Article on Terry Ryan

[twinsfan34]

The Baltimore Orioles (2011-2012), Cleveland Indians (2012-2013), Pittsburgh Pirates (2011-2013), Boston Red Sox (2012-2013; ok they are not mid-market), Detroit Tigers (2005-2006) will disagree.

 

Lots and lots of examples of rebuilding in a season or two, but they all required drastic change of FO and field management personnel. If you don't do that, you cannot rebuild in 1-2 years. That simple.

 

Changing the FO and field management personnel.

 

1. I think the "field management personnel" can affect a team - 5-10 wins.

 

2. The FO has little to nothing to do with the team put on the field the first 3 years with the team. Most of the players on the 25 man roster will be from the previous GM's activities. Around year 4 (this will be Terry Ryan's 3rd year at the controls - signed late 2011, in charge of 2012 and 2013 activities) you see the team (more than half it's players) as directly there by actions of the FO.

[Alex]

 

2. The FO has little to nothing to do with the team put on the field the first 3 years with the team. Most of the players on the 25 man roster will be from the previous GM's activities. Around year 4 (this will be Terry Ryan's 3rd year at the controls - signed late 2011, in charge of 2012 and 2013 activities) you see the team (more than half it's players) as directly there by actions of the FO.

 

Sorry, but the third year he had the reins for the offseason (at Target Field) and was making decisions (or not) that affected the roster. Some good, some bad, and some good then but bad now: Willingham, Doumit, Bourton, Carrol, re-signing Capps (which, btw, cost us an opportunity for a draft pick), and promoting Dozier are just off the top of my head.

 

Heck he signed the biggest FA contract ever for the organization!

[Alex]

Yes the current team resources could be compared to the Giants. Some of the issues that led to the current state can be tied to the time less than 5 years ago when they were not on an equall footing.

 

Well, if you think the Twins are still suffering lingering effects from being a low-market team, that's fair.

 

I was making a point to those who accept that the Twins are a mid-market team but also saying their struggles are "normal" for mid-market teams.

 

If you want to say Twins are worse off than the Cardinals and Giants because they're still "in recovery" that's a different discussion, one I'd disagree with off hand, but a different one nonetheless.

[twinsfan34]

Sorry, but the third year he had the reins for the offseason and was making decisions (or not) that affected the roster. Some good, some bad, and some good then but bad now: Willingham, Doumit, Bourton, Carrol, re-signing Capps (which, btw, cost us an opportunity for a draft pick), and promoting Dozier are just off the top of my head.

 

Heck he signed the biggest FA contract ever for the organization!

 

3rd year? Use numbers...like 2011...2012...etc

[twinsfan34]

Sorry, but the third year he had the reins for the offseason and was making decisions (or not) that affected the roster. Some good, some bad, and some good then but bad now: Willingham, Doumit, Bourton, Carrol, re-signing Capps (which, btw, cost us an opportunity for a draft pick), and promoting Dozier are just off the top of my head.

 

Heck he signed the biggest FA contract ever for the organization!

 

Terry Ryan was signed on November 7, 2011.

 

Thus:

He did not sign any players for the 2011 season.

He did not participate in the 2011 MLB June Draft.

The World Series had completed.

 

So that puts him in charge of 2012 and 2013. I believe total comes to two seasons, not three​ where he resides over the FA, Draft, and in-season activities. All three of which he missed for the 2011 season.

[cmathewson]

I read stuff in this article I had not heard him say before. He did say that if a scout told him to overpay for a guy, he would. That belies the impression that he won't overpay for anything. He also reiterated that he won't spend money if the market is weak. But I think the market is stronger this year, so perhaps he'll be more active. We can only hope.

 

Not that I expect a Baltimore-like turnaround next year, because starting pitching is only one of a handful of issues that need to get resolved, albeit the most glaring one. But I have some hope that a four-year deal will make success in more likely when Buxton, Sano, Meyer, and others are ready.

[gunnarthor]

Well, if you think the Twins are still suffering lingering effects from being a low-market team, that's fair.

 

I was making a point to those who accept that the Twins are a mid-market team but also saying their struggles are "normal" for mid-market teams.

 

If you want to say Twins are worse off than the Cardinals and Giants because they're still "in recovery" that's a different discussion, one I'd disagree with off hand, but a different one nonetheless.

 

Ignoring a lot of other stuff, I'm not sure how you determined the Twins were similar in payroll potential to the Giants. The Giants have usually been a top 10 payroll team. In 2010, the teams within 5m to the Twins in salary were the White Sox, Dodgers (but ownership was stealing their money), Mets (Ponzi scheme), Cubs and Brewers. 2011, our most expensive team was still 6m lower than #8 team - the Giants. And people still claim we can have a 110m or so payroll, which, this year, would put us 30m behind SF and close to teams like the Reds and Nats in 13th place. And the Reds have managed 8 winning seasons in the last 20 and the Nats are even worse.

[Alex]

Terry Ryan was signed on November 7, 2011.

 

Thus:

He did not sign any players for the 2011 season.

He did not participate in the 2011 MLB June Draft.

The World Series had completed.

 

So that puts him in charge of 2012 and 2013. I believe total comes to two seasons, not three​ where he resides over the FA, Draft, and in-season activities. All three of which he missed for the 2011 season.

 

 

To be fair, I was referring to your use of "three years" which I thought referred to the opening three years of Target Field, and the year I was talking about should be clear based on the free agents. Regardless, he had an immediate impact on the 2012 roster, so arguing the roster was out of his control just isn't quite true.

[Alex]

Ignoring a lot of other stuff, I'm not sure how you determined the Twins were similar in payroll potential to the Giants. The Giants have usually been a top 10 payroll team. In 2010, the teams within 5m to the Twins in salary were the White Sox, Dodgers (but ownership was stealing their money), Mets (Ponzi scheme), Cubs and Brewers. 2011, our most expensive team was still 6m lower than #8 team - the Giants. And people still claim we can have a 110m or so payroll, which, this year, would put us 30m behind SF and close to teams like the Reds and Nats in 13th place. And the Reds have managed 8 winning seasons in the last 20 and the Nats are even worse.

 

Again, though the Reds didn't bottom out like the Twins have. Fair point on San Fran. I was going based off a comparison, perhaps in another thread or article that someone else made of teams that we should emulate.

 

All I was attempting was to show that the seasons the Twins have gone through are not necessary to rebuild, and I think that's pretty clear that they don't. Sure, some teams do, and some teams are just poorly run organizations, but I'd argue that the almost complete inaction of the front office is why the Twins are where they are and not some sort of magical baseball cycle.

[gunnarthor]

All I was attempting was to show that the seasons the Twins have gone through are not necessary to rebuild, and I think that's pretty clear that they don't. Sure, some teams do, and some teams are just poorly run organizations, but I'd argue that the almost complete inaction of the front office is why the Twins are where they are and not some sort of magical baseball cycle.

 

It's not a big mystery why the Twins crashed and burned. Morneau's career was dramatically changed by injury. Span, Nathan and Mauer less so. Baker got hurt. Young and Liriano failed to develop off of strong 2010 seasons. Cuddy got old. Garza and Ramos were traded away in win now trades and draft picks either took longer than expected time to develop, either b/c of injuries or slow progress (Wimmers, Gibson, Hicks) or didn't develop (Plouffe/Parm). Nishi sorta sucked. A bunch of other players just got old.

 

There's nothing surprising about this. Reusse predicted it before it happened. Teams get old and if they also get hurt, they collapse. Sure, not every team loses 96 games when it happens but sometimes they also have outside factors (such as another 100 loss team in their division or surprising health) that help them. I don't really care about how many losses a team has (so long as it isn't quite ridiculous) in a season but how many seasons will it take them to turn it around. I'd rather the Twins lose 96 4x and start winning then going through a 9 year death march like the Reds did.

[Alex]

 

There's nothing surprising about this. Reusse predicted it before it happened. Teams get old and if they also get hurt, they collapse. Sure, not every team loses 96 games when it happens but sometimes they also have outside factors (such as another 100 loss team in their division or surprising health) that help them. I don't really care about how many losses a team has (so long as it isn't quite ridiculous) in a season but how many seasons will it take them to turn it around. I'd rather the Twins lose 96 4x and start winning then going through a 9 year death march like the Reds did.

 

If you think rebuilding requires losing horribly, that's fine. I don't think it does. Now, maybe for the Twins, because of their clear struggles to evaluate and develop late first round talent in the recent years it is easier, but that's another problem. As for your litany of reasons why the Twins crashed, I don't think poor decisions and development from previous management excuse current management from the same, or at least for doing very little.

 

The fact that I think you can both field at least a mildly competitive team and rebuild at the same time, is one of my frustrations with the last two years. Nothing was done to improve key holes in the organization on the major league team while new holes were actually created, and it sure doesn't seem like much will be done next year. I'm willing to give a pass on 2011 and some aspects of 2012, but I think 2013 was a complete mishandling and don't look forward to 2014, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

If the Twins turn it around by 2015/16, it won't be because they lost 96 plus games three or four seasons in a row. In fact, it will have very little to do with that. It will be mostly because they had success with international talent signed prior to those years, trades, and any free agent signings. Buxton looks like he will play a role but it's hard to say with the other top picks in that timeframe.

[big dog]

Reusse predicted it before it happened.

 

Reusse's like the guy who predicted 15 of the last 4 stock market crashes. Him being right once in a while is just proof of the law of large numbers.

[gunnarthor]

 

The fact that I think you can both field at least a mildly competitive team and rebuild at the same time, is one of my frustrations with the last two years. Nothing was done to improve key holes in the organization on the major league team while new holes were actually created, and it sure doesn't seem like much will be done next year. I'm willing to give a pass on 2011 and some aspects of 2012, but I think 2013 was a complete mishandling and don't look forward to 2014, but I hope I'm wrong.

 

 

A lot to go over but I'll just point out that this is exactly what Ryan has done before. He rebuilt the 2002-2004 playoff Twins into the 2006 squad on the fly while changing key components. The 2+ WAR players on 2004 were Santana, Radke, Silva, Nathan, Ford, Koskie, Rincon and Hunter. The 06 squad was built around Santana Liriano, Nathan, Mauer, Morneau, Punto, Bartlett, Cuddyer, Castillo, Reyes and Hunter.

 

The team Ryan took over wasn't possible to make a quick fix out of. The failures of this years team was mostly because veterans like Morneau, Willingham, Plouffe, Doumit and even Mauer a bit either failed to hit, got hurt or both. If you think there was a quick fix to last years team, feel free to tell us what it was. But signing Dempster, Edwin Jackson and/or Brandon McCarthy wasn't it.

[Alex]

A lot to go over but I'll just point out that this is exactly what Ryan has done before. He rebuilt the 2002-2004 playoff Twins into the 2006 squad on the fly while changing key components. The 2+ WAR players on 2004 were Santana, Radke, Silva, Nathan, Ford, Koskie, Rincon and Hunter. The 06 squad was built around Santana Liriano, Nathan, Mauer, Morneau, Punto, Bartlett, Cuddyer, Castillo, Reyes and Hunter.

 

The team Ryan took over wasn't possible to make a quick fix out of. The failures of this years team was mostly because veterans like Morneau, Willingham, Plouffe, Doumit and even Mauer a bit either failed to hit, got hurt or both. If you think there was a quick fix to last years team, feel free to tell us what it was. But signing Dempster, Edwin Jackson and/or Brandon McCarthy wasn't it.

 

For whatever reason you have the impression I think everything was fixable, but I don't. You seem to think I have the impression that the team could be competing for the division this year but that isn't it at all. I'm frustrated that people are giving Ryan a complete pass and making excuses on where the major league team was this season as natural or unavoidable.

 

I'm not looking for a quick fix, even if by "fix" we mean an above .500 team. I'm looking at least for decisions that improve the team. I appreciate and understand where he started, but so little was done that we're exactly where we were at this time last offseason. I don't think the expectation of that is too much to ask and I'm certainly not willing to make the excuses you are for him about this season's team: His ability to acquire serviceable starting pitching and starting Aaron Hicks were fully within his responsibility.

 

At this point I'm going to leave it here because we either disagree on key points, or the the focus keeps changing.

[gunnarthor]

 

I'm not looking for a quick fix, even if by "fix" we mean an above .500 team. I'm looking at least for decisions that improve the team. I appreciate and understand where he started, but so little was done that we're exactly where we were at this time last offseason. I don't think the expectation of that is too much to ask and I'm certainly not willing to make the excuses you are for him about this season's team: His ability to acquire serviceable starting pitching and starting Aaron Hicks were fully within his responsibility.

 

I honestly don't understand where you are coming from. Starting Hicks does improve the team in the long run. He needs that experience. Trading Span and Revere away improves the club in the long run. The starting pitching market was horrific and Correia ended up being one of the few good signings.

 

One of the big problems I have with people ripping on Ryan this year is that no one can suggest a realistic better solution than to do what they are doing.

[RodneyKline]

What Ryan has failed on is that he has let all the Twins good players leave to star on other teams and play in the All Star game with another teams hat on. Teams that are perennial contenders like the Braves make sure to have a great farm system and to keep their good players until they have a better player to take their place. They don't let their good players leave and hope that a prospect might take over like Ryan did with CF last year for example.

[old nurse]

For whatever reason you have the impression I think everything was fixable, but I don't. You seem to think I have the impression that the team could be competing for the division this year but that isn't it at all. I'm frustrated that people are giving Ryan a complete pass and making excuses on where the major league team was this season as natural or unavoidable.

 

I'm not looking for a quick fix, even if by "fix" we mean an above .500 team. I'm looking at least for decisions that improve the team. I appreciate and understand where he started, but so little was done that we're exactly where we were at this time last offseason. I don't think the expectation of that is too much to ask and I'm certainly not willing to make the excuses you are for him about this season's team: His ability to acquire serviceable starting pitching and starting Aaron Hicks were fully within his responsibility.

 

At this point I'm going to leave it here because we either disagree on key points, or the the focus keeps changing.

 

Looking for decisions that would improve the team. Short term fixes were not done. The 3 ways to add players are prospects coming up, to trade and free agents. The near ready mlb prospects were brought up and didn't do much. There was not an excess of them so that you could trade one or two for a capable player in an area of need or other GMs had a clue as to their performance capabilities and did not offer much in trades. What he traded for was not near mlb ready players so the current team was not added to in that fashion. Will Myer in May be better pitchers in 2 years than the 4th starter off a team? I would think that is what Ryan thinks. It doesn't help this year, but it helps future years. That leaves free agents. minimally better players than the ones you have will only make you minimally better. Look what was out there to be had in the areas where the Twins had needs. They could have got players minimally better. There were a couple that could have been useful that Ryan missed on, but not a whole lot. I do not think many are giving him a free pass as much as it is the viewpoint there wasn't a whole lot that could have been done. The trades not working would take away the pass