Mackey: Twins lack innovation

[ThePuck]

No, it does not and the people here are very knowledgable baseball FANS. I emphasize fans for a couple reasons. One, we have a distant view and a fan's viewpoint. They are two different things but both result in a distorted viewpoint. Two, because we lack the extensive professional experience of the Twin's FO and Terry Ryan in particular. We can certainly question and debate direction, strategy, management style etc, and make a very good arguments for a different approach. However, the indignation that is so common here could be tamed down a bit. We are hobbyist and to presume we know more than the people with considerable credentials in this professionals is a bit naracistic.

 

We don't need credentials on the internet. Everyone gets an equal voice. We need not have managed a P&L of hundreds of millions of dollars. We need not have negotiated contacts worth 10-100 million dollars. We don't need to have any management experience at all or degrees in finance or MBAs. We need no professional baseball experience at all to participate. However, if you don't have these credentials the first presumption should not be that the people who do are the ones who don't understand.

 

If I go to a fancy restaurant as a customer, and I find the food to be bad, I wouldn't expect the chef to come and tell me it is good, that I don't know what I'm talking about, and to be quiet and eat it. I don't need to be a chef to know the product I'm spending money on isn't up to my liking.

 

If I buy a brand new car and it keeps breaking down, I don't need to be a car manufacturer to know the car I bought isn't up to standards.

 

How many people have slammed President Bush for going to War because they believe it was about oil instead of 9-11? How many blame him because no WMDs were found in Iraq once we got there? Were they sitting in on the meetings? Did the get the intelligence briefings, the military briefings, etc, etc...? Nope...but many sure feel that he made a really bad call! How many of them have been President?

 

In this day and age, to suggest people can't be educated on something and have very valid complaints simply because they've never done the job, is ludicrous.

[ashbury]

As moderators... We just want to keep the train on the tracks.

 

Folks, a day later, and several recent posts have the greatest potential to get off the tracks again. Please avoid going off on tangents that are obviously contentious with no chance of solving anything. Also please avoid grouping people needlessly, such as "anyone who agrees/disagrees also must think..."

[glunn]

 

In this day and age, to suggest people can't be educated on something and have very valid complaints simply because they've never done the job, is ludicrous.

 

You are massively exaggerating what he said. This is how flame wars get started. Please stop or I am going to start issuing infractions.

[drivlikejehu]

Puck is right. The poster made an appeal to authority rather than making his own case; appealing to authority as an argument makes sense in certain situations, but essentially defeats the purpose of a message board and, in any event, isn't really deserved considering how bad the Twins are right now.

 

Besides which, I haven't seen anyone "presume to know more" about baseball than Terry Ryan. But for the very reason that he is GM, he should know more than he does about developments in the game. And topics like his attitude towards interviewers, openness to change, have nothing to do specifically with baseball at all.

[ThePuck]

Puck is right. The poster made an appeal to authority rather than making his own case; appealing to authority as an argument makes sense in certain situations, but essentially defeats the purpose of a message board and, in any event, isn't really deserved considering how bad the Twins are right now.

 

Exactly.

[Jim Crikket]

[deleted]

 

Screw it. It ain't worth it.

[Kwak]

I plan on writing an article, er, I mean blog on Billy Beane. I will break down his success as a GM. Trades, through the Draft, Salary cap management (through trading arbitration eligible players vs talent payback), and the team's success with players he was directly responsible for.

 

I have a feeling y'all will be very surprised when the facts are put out there.

 

I will say, this guy is a trader jack, and that has made connecting the strings a lot more work.

 

I also plan on putting forth a very compelling Byron Buxton article that I have yet to find in circulation.

 

Just takes a lot of statistical analysis.

 

As always, love the discussions you guys bring.

 

Before you worship at the altar of Beane, you need to determine how older players have "a resurgence" when they go to Oakland.

[snepp]

Yeah, everyone should know by now the purpose of a message board is to bitch about authority.

 

 

I like to think of it as eloquent discourse.

[snepp]

Before you worship at the altar of Beane, you need to determine how older players have "a resurgence" when they go to Oakland.

 

 

I'm curious, let's hear it.

[ThePuck]

You are massively exaggerating what he said. This is how flame wars get started. Please stop or I am going to start issuing infractions.

 

I have to respectfully ask, what do you think he was saying when he said 'We are hobbyist and to presume we know more than the people with considerable credentials in this professionals is a bit naracistic. '

I don't see how you can read that, with it ending in 'narcissistic' (I corrected the spelling), and then say my quote you quoted is massively exaggerating what he was saying. Then his whole 2nd paragraph expounds on that statement.

[Guest USAFChief]

Request: if you have questions about, or problems with, actions taken, or not taken, by moderator(s), PM one (or all) of us. We will respond via PM. Feel free to vent to your hearts content.

 

If, after trying that route, you still feel you've been treated unfairly, or haven't gotten your answer, I bet one of the site founders will answer a PM regarding their mods.

 

That way we can keep threads on track. About baseball.

 

Thanks.

 

Love,

 

Chief

[The Wise One]

If I go to a fancy restaurant as a customer, and I find the food to be bad, I wouldn't expect the chef to come and tell me it is good, that I don't know what I'm talking about, and to be quiet and eat it. I don't need to be a chef to know the product I'm spending money on isn't up to my liking.

 

If I buy a brand new car and it keeps breaking down, I don't need to be a car manufacturer to know the car I bought isn't up to standards.

 

How many people have slammed President Bush for going to War because they believe it was about oil instead of 9-11? How many blame him because no WMDs were found in Iraq once we got there? Were they sitting in on the meetings? Did the get the intelligence briefings, the military briefings, etc, etc...? Nope...but many sure feel that he made a really bad call! How many of them have been President?

 

In this day and age, to suggest people can't be educated on something and have very valid complaints simply because they've never done the job, is ludicrous.

 

In terms of food, the food might not be bad, it is just not how you like it. Chef didn't cook it like your mama did. Some people think a dash of pepper is too spicy. Others think if it doesn't make you cry it is bland. Neither person cooks bad food. People come from different points of view. Thing of it is, if one calls the other person's food bad, it is really just not accepting other people's way of doing things.

 

People on this board make claims all the time about subjects they only a surface knowledge of or less.

Look back on the 5th post. Does that guy know what the scouts know and how they analyze a player? Does he read their reports and analysis. Does he know what information Ryan wants from his scouts to make a decision? That is not the only post like that. Doesn't stop them from ripping away. Complaints without knowledge are annoying. You all can complain. It sure would be nice if you could have a basis of your complaint, more than I think this is how they make a decision and it is wrong. You can dislike the decisions, but you don't know the decision making process.

[Major League Ready]

In terms of food, the food might not be bad, it is just not how you like it. Chef didn't cook it like your mama did. Some people think a dash of pepper is too spicy. Others think if it doesn't make you cry it is bland. Neither person cooks bad food. People come from different points of view. Thing of it is, if one calls the other person's food bad, it is really just not accepting other people's way of doing things.

 

People on this board make claims all the time about subjects they only a surface knowledge of or less.

Look back on the 5th post. Does that guy know what the scouts know and how they analyze a player? Does he read their reports and analysis. Does he know what information Ryan wants from his scouts to make a decision? That is not the only post like that. Doesn't stop them from ripping away. Complaints without knowledge are annoying. You all can complain. It sure would be nice if you could have a basis of your complaint, more than I think this is how they make a decision and it is wrong. You can dislike the decisions, but you don't know the decision making process.

 

 

This was not my intended point but an excellent point none the less. Your point is actually a better depiction of the divide here. Everyone has their own idea of what should be done. That is very evident here and drives the debate. Some think signing Ellsbury would be a great move and others think it is a terrible idea. Some look at where we are and say fire everyone, we have not produced any good players. Others look at the situation and say, well, we didn’t produce any good players for a while but now we have a loaded farm system. Why is it better now? Do we still have refinements to make?

 

Actually, Puck’s response perfectly illustrated my point. Of course, anyone can determine if they don’t like the food or the car. They might even have some constructive input on improving the food or car. However, to presume to know how to run the restaurant chain or the car company is an entirely different premise. And, I have no problem with the complaining. I hate the problem myself. I just think the tone should not be “those idiots in the FO” when there are likely things we don’t know or don’t understand.

 

I fully recognize we do this in sports. You could even say it is part of being a fan. I have my own disgruntlements and believe some of the criticism is justified. To be completely honest, I support the FO because I have been in TRs shoes, not in MLB but organizations of the same size and a couple considerably larger. That experience tells me we all of us would have a considerably different point of view if we had full access and his experience.

[old nurse]

the issue is, if you are going to ignore big time or even mediocre free agents, and you wont' trade prospects for proven players, you have to BETTER than the other teams at drafting. You have to win the draft, year after year. Otherwise, you end up with at least three years of 95 loss teams.

 

Ryan does get a ton of credit for what he did before. Certainly some dont' give him any credit.....some don't give Gardy credit, some used to rip on Kriby for hitting into too many double plays. Not sure what any of that has to to do with acknowledging that part of the issue is that this team has not drafted and developed enough good players. Whatever the reason, it is true. And, that isn't all on Smith. That's all my post was about, this isn't all Smith's fault, like some people keep posting.

 

I really don't think most people think it is any one person's fault. When there is a fire Ryan the Twins stink because Ryan did (insert opinion) the unspoken reaction might "Might not have helped the situation" followed by a launch into what happened during the Smith Era.

I would add that anything Ryan is alleged to have done wrong was fixable by Smith.

[howieramone1406390264]

This was not my intended point but an excellent point none the less. Your point is actually a better depiction of the divide here. Everyone has their own idea of what should be done. That is very evident here and drives the debate. Some think signing Ellsbury would be a great move and others think it is a terrible idea. Some look at where we are and say fire everyone, we have not produced any good players. Others look at the situation and say, well, we didn’t produce any good players for a while but now we have a loaded farm system. Why is it better now? Do we still have refinements to make?

 

Actually, Puck’s response perfectly illustrated my point. Of course, anyone can determine if they don’t like the food or the car. They might even have some constructive input on improving the food or car. However, to presume to know how to run the restaurant chain or the car company is an entirely different premise. And, I have no problem with the complaining. I hate the problem myself. I just think the tone should not be “those idiots in the FO” when there are likely things we don’t know or don’t understand.

 

I fully recognize we do this in sports. You could even say it is part of being a fan. I have my own disgruntlements and believe some of the criticism is justified. To be completely honest, I support the FO because I have been in TRs shoes, not in MLB but organizations of the same size and a couple considerably larger. That experience tells me we all of us would have a considerably different point of view if we had full access and his experience.

I agree because I have followed the Corporate Star also. Maybe the board could make a gentlemen's agreement that the Twins aren't run by Larry, Moe, and Curly.

[Major League Ready]

I agree because I have followed the Corporate Star also. Maybe the board could make a gentlemen's agreement that the Twins aren't run by Larry, Moe, and Curly.

 

I had a prettty good idea that was the case. It was evident not long after I started following this forum.

[Kwak]

This was not my intended point but an excellent point none the less. Your point is actually a better depiction of the divide here. Everyone has their own idea of what should be done. That is very evident here and drives the debate. Some think signing Ellsbury would be a great move and others think it is a terrible idea. Some look at where we are and say fire everyone, we have not produced any good players. Others look at the situation and say, well, we didn’t produce any good players for a while but now we have a loaded farm system. Why is it better now? Do we still have refinements to make?

 

Actually, Puck’s response perfectly illustrated my point. Of course, anyone can determine if they don’t like the food or the car. They might even have some constructive input on improving the food or car. However, to presume to know how to run the restaurant chain or the car company is an entirely different premise. And, I have no problem with the complaining. I hate the problem myself. I just think the tone should not be “those idiots in the FO” when there are likely things we don’t know or don’t understand.

 

I fully recognize we do this in sports. You could even say it is part of being a fan. I have my own disgruntlements and believe some of the criticism is justified. To be completely honest, I support the FO because I have been in TRs shoes, not in MLB but organizations of the same size and a couple considerably larger. That experience tells me we all of us would have a considerably different point of view if we had full access and his experience.

 

So the FO isn't accountable? Why? Is it because every team must "take it's turn"?, or ownership won't give them the resources?, or success is random?, or must be cyclical?

Ergo, there are "forces" above and beyond the control of management that require the Twins to stink?

One constant has been that the Twins always cite reasons for failure. Sometimes it's "the big, bad Yankees--we just can't compete with all of their money" (this despite the money transferred to the Twins from MLB [mostly from the Yankees!]), or "injuries", or whatever! They continually provide excuses. Most teams don't do this. I conclude this front office is far more concerned about their image than in actual success--"sell the sizzle, not the steak". I have lived in many cities that have MLB teams, but Minnesota is the only team that I have encountered, that has people shouting about how good management is and how lucky we fans are to have this group running "our favorite team"--especially during periods of failure. How can this be?

[Shane Wahl]

Just for reference, sometimes "appeal to authority" as a fallacy is altered to "appeal to illegitimate authority." And I think that is a wise correction. Appealing to an authority is not necessarily bad if the person in question truly has expertise. One big problem is when one conflates a person *in* authority as being an authority.

 

Whether the relevant cast of characters involved for the Twins have that expertise is another issue, though maybe debating that should wait a few weeks around here . . .

[diehardtwinsfan]

I added another quote, here it is: QUOTE TO NOTE: "Back when I was over at the Metrodome in '07, we did a lot of stat work, but it wasn't with the depth that he certainly provides for us. It's different. And he's got some statistical things that I don't believe in, and he's got a lot of things that I do believe in." -- General manager Terry Ryan, on the team's work with advanced statistics and the influence of Jack Goin, the team's director of baseball research.

 

And I don't know what sort of veto power is or where it's been said Jack Goin has it. Having said that, yes, I do think Ryan is going to, in the end, go with his own judgement. As he said in the quote above, there are things he doesn't believe in that Goin shows him. If one of the things Ryan doesn't believe in is why Goin is saying it's a bad personnel move, Ryan is going to do it anyway...since he's the boss.

 

One guy should have this kind of power... nor should one guy have the power to make the trade. If I were running things, there would be 3-6 guys making the decision with the need for a super majority to go forward with it... That's just me.

[howieramone1406390264]

So the FO isn't accountable? Why? Is it because every team must "take it's turn"?, or ownership won't give them the resources?, or success is random?, or must be cyclical?

Ergo, there are "forces" above and beyond the control of management that require the Twins to stink?

One constant has been that the Twins always cite reasons for failure. Sometimes it's "the big, bad Yankees--we just can't compete with all of their money" (this despite the money transferred to the Twins from MLB [mostly from the Yankees!]), or "injuries", or whatever! They continually provide excuses. Most teams don't do this. I conclude this front office is far more concerned about their image than in actual success--"sell the sizzle, not the steak". I have lived in many cities that have MLB teams, but Minnesota is the only team that I have encountered, that has people shouting about how good management is and how lucky we fans are to have this group running "our favorite team"--especially during periods of failure. How can this be?

I've lived in 4 communities with MLB, and my experience is all teams make excuses at some point in time. Many of us have been following the Twins since early youth, I think we're as qualified as anyone to decide if we want to support the current management group.