Article: Message to Twins: Accountability Means Change

[ashbury]

Dusty Baker reportedly out as Reds manager despite making the playoffs the last two seasons. He didn't win a game. I'd love for him to come over here and "ruin" some of our arms so I never have to see Diamond, Correia, Pelfrey, Hendricks, Devries again.

 

Baker managing the Twins is an interesting thought. I'll start a separate thread about that.

[ashbury]

A shortcut gets you to your destination faster.......how is that bad?

 

Come visit me out here in the mountain West. I'll show you some shortcuts that do not get you to your destination faster.

[twinsnorth49]

I'd call being dismissive and borderline condescending towards thoughtful, legitimate questions of your organization arrogant, it's as if TR is somehow above reproach.

 

We all deserve more than flippant answers from the man most responsible for expecting us to keep supporting this mess. The "I'm committed to righting this ship" rhetoric is getting a bit old, especially after 291 losses the past 3 years, details TR, some details please?

[ThePuck]

I'd call being dismissive and borderline condescending towards thoughtful, legitimate questions of your organization arrogant, it's as if TR is somehow above reproach.

 

We all deserve more than flippant answers from the man most responsible for expecting us to keep supporting this mess. The "I'm committed to righting this ship" rhetoric is getting a bit old, especially after 291 losses the past 3 years, details TR, some details please?

 

It's the same way Gardy is with the media on those few occasions when a reporter has the stones to question his in-game strategy...

[Zarathustra]

This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.

 

What has challenged the endurance of my fandom most during this stretch (and I was a 162+ game watcher/listener consistently from '02 - '10, good and bad) relates to an accountability not being addressed here directly. It seems the collective memory has grown very short when it comes to our favorite team's new home.

 

This team was right there in '06, right on the cusp of a real run in the playoffs after a series of progressing seasons, more or less. What we were told was that, until the tax payers of MN approved a stadium, the team was doomed to failure. In other words the OWNERSHIP wasn't in a position to succeed without a stadium. This wasn't implicit - these were the drums beat time and time again. BUILD IT AND THE TWINS WILL COMPETE!

 

So, let's recap what happened:

 

Target Field (which I love, BTW) Cost: $522M; Ownership Share = $125M; MN Share = $397M

 

Player Payroll 2006: $63.3M...2010: $97.6M 2011: $113.2M 2012: $100.4M 2013: $82M (Prospectus)

 

Revenue 2006: $114M...2010: $162M 2011: $213M (Forbes)

 

Franchise Value 2006: $216M 2011: $490M (Forbes)

 

As far as I'm concerned, the ownership made a public contract when they entered into the stadium agreement with the taxpayers of Minnesota. They explicitly stated they would increase payroll (which they did, albeit at an alarmingly decreasing rate) and they expressed repeatedly that the stadium would give them the flexibility to push the franchise forward. Where is the evidence? They were already winning division titles, batting titles and Cy Youngs before Target Field. They breached the contract and need to be held accountable.

 

How do we hold those off the field accountable for what HASN'T happened on the field?

[notoriousgod71]

Baker managing the Twins is an interesting thought. I'll start a separate thread about that.

 

Just to be clear I do not want this to happen. I think he is pretty similar to Gardy in that he loves his crappy veterans, seems to have a "set" lineup by position (CF leadoff, MI bat second), and his postseason "success" is nearly as awful as Gardy. Also I am pretty sure I would have called for his firing the moment he announced Salomon Torres was starting Game 162.

[twinsnorth49]

This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.

 

What has challenged the endurance of my fandom most during this stretch (and I was a 162+ game watcher/listener consistently from '02 - '10, good and bad) relates to an accountability not being addressed here directly. It seems the collective memory has grown very short when it comes to our favorite team's new home.

 

This team was right there in '06, right on the cusp of a real run in the playoffs after a series of progressing seasons, more or less. What we were told was that, until the tax payers of MN approved a stadium, the team was doomed to failure. In other words the OWNERSHIP wasn't in a position to succeed without a stadium. This wasn't implicit - these were the drums beat time and time again. BUILD IT AND THE TWINS WILL COMPETE!

 

So, let's recap what happened:

 

Target Field (which I love, BTW) Cost: $522M; Ownership Share = $125M; MN Share = $397M

 

Player Payroll 2006: $63.3M...2010: $97.6M 2011: $113.2M 2012: $100.4M 2013: $82M (Prospectus)

 

Revenue 2006: $114M...2010: $162M 2011: $213M (Forbes)

 

Franchise Value 2006: $216M 2011: $490M (Forbes)

 

As far as I'm concerned, the ownership made a public contract when they entered into the stadium agreement with the taxpayers of Minnesota. They explicitly stated they would increase payroll (which they did, albeit at an alarmingly decreasing rate) and they expressed repeatedly that the stadium would give them the flexibility to push the franchise forward. Where is the evidence? They were already winning division titles, batting titles and Cy Youngs before Target Field. They breached the contract and need to be held accountable.

 

How do we hold those off the field accountable for what HASN'T happened on the field?

 

What a great first post, welcome.

[TheLeviathan]

What a great first post, welcome.

 

Almost as awesome as the name.

[drivlikejehu]

His points are undeniable, as is the fact that, legally, what the Twins are doing constitutes fraud (receiving goods in exchange for false promises).

[Nick Nelson]

OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

[twinsnorth49]

Almost as awesome as the name.

 

He does speak the truth...

[Fatt Crapps]

Still waiting for someone to explain how signing a legit FA this year is a bad idea......

 

 

Well, signing Ellsbury would certainly be a bad idea.

[ThePuck]

OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

 

Team didn't have much of a choice but to sign him...not really...not with the story they sold to the public to get the new ballpark. Not sign the local boy done great? No way that signing doesn't happen. It was a good business decision for many reasons...between the PR, the on-field production, ticket sales (and everything that comes with it), etc...

 

On top of that, it wasn't Ryan who signed him. Ryan told us the Willingham signing was a big money signing...doing the Mauer contract might have killed him...or given him a better perspective on what quality FA (or pending FA) players truly cost.

[Mike Sixel]

the issue isn't the total payroll.....but that only $49MM was spent on 24+ players....

[Zarathustra]

The original post was already too long, so I stopped short on a few things. Now that it has some daylight in between posts, I hope you'll humor my adding a bit more:

 

1) I mentioned watching/listening to 162+ games each season during the 02-10 run. I'm not fair weather. Heading into the 2010 playoffs (homefield against the Yanks remember?), I made a commitment that if the Twins didn't make it past the first round THIS time, I would significantly reduce my investment in this team until they gave me reason to do otherwise. My participation has declined, in kind, since.

 

And why shouldn't it for all of us? I support the institution, win or lose, not the ownership and the flagging performance of the product they disingenuously trot out.

 

2) The argument of the breached public contract holds outside of the vacuum of team performance. In other words, if the economic return to the tax payers could be demonstrated to be a net profit on their stadium investment (an impossible to prove metric either way), it doesn't matter. If the Pohlads had ended up losing money after the stadium was built (a distinct impossibility), it doesn't matter. The entire exercise of stadium building was predicated on the idea that the it would bring added revenue, spending, and results - a change on the field come October from what we had been experiencing.

 

Have we all forgotten this? That was the mantra when Torii walked, when Santana leaving was a foregone conclusion, and when all the inside and outside free agents came and went unsigned since. Money doesn't buy championships, but better (read: often costlier) players could have benefited this team throughout.

 

3) When money was spent ('10 and '11), it wasn't spent wisely. Accountability is, again, the thread. Bill Smith is out, but we've been told that TR was instrumental in many moves/non-moves while not GM. Also, Gardy had no influence on the composition of these teams? The reason these non-diamond-nine individuals are also well compensated is because they should have high standards of performance. How have they performed relative to the public contract?

 

Thanks for hearing me out. From a ND native, MN resident through those fat years, now a DC resident, I can't wait for things to turn around for our team. But to do so will take some measure of real accountability. Seriously, Go Twins.

[nicksaviking]

This thread is about accountability. There are phases being thrown around, as has been the norm these last three painful seasons, such as 'steady hand', 'short-cut', 'panic', et al, and while they certainly relate directly to the debate about how best to remedy the downward spiral on the field, they don't necessarily address a key aspect of accountability away from it.

 

Almost as awesome as the name.

 

 

 

By the way, I think I should change my avatar. Having it makes me more and more surly.

 

Also, for the record, I am not a Big Ten college professor. I did teach at Purdue as a grad student, but I am now employed at the community college in town. Servicing the poor and whatnot. Teaching Nietzsche to poor people . . .

 

Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

[drivlikejehu]

OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

 

In fairness, Ryan has flat-out said that the Twins aren't going to be major players in free agency, and acquiring expensive player(s) via trade is even more unlikely.

 

For 2015, the Twins are committed to $26.95 million. They have a $3.6MM option on Burton but the buyout is only $200,000. Some players could be arbitration-eligible but none project to get much (and may well not even be with the organization). So payroll is indeed set to drop, and probably by quite a bit. The Twins were already down to 23rd this year and could easily be 28th in 2015.

 

Even the current level is an obvious breach of the Twins' part of the Target Field deal- but the cutting has only just begun.

[Zarathustra]

Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

 

I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

 

And calling Mauer soft.

[Kwak]

OK folks, let's not go nuts. The Twins did hand out one of the largest contracts in MLB history just before opening the new stadium, and it's not like this year's $82M mark was absurdly low. But if the number drops again, it's going to be very tough to stomach.

 

Well, you had better get to the drug store and buy something for your stomache! That payroll is going to fall. We have already been prompted about what to expect on the free-agent market: Pelfrey, some over-the-hill position player who has played on winning teams--think Jamie Carroll clone who hails from winning teams (Omar Vizquel?) or dare I say it: Nick Punto, and maybe a Correira-clone. The price for those three (remember to deduct the $4MM paid this season to Pelfrey from your total) will be less than Morneau's 2013 salary.

 

Expected 2014 payroll $65-$70MM. I didn't include for the possibility that Burton or Doumit get traded--which would further reduce the payroll.

[twinsfan34]

We did see Part I of what happens: The people responsible for 99+96+96 were rewarded with 2 year contracts. Of course Ryan is accountable "only" for the 96+96, but that should have been enough for an owner who cared to hold him accountable.

 

I wouldn't hold Ryan accountable for the 96 and 96. At least not wholly. Just like Billy Beane was not responsible for those Oakland A's teams that experience a great deal of success from 1999 to 2004. Jason Giambi, Eric Chavez, Ramon Hernandez, Tim Hudson, Miguel Tejada, Matt Stairs, Ben Grieve, et al were already there and locked into contracts. His only contributions during that time were Mark Mulder and Barry Zito. A solid FA signing in 1999 of John Jaha.

 

So that to say, not much of the 2012 roster is Terry Ryan's doing. You'd have to go back to 2007 (draft, signings, etc) to find who's on the roster as his doing. 2011 and 2012 were very solid drafts. He didn't sign much of anyone, but our payroll was over $100M...and we all know that had to be reduced.

[nicksaviking]

I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

 

And calling Mauer soft.

 

Ha we'll my post was just in fun, I just found it funny we got two Nietzsche references in two days. Besides, your post was much more positive than anything the other guy would write.

[Rick Niedermann]

I'm all for being patient and waiting for the next wave of young Talent. And in 2015 the starting lineup should be pretty decent. But this group could also take it's lumps like Hicks and Arcia did. Even if they all performed to their high expectations right away there will not be enough starting pitching to make them competitive. When is the last time the Twins made a move and you said to yourself, I didn't see that coming. (maybe Neagle for Smiley in 92) This season the Twins need to be all in on 25 year old Masahiro Tanaka. The cash is there, the owner says spend it, we need a Frontline pitcher. If Terry Ryan wants to be accountable he makes a legitimate run at a top tier pitcher. Otherwise it is the same old, same old.

[ThePuck]

I'm all for being patient and waiting for the next wave of young Talent. And in 2015 the starting lineup should be pretty decent. But this group could also take it's lumps like Hicks and Arcia did. Even if they all performed to their high expectations right away there will not be enough starting pitching to make them competitive. When is the last time the Twins made a move and you said to yourself, I didn't see that coming. (maybe Neagle for Smiley in 92) This season the Twins need to be all in on 25 year old Masahiro Tanaka. The cash is there, the owner says spend it, we need a Frontline pitcher. If Terry Ryan wants to be accountable he makes a legitimate run at a top tier pitcher. Otherwise it is the same old, same old.

 

In 2015, the starting lineup should have some talent...but they'll still be adjusting to the league, which some will do eventually and some won't do at all...and the pitching the same way. We keep being told by some (not you) that the parade is coming in 2015, but that is extremely unrealistic...look how long KC had really high rated farm systems. They are finally, FINALLY, getting there.

[twinsnorth49]

I'm a different dude and, sorry to disappoint, am not even a real student of Nietzsche. I thought it would make for a fun, appropriate handle since forums, at least excellent ones like TD, should be about the pursuit of Truth.

 

And calling Mauer soft.

 

and to think I almost liked you.....

[diehardtwinsfan]

What exactly is "taking shortcuts"? Does that mean actually attempting to be competitive before your prized prospects arrive? Because personally I don't see anything wrong with it. No one is suggesting anything that endangers the future outlook.

 

The question I'd ask is whether or not this is possible. They could go out and get all the good FAs and still not be competitive. I like the idea of some smart signings, which I think Abreau and Tanaka cover, but those guys are likely going to take some lumps next year.

[Shane Wahl]

Don't think we're not on to you Shane. Did you change your avatar AND name? Or have you now recruited your poor, anarchist, Nietzche-loving students to the site! Twins Daily is Dead!

 

Haha! I would certainly like to hope that any student of mine could be so spot-on in his or her assessment. Those were two good first posts.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Fascinating thread. There are those that dislike Ryan. Your choice. One person calls him arrogant, multiple chime in the same. Arrogant because he once said Twins way. Now they are losing so he is arrogant. Feel free to correct me but WTF is wrong in baseball with stressing fundamental error free baseball. Twins way in building under Ryan part 1, draft well, trade pieces under the sell high, buy low theory. Have the Twins strayed from the Twins Way? In the office and in the field about like a TD thread does from the OP. That does not make them arrogant.

 

I actually think that TR is the right guy for the job right now. I'm not convinced he's the right guy for the job when next wave arrives.

 

That said, I have to echo what others had said regarding what is perceived to be arrogance. He took a pretty unnecessary pot shot at Mackey, and like others have said, you don't get to beat your chest on your track record when it sucks. This really does concern me. I get that teams wanted to model themselves after the Twins in the early part of the 2000s... However at this point, their success has worn off and the game is clearly changing. Unfortunately, I don't see Ryan recognizing this, and that concerns me.

 

Fortunately, what the Twins need most right now is good scouting to identify those high ceiling guys and a means of acquiring farm talent via trade. This is what Ryan has done well throughout his career. They need this more than explosive FA signings. So for the time being, I think Ryan is the right guy to handle things. Ask me this question in 2 years, and if nothing else changes, I will not be so confident. When some of those guys fail, Ryan is going to have to fill in some gaps via FA. I dont' see him doing this.

[Shane Wahl]

Ha we'll my post was just in fun, I just found it funny we got two Nietzsche references in two days. Besides, your post was much more positive than anything the other guy would write.

 

Hey! I generally was pretty positive about players and prospects, and up until just the past month or so, I would have been 51% or more in favor of keeping TR around.

 

To keep the philosophy references going: there was a point near the end of Martin Heidegger's career where he said something like "Only God can save us now." Heidegger was an atheist. This is analogous to the Twins, since only new ownership can save us now (and it ain't gonna happen).

[diehardtwinsfan]

The original post was already too long, so I stopped short on a few things. Now that it has some daylight in between posts, I hope you'll humor my adding a bit more:

 

1) I mentioned watching/listening to 162+ games each season during the 02-10 run. I'm not fair weather. Heading into the 2010 playoffs (homefield against the Yanks remember?), I made a commitment that if the Twins didn't make it past the first round THIS time, I would significantly reduce my investment in this team until they gave me reason to do otherwise. My participation has declined, in kind, since.

 

And why shouldn't it for all of us? I support the institution, win or lose, not the ownership and the flagging performance of the product they disingenuously trot out.

 

2) The argument of the breached public contract holds outside of the vacuum of team performance. In other words, if the economic return to the tax payers could be demonstrated to be a net profit on their stadium investment (an impossible to prove metric either way), it doesn't matter. If the Pohlads had ended up losing money after the stadium was built (a distinct impossibility), it doesn't matter. The entire exercise of stadium building was predicated on the idea that the it would bring added revenue, spending, and results - a change on the field come October from what we had been experiencing.

 

Have we all forgotten this? That was the mantra when Torii walked, when Santana leaving was a foregone conclusion, and when all the inside and outside free agents came and went unsigned since. Money doesn't buy championships, but better (read: often costlier) players could have benefited this team throughout.

 

3) When money was spent ('10 and '11), it wasn't spent wisely. Accountability is, again, the thread. Bill Smith is out, but we've been told that TR was instrumental in many moves/non-moves while not GM. Also, Gardy had no influence on the composition of these teams? The reason these non-diamond-nine individuals are also well compensated is because they should have high standards of performance. How have they performed relative to the public contract?

 

Thanks for hearing me out. From a ND native, MN resident through those fat years, now a DC resident, I can't wait for things to turn around for our team. But to do so will take some measure of real accountability. Seriously, Go Twins.

 

Welcome to the site... and great posts... My only quibble is that I thought the money was spent well in 2010... not so much after...

[LaBombo]

For the most part, I tend to think that calls for coaches and execs to get fired are reactionary and uninformed, failing to account for the many circumstances that play into any outcome.

For the most part, any other franchise in modern history has fired their manager after 3 consecutive 90 loss seasons, whatever the many circumstances that played into the outcome, and it wouldn't occur to me to label their front offices "uninformed" or "reactionary".

 

Some were no doubt fired because they were bad managers, but many were probably competent to very good managers who were stuck with very little talent to manage. And yet they were all let go, regardless of where they ranked on their franchise's problem list.

 

Rather than dismiss calls for the removal of a generally well-regarded manager, maybe an article about accountability without management changes would be better served by explaining how the Twins' situation is so unique that they should perform a nearly unprecedented act of faith by letting Gardy return.