 1

 

The Twins are clearly DP machines when it comes to offense, any argument otherwise just proves you're a shill for the Twins.

Thanks for the tip on paying attention to my own quotes...although I don't really know what it means. The post you quoted had two points. One is that TwinsFanLV decided to try to make a point by telling a lie. The Twins don't lead the league in double plays every year. Your list confirms that. I also didn't really say OBP precisely. But fine, I'll play along. Since you went and grabbed those numbers and made a claim about correlation, I'm sure you checked that out. But for those that haven't, yes in fact there is positive correlation between OBP and GDP. There's also positive correlation between GDP and runs and wins. Clearly the Twins could use this to start TRYING to hit into double plays and be division champs for sure. Right? You know that being correlated doesn't mean they rank order exactly the same, of course. One just TENDS to correspond to the other.

 

As for the accusatory "shill for the Twins" line, it seems unnecessary and out of place. I don't think the first part of the sentence is true (it's not clear at all), and none of the facts shown have even really helped clear that up. You've observed something that I have not. Saying it's clear doesn't make it so. My post that you quoted simply said in general that GDP's happen. And they often happen correlated with good things (hitting the ball hard, having a runner on with less than two out). It's not a "clutch" issue or whatever people make it out to be. And that has nothing to do with the Twins, it has to do with the truth. Maybe you meant I was a "shill for the Truth."

[TwinsFanLV]

Thanks for the tip on paying attention to my own quotes...although I don't really know what it means. The post you quoted had two points. One is that TwinsFanLV decided to try to make a point by telling a lie. The Twins don't lead the league in double plays every year. Your list confirms that. I also didn't really say OBP precisely. But fine, I'll play along. Since you went and grabbed those numbers and made a claim about correlation, I'm sure you checked that out. But for those that haven't, yes in fact there is positive correlation between OBP and GDP. There's also positive correlation between GDP and runs and wins. Clearly the Twins could use this to start TRYING to hit into double plays and be division champs for sure. Right? You know that being correlated doesn't mean they rank order exactly the same, of course. One just TENDS to correspond to the other.

 

As for the accusatory "shill for the Twins" line, it seems unnecessary and out of place. I don't think the first part of the sentence is true (it's not clear at all), and none of the facts shown have even really helped clear that up. You've observed something that I have not. Saying it's clear doesn't make it so. My post that you quoted simply said in general that GDP's happen. And they often happen correlated with good things (hitting the ball hard, having a runner on with less than two out). It's not a "clutch" issue or whatever people make it out to be. And that has nothing to do with the Twins, it has to do with the truth. Maybe you meant I was a "shill for the Truth."

CDOG:

 

Don't care to be called a liar. Don't care for your smug implication that I "pretend to know" something. Don't care to do exhaustive research. Expressing my opinion, no more, no less. Please learn some manners or exercise some common courtesy.

[TwinsFanLV]

Furthermore, I notice that you employ sarcasm as a literary device in your posts, but evidently are unable to recognize it in the posts of others. Perhaps some of the time used in your exhaustive research might be better used reading posts a second or third time before name calling or belittling others. Have a great day!

[whydidnt]

As for the accusatory "shill for the Twins" line, it seems unnecessary and out of place. I don't think the first part of the sentence is true (it's not clear at all), and none of the facts shown have even really helped clear that up. You've observed something that I have not. Saying it's clear doesn't make it so. My post that you quoted simply said in general that GDP's happen. And they often happen correlated with good things (hitting the ball hard, having a runner on with less than two out). It's not a "clutch" issue or whatever people make it out to be. And that has nothing to do with the Twins, it has to do with the truth. Maybe you meant I was a "shill for the Truth."

I hate playing word games with someone who is obviously better at it than me, but when you say "there's the other issue that the teams that do hit into a lot are teams that put a lot of people on base (amazing, right!?!?)" I take that to mean putting guys on base, or OBP. My mistake, sorry for confusing your words once again. CDog, I have know idea who you are, what your background is, etc. someday you and I might meet and enjoy a beverage together, but to be honest your posts here are difficult for me to understand, much as my posts might be difficult for you to understand since I don't post clearly or even understand big words like correlation. Being as that's the case perhaps you can just ignore my posts from now on. I obviously am not schooled enough to post in a manner elegant enough for you to understand. As for shill, I do understand what that means, you can look it up as well.

[CDog]

I hate playing word games with someone who is obviously better at it than me, but when you say "there's the other issue that the teams that do hit into a lot are teams that put a lot of people on base (amazing, right!?!?)" I take that to mean putting guys on base, or OBP. My mistake, sorry for confusing your words once again. CDog, I have know idea who you are, what your background is, etc. someday you and I might meet and enjoy a beverage together, but to be honest your posts here are difficult for me to understand, much as my posts might be difficult for you to understand since I don't post clearly or even understand big words like correlation. Being as that's the case perhaps you can just ignore my posts from now on. I obviously am not schooled enough to post in a manner elegant enough for you to understand. As for shill, I do understand what that means, you can look it up as well.

You used correlated, so I responded to that. As for OBP vs guys on base, we're agreeing there. My point in saying I wasn't speaking technically of OBP is that I was making a more general point in the post in question. I wasn't trying to make a statistical point. Once we "went there," then I was. And I am glad we both know what shill means, but I don't see how it applies to me just because we disagree.

[CDog]

CDOG:

 

Don't care to be called a liar. Don't care for your smug implication that I "pretend to know" something. Don't care to do exhaustive research. Expressing my opinion, no more, no less. Please learn some manners or exercise some common courtesy.

The Twins leading or not leading the league in double plays "EVERY year" is not an opinion.

[TwinsFanLV]

The Twins leading or not leading the league in double plays "EVERY year" is not an opinion.

It's called hyperbole. Like Casey always said, "You can look it up".

 

Do you and Mauer share the same bicycle lock?

[Ultima Ratio]

If you want and enjoy petulant remarks, keep to the epsn boards. Please save it for blowhard fans of other teams, if you must.

[Riverbrian]

Your use of statistics is impressive, but you forgot some key numbers in which the Twins manage to lead the league EVERY yeay:

 

6-4-3

4-6-3

5-4-3

3-6-3

 

Until Mauer changes the combinmation on his bicycle lock, or learns to bunt, the Twins will never be a serious offensive threat.

 

Gardenhire could help by sending the runner(s) on base, with Mauer batting, more often

I thought this post was funny

[Riverbrian]

Not to step on Mark Twain's toes, but I'd say it would be better to use statistics than lies. Twins were 14th in GDP last year. 1st the year before that and did not lead the league before that until 2005. Of course...there's the other issue that the teams that do hit into a lot are teams that put a lot of people on base (amazing, right!?!?), so if they did lead the league every year, it wouldn't mean what you think it means. Or pretend to think it means.

I thought this post was spot on

[Riverbrian]

GDIP Twins / LG AVG (Runs per game for Twins)

2011 115/117 (3.82)

2010 159/124 (4.82)

2009 147/127 (5.01)

2008 142/129 (5.09)

2007 149/133 (4.43)

2006 163/132 (4.94)

2005 155/130 (4.25)

2004 130/126 (4.81)

2003 139/128 (4.94)

2002 121/128 (4.77)

 

As you can see in the Gardy era, they have grounded into more than league average double plays. What you can also see is that's had basically no impact on their run production. The only year they hit into more DP than games played they averaged nearly 5 runs a game. The year they hit into the fewest? Also the lowest offensive number in Gardy-era Twins. Double plays are annoying, and impact the game, but they are not really an indicator of offensive futility. League leader in GDIP last year: Adrian Gonzalez, Miguel Cabrera and David Ortiz. (ETA: Torii was tied with Cabrera and Ortiz)

I thought this post was statistical

[Riverbrian]

Yep, that's what we need, our best hitter bunting from the 3 hole, no wonder the Twins are losing! It would have been much better last night if Joe had bunted Carroll to 3rd and let Morneau drive him in. That way we could have scored 2 runs instead of 3.

 

I usually defend Gardy but now I can see why so many people want him fired.

I thought this post was Canadian

[Riverbrian]

The glass half full guys would note that the Twins are now 4-5 versus 3 90+ win teams, and they could easily be 6-3 if they hadn't stranded the world in Game 2 or Perkins had fessed up about his arm prior to blowing that 3rd game versus the Angels.

 

Of cours,e they could be 4-12 by this time next week. I wouldn't be shocked if they were.

I thought this post was adminstrative

[Riverbrian]

Mattsaari may have better details about the meaning of this, but you should pay attention to your own quotes. These are the OBP and GDP stats for the Twins over the last 7 years (your selection criteria not mine) and using AL only since that's where they play.

Yr. OBP GDP

2011 13 10

2010 4 1

2009 5 1

2008 9 7

2007 10 3

2006 5 3

2005 10 1

 

So the Twins have let the league in GIDP 3 of the last 7 years, they have been in the top 1/2 of the league in all but 1 of those years, and have only been in the top of the league in OBP 3 of the 7 years, NEVER finishing higher in OBP than GIDP in the entire time. There maybe some correlation between OBP and GDP, but it's not as clear as implied. The Twins are clearly DP machines when it comes to offense, any argument otherwise just proves you're a shill for the Twins. There is a lot more that goes into scoring runs than OBP an GDP though. I think it's save to say getting on base is a lot more important than not grounding into DPs as far as that goes.

Further to mattsaari's point though: Using guys like Gonzalez and Cabrera aren't great comparables, the last I checked we didn't have anyone with their power potential on our team, their value is obviously enhanced by their power. I'm not statisically inclined enough to be able to dig deep enough to see if your numbers have any meaning since the number of runs the Twins scored would have to be compared to the league average to see if the GIDP had any impact on production. I think the fact that they typically hit into more DPs than average, but aren't on base more than average tends to support your assumption though. Enough number crunching for me for now, though, the game's about to start!

I thought this post was a different point of view

[Ultima Ratio]

I thought this post was adminstrative

This thread appears thought provoking for you... is there a culmination or analysis rendered?

[Riverbrian]

GIDP is a silly way to judge a team. It's a meaningless stat when looked at in isolation.

 

St. Louis led the league in that category last year with 169. That's 15 more than the next closest team and 54 more than the Twins.

 

But their season didn't turn out too badly, did it?

I thought this post was thought provoking

[Riverbrian]

Double Plays... The pitchers best friend are a consequnce of putting the ball in play... Part of the game... I'm sure someone will prove me statistically wrong... But... you can factor in OBP and factor in Contract rate and I'm guessing(i'm too lazy to look it up) that it will get you closer to explaining GIDP for the year and yet still not explain it. Baseball is crazy that way.

 

They happen... This is why you gotta cash in... When the cash is in scoring position. Cuz... Next Inning you could be a double play waiting to happen.

I thought this post raised my posting number by one

[Riverbrian]

After that the walls started to come down and I was thinking that the discussion was interesting up until that point... But I think too much.

 

It's just a discussion.

[Riverbrian]

This thread appears thought provoking for you... is there a culmination or analysis rendered?

Yeah... Analysis Rendered is this. If you think about it... Things sometimes get too serious. Enjoy the Smart posts... The Dumb Posts and the posts in between. The pointless and the pointfull? I saw no reason for emotion. They were just opinions and posts.

[twinsnorth49]

It's called hyperbole. Like Casey always said, "You can look it up".

 

Do you and Mauer share the same bicycle lock?

Why are we talking about Joe Mauer's bicycle lock?................oh right the 6-4-3, 4-6-3 thing, do you really think that's the combination? That's not very imaginative. I think he's a key guy myself.

 

I wonder if he rides his bike to Target field? Not very safe in Downtown traffic,especially with his injury history.

 

 

You'd think for 23 million a year he wouldn't have to ride his bike very much and even so he would probably have a pretty good lock, like made of some kind of Joe Mauer super steel or something.

 

What is this thread about again? Oh yes double plays and Joe Mauer learning to bunt so the Twins can win the pennant. The Twins turned a few double plays tonight, do those come off the total they are trying to hit into so they can lose or do 1-6-3, 1-4-3 double plays not count because they aren't Joe Mauers' bicycle lock combination, is that right? I'm trying to follow along, although I have been drinking, mainly to help me forget about this thread.

 

This is all my hyperbolic opinion, but it also could be true.

[ashbury]

I thought this post raised my posting number by one

Yes, I kind of figured that out about you some time ago.