Twins Outright Four Players

[stringer bell]

The words got in there didn't they? I like TD and I really like a good discussion without name-calling, demeaning, etc. For the record, my opinion is that Presley is a fourth OF, who'll start the season as the Twins regular CF. I fervently hope that he is replaced by mid-May. If he isn't replaced, the reason for this happening in order of likelihood: 1) No potential replacement has stepped up to demonstrate they could be a regular CF or 2) Presley becomes a bona fide major league CF and leadoff hitter at age 28.

[Alex]

By the way, it is a major org. mistake to put Presley out there instead of Hicks. Hicks should be the starting CF and 7th or so right now except vs. lefties where he should bat FIRST in front of Dozier and then Mauer.

 

Alex Presley is like Mike Pelfrey in so many ways that I want to vomit.

 

Hicks needs to be there. Full stop. Presley as the fourth OF instead of Mastro is fine.

 

I'm really not clear why Hicks would be a better option. He was clearly outmatched and put in a position to have a historically awful rookie season. Putting him out there again seems like a further exercise in futility until he shows he's improved in AAA, not to mention sends a pretty terrible message to players and fans -- not that they seem to care about that lately.

 

I don't think Alex Presley is the answer but he's the best option right now, barring a FA signing, to keep the spot warm. Whether he should bat lead off is another question, but the Twins have a whole host of terrible hitters and not one of them fits as an ideal lead off candidate, or if they could hit there they fit better somewhere else.

[Blackjack]

So...."apologetics" as a label for how someone feels and expresses his thoughts about the Twins is OK, but "apolgist" is not? Again, confusing to those who cherish the language and the use of it in self-expression.

 

 

This is one of the problems I see with TD, everyone thinks they're an English professor and if you screw up on your post, use the wrong term or wording, you get called on it. It discourages posting. I've had terms like 'Occams razor' thrown at me and my posts!! WTF??!!

 

Concentrate on the baseball content of the posts and try not to make it into an English class.

[rcfarmer]

I like Aaron Hicks for the future but Alex Presley .304 OBP > Aaron Hicks .259 OBP.

[Rosterman]

There is no need to go to arbitration with a player like Roeincke. You either sign him again later or not. With a pitcher like, say Jesse Crain out there, commanding maybe $3 million...why be forced to pay a pitcher a salary you don't need to play. The Twins still have to make a decision on the worth of Swarzak and Duensing in arbitration. The other three, will sign as minor league free agents if they don't grab something somewhere else. Martis was given a shot with the Twins and can see it happening again, as well hometown kid DeVries, if the Twins DO want either back. Thomas could remain in the centerfield mix with the Twins if he chooses, and it has to look inticing considering the state of the Twins outfield, to sign a minor league deal with Minnesota. Considering his overall play, I doubt that demand for his services from another team will be substantial.

[old nurse]

And perhaps, Ibarra too. I am still scratching my head why both Ibarra and May weren't called up in September (and possibly Acther, as well).

 

If you expect May to be a starter for many years to come why would you start his service time early? Some but at this point the Twins have no reason not to keep him as a starter. Achter and Ibarra maybe should have been called up. I don't think it would have made a difference career wise for them. The 9 innings Martis pitched is insignificant.

[raindog]

It is not surprising at all that Roenicke shares this fate. It's middle relief at best for this guy and the Twins system is full of replacements. FULL. How can anyone watching the minor leagues be surprised by that? Oliveros, Watts, Achter, and Guerra are clear replacements. This is obvious, again. Good grief.

I think it's surprising because the Twins weren't fooled by his decent ERA throughout the year. That's a good thing. I'm not surprised because he's a good pitcher; he's not.

[old nurse]

say Jesse Crain out there, commanding maybe $3 million...

 

Crain will get much more than 3 million and will land somewhere where he has a shot to be a closer.

[Alex]

I think it's surprising because the Twins weren't fooled by his decent ERA throughout the year. That's a good thing. I'm not surprised because he's a good pitcher; he's not.

 

I think Ryan recently indicated he believed that the starting staff was better than its ERA, but there aren't many statistics where they would be considered anything but horrible. I'm really not sure what they are looking at with their pitchers.

 

Roenicke was probably a salary issue. Not that they need to worry about that terribly, but if a player is replaceable and has little upside, there's no reason to keep them around.

[ThePuck]

I think Ryan recently indicated he believed that the starting staff was better than its ERA, but there aren't many statistics where they would be considered anything but horrible. I'm really not sure what they are looking at with their pitchers.

 

Roenicke was probably a salary issue. Not that they need to worry about that terribly, but if a player is replaceable and has little upside, there's no reason to keep them around.

 

And you're right. ERA, BAA, Ks, IP, all horrific for our starting pitching staff. There is nothing Ryan can point to to convince anyone the rotation wasn't as bad as it was. He instead focused on the poor offense, since he didn't make an offseason claim last year that he'd seriously address that. Quite the opposite, he got rid of our #1 and #2 hitters. He never admitted that maybe part of the problem with the offense was the loss of those two and the downgrade that we had endured.

 

We don't have anyone really ready this year to help, we won't pay to get anyone really good, and we have no one good enough on the MLB roster to trade in order to acquire truly good pitching prospects. And since we rarely trade any of our very good prospects for proven MLB players, we're gonna be looking at the same kind of pitching we have these last two seasons.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

I just skimmed thru all the posts on this thread--maybe I missed a couple.

 

I was surprised by Clete Thomas cut--not because I want him starting in CF every day, I don't--but because I think he was a good placeholder for two months. Why not let Clete, Mastro and Elvis (Presley) battle it out in ST?? None of them are better than a 5th OF. But we need a placeholder in CF for two months...my choice was Thomas...

 

Oh the place isn't for Hicks--its for Buxton--who I expect will be starting CF from AS break on. Hicks will be our 4th OF (or maybe RF).

[Kwak]

Alex Presley will be the starting CF because Ryan traded to acquire him to be the next starting CF. He's the GM, the GM who shouts from the pulpit that he is "dealmaker", the "scout of scouts"--and the final personnel authority. Please consider that the Butera to LA trade didn't just dump a useless salary, and/or provide a pitcher for the system--but the #16 prospect in the entire system! Ryan is the GM and can make that call.

 

Last season, Gardenhire lobbied hard (and successfully) to have Hicks as the starting CF. One point was made very clear in the contract extension of Gardenhire--it was Ryan's decision. I'm concluding any lobbying will be more subdued in the future. I don't expect Buxton to be with the Twins soon. Presley will be extended every opportunity to succeed, without looking over his shoulder, such that he can be traded for someone more useful like the previous CFers.

[nicksaviking]

I think it's surprising because the Twins weren't fooled by his decent ERA throughout the year. That's a good thing. I'm not surprised because he's a good pitcher; he's not.

 

He might have been able to fool them with the ERA but you'll never be able to slip the old BB/9 by this club. Sometimes I get the feeling a walk is about the worst outcome possible for some of those in charge.

[howieramone1406390264]

Alex Presley will be the starting CF because Ryan traded to acquire him to be the next starting CF. He's the GM, the GM who shouts from the pulpit that he is "dealmaker", the "scout of scouts"--and the final personnel authority. Please consider that the Butera to LA trade didn't just dump a useless salary, and/or provide a pitcher for the system--but the #16 prospect in the entire system! Ryan is the GM and can make that call.

 

Last season, Gardenhire lobbied hard (and successfully) to have Hicks as the starting CF. One point was made very clear in the contract extension of Gardenhire--it was Ryan's decision. I'm concluding any lobbying will be more subdued in the future. I don't expect Buxton to be with the Twins soon. Presley will be extended every opportunity to succeed, without looking over his shoulder, such that he can be traded for someone more useful like the previous CFers.

For 30 days of Morneau, Ryan got Presley and a PTNL. I believe he spent 4 days in Indianapolis looking for starting pitching, but settled for 2 useful pieces. King Theo was recently quoted that not all trades yield a core player. The Butera trade was, IMO universally applauded. Accepting cash for Carroll was not popular on the board, but I personally don't see where that was a big deal.

[golfboy1]

4 seasons at AAA.

 

His 821 plate appearances amount to a .304 OBP in the major leagues. Why would any sane organization ever put a guy like this as their leadoff man? Dozier and Hicks serve as the right guys right now. And they aren't 28/29 years old. Filling in the roster with AAAA guys is NOT the right approach to rebuild and be successful. That, we know, is the Terry Ryan-Ron Gardenhire approach. It doesn't work.

 

 

How is Hicks the "right guy right now"? He batted under .200 & looked hopelessly lost most of the time. It didn't look like he was showing any real improvement during his recent play before he was demoted. Then he managed to bat .222 @ AAA after his demotion.

 

Presley might not be great.. or the long term answer but I fail to see how rewarding Hicks with the job after last season makes sense.

 

You can't use Presley's stats against him but ignore Hicks stats. I'm all for Hicks being the Twins CFer...when he has shown enough improvement that he warrants it.

 

Bottom line. Presley might not be great, but SOMEONE has to play CF & bat leadoff & he seems like the best current option.

 

BTW..Hicks batted .047 last season leading off

[ashbury]

I was surprised by Clete Thomas cut--not because I want him starting in CF every day, I don't--but because I think he was a good placeholder for two months. Why not let Clete, Mastro and Elvis (Presley) battle it out in ST??

 

They still can battle it out, if the guess is correct that he and the other players removed from the 40-man won't be claimed. While it may be true that one of these three will be the opening day CF starter, in the larger picture they all profile as a 4th outfielder on a contending team and it's not a great use of 40-man space to keep three of the same thing. I reserve judgement until I see what they choose to fill these newly open slots (presumably young'uns who need protection from rule 5), but all four removals make general sense to me.

 

/ edit - small point: since teams don't usually announce anything during the waiver process, I guess this announcement means the four players already passed unclaimed. Is this the time of year that waivers are revocable? If so, then maybe others were waived, claimed, and pulled back.

[nicksaviking]

The poor CF outlook is really priming the front office to be in a tough position next year. We all know what the chorus will be if (when?) the CF options at the MLB level fail. They better be prepared to hear calls for Buxton starting in spring training if they fail to remedy the situation before hand, because these demands will be coming from rubes and experts alike if Buxton shows any competency is first weeks at AA.

 

Of course if they were looking for an excuse deviate from their comfort zone and promote Buxton previous to the Target Field hosted All-Star game, there's probably no better way than to field inadaquate CF'ers to begin with.

[stringer bell]

Buxton has not played above High A yet. I have seen him in person and I'm impressed, but I be very surprised if he makes his Target Field debut before September 1. Perhaps he'll be Mike Trout, but more likely it will take a bit of adjusting at the higher levels of the minors. I think Hicks will be playing CF for the Twins by May 15. He is going to need to show his potential at Rochester to overcome his struggles this year.

[nicksaviking]

Buxton has not played above High A yet. I have seen him in person and I'm impressed, but I be very surprised if he makes his Target Field debut before September 1. Perhaps he'll be Mike Trout, but more likely it will take a bit of adjusting at the higher levels of the minors. I think Hicks will be playing CF for the Twins by May 15. He is going to need to show his potential at Rochester to overcome his struggles this year.

 

I don't disagree, I'm just suggesting the front office better be prepared to hear people screaming for him if they chose to not field an adaquate CF'er. I further surmised that if the front office DID want an excuse to show off Buxton before they show off Target Field at the All-Star game, they would likely field awful CF'ers to make the decision easier on themselves.

[Shane Wahl]

With regard to Mr. Hicks vs. Mr. Presley:

 

I am not ignoring Hicks's season numbers, but I do think that people might be ignoring his post April numbers. Basically around .700 OPS is what one could quite expect from someone skipping a level, especially in his case.

 

I rather like the idea, still, of Hicks and Dozier at the top of the order against lefties.

 

The point (quite lost . . . my fault, clearly) is about the Twins continuing to acquire AAAA players instead of either signing legitimate MLB players or playing prospects. The Thomas/Presley duo was necessary last year sans Hicks and Mastroianni. Going forward, though? Presley is not a major league leadoff hitter. It's embarrassing that this team considers him a "catalyst" and is going to give him this roster spot and this lineup spot.

 

TR's comments about Presley (and I will assume Gardenhire loves him) are just another example of why I have finally come around to wanting these two guys fired. There is no statistical basis for Presley love, esp. starting at the top of the lineup. Isn't that clear? Dude has spent a lot of time in AAA and that has not translated to major league success beyond 4 OF.

[Shane Wahl]

By the way, I think I should change my avatar. Having it makes me more and more surly.

 

Also, for the record, I am not a Big Ten college professor. I did teach at Purdue as a grad student, but I am now employed at the community college in town. Servicing the poor and whatnot. Teaching Nietzsche to poor people . . .

[Shane Wahl]

(And I only get angry at smart people). This means Seth is smart. But we knew that.

[howieramone1406390264]

I don't disagree, I'm just suggesting the front office better be prepared to hear people screaming for him if they chose to not field an adaquate CF'er. I further surmised that if the front office DID want an excuse to show off Buxton before they show off Target Field at the All-Star game, they would likely field awful CF'ers to make the decision easier on themselves.

I don't view Presley and/or Hicks as inadequate or awful. IMO the FO has adequately addressed the short term need in CF. There are other more pressing issues. I agree with Seth, we will see Buxton sooner rather than later, and I don't believe it will be influenced by screaming people.

[Shane Wahl]

Buxton in CF, Hicks in RF or LF is definitely the future.

 

Maybe not appropriate for this thread, but where do you put Buxton in the lineup?

[Alex]

With regard to Mr. Hicks vs. Mr. Presley:

 

I am not ignoring Hicks's season numbers, but I do think that people might be ignoring his post April numbers. Basically around .700 OPS is what one could quite expect from someone skipping a level, especially in his case.

 

I rather like the idea, still, of Hicks and Dozier at the top of the order against lefties.

 

The point (quite lost . . . my fault, clearly) is about the Twins continuing to acquire AAAA players instead of either signing legitimate MLB players or playing prospects. The Thomas/Presley duo was necessary last year sans Hicks and Mastroianni. Going forward, though? Presley is not a major league leadoff hitter. It's embarrassing that this team considers him a "catalyst" and is going to give him this roster spot and this lineup spot.

 

TR's comments about Presley (and I will assume Gardenhire loves him) are just another example of why I have finally come around to wanting these two guys fired. There is no statistical basis for Presley love, esp. starting at the top of the lineup. Isn't that clear? Dude has spent a lot of time in AAA and that has not translated to major league success beyond 4 OF.

 

I get your point here, but I think it's really only the organization that is at least sounding like Presley is more of a stopgap. Your last paragraph, I completely agree with and I just can't believe some of the quotes we are getting. At some point, they are either transparent attempts to spread false optimism or they actually have a completely out-of-whack evaluation system.

 

I think that until Hicks can hit RHP he has no business in the majors, at least for now. There's more value (to him and the team) in him playing everyday at his age than having him sit or be overwhelmed on the big club.

[ThePuck]

I get your point here, but I think it's really only the organization that is at least sounding like Presley is more of a stopgap. Your last paragraph, I completely agree with and I just can't believe some of the quotes we are getting. At some point, they are either transparent attempts to spread false optimism or they actually have a completely out-of-whack evaluation system.

 

I think that until Hicks can hit RHP he has no business in the majors, at least for now. There's more value (to him and the team) in him playing everyday at his age than having him sit or be overwhelmed on the big club.

 

Presley is a below average defensive CF and RF and his OPS under .700 doesn't play anywhere especially on the corners. He's, at best, a 4th OF...and should probably stick to LF when he does sub.

[Shane Wahl]

By the way, Hicks was injured in AAA. After he came back at the very end he started hitting well. And hitting RHP.

[nicksaviking]

Also, for the record, I am not a Big Ten college professor. I did teach at Purdue as a grad student, but I am now employed at the community college in town. Servicing the poor and whatnot. Teaching Nietzsche to poor people . . .

 

Are you mad?! You're surely creating anarchists and your intentions to do so in this forum are now quite clear! For shame, FOR SHAME!!

[ashbury]

He might have been able to fool them with the ERA but you'll never be able to slip the old BB/9 by this club. Sometimes I get the feeling a walk is about the worst outcome possible for some of those in charge.

 

Roenicke's WHIP was bad this year. Might not the explanation be that simple?

[Shane Wahl]

Part of my thing is that the Twins need to figure out who is going to be there around the stars: Mauer, Buxton, Sano, and Rosario. I like the idea of rolling with Hicks for that reason. I don't like the idea of him just hanging out in AAA after this MLB time. I never like the idea of promoting up to the majors and then sending players back down. Parmelee is a good example of this. If they just would have been patient with both Parmelee and Hicks and put them in AAA to begin with in those respective seasons, it would have been much better.

 

Dozier goes against my point in one way, but re-affirms the point in another. Obviously he went back down, but he also was back up in 2013 at the beginning of the season and then learned something thanks to Bruno.