Phil Miller: players want Gardy back

[Ultima Ratio]

Seth, I'm just asking, but did you ask or observe the responses of Arcia, Pinto, Florimon or any of the non-white players? Seems like the local boys and the southern guys always get to speak for the entire team. Might be important to hear what the other players think, too.

 

There's probably a war on women too. Not a-one of them have been drafted, signed or extended -- ever.

[Linus]

What does a manager do, if not make the players better? I mean, if he is not responsible at all for the onfield play, why pay them so much? Why have one at all?

 

Well, there is a reason that managers get paid far less than the players. For the most part, players decide games. I'm not defending Gardy, per se I'm just saying that this team (as currently constructed) could have the greatest manager in the world and they are not going to win.

[Shane Wahl]

Zero accountability for the leadership. One more guaranteed 90+ loss season.

[Shane Wahl]

The Cubs have bad players too. There, however, it isn't acceptable to manage over such a debacle.

[Shane Wahl]

I see "Minnesota Nice" all over this organization and many of the comments here. People would feel bad about firing somebody (or not re-signing!!!) so they are resistant to hurting feelings. It also means resistance to change and resistance to getting better, in this case.

 

Other places don't put up with this.

[gunnarthor]

The Cubs have bad players too. There, however, it isn't acceptable to manage over such a debacle.

 

How's that working out for them?

[ThePuck]

How's that working out for them?

 

Not so well for their manager, who was fired after only two seasons of the team's futility.

[Mike Sixel]

I was interested to see how Gardy's pay compares to other managers, only to be surprised that manager pay is not public......

 

NFL salaries: on line

NBA salaries: mostly on line

NHL salaries: moslty no on line

 

Interesting.....

[JB_Iowa]

Reusse: How bad are these Twins if they really didn't quit on Gardenhire? | Star Tribune

 

'nuff said about why I don't care if the players want the manager back but I'll leave you with one quote:

 

"In Minnesota, where a culture has surfaced that the players seem to fill out permission slips to be in the lineup, the message was: “Take the day off, kid. Games in September (or August or July) don’t mean anything around here.”

 

...

 

"This actually began in 2010, when Twins started missing time with sore cuticles, but there still were enough “gamers” and enough starting pitchers to win 94 games and a sixth AL Central title.

 

Media types who were close to Michael Cuddyer insist that his decision to leave Minnesota and head to Colorado after the 2011 season had as much to do with disgust over the privileged attitude that he perceived to have taken over the Twins’ clubhouse as the extra millions offered by the Rockies."

[Shane Wahl]

How's that working out for them?

 

They just fired the manager, so I guess we have to wait and see. They have some better pitching in place at the moment.

[gunnarthor]

They just fired the manager, so I guess we have to wait and see. They have some better pitching in place at the moment.

 

So firing Quade didn't help? Did they fire Pinella before that or did he resign?

[LaBombo]

So firing Quade didn't help? Did they fire Pinella before that or did he resign?

You can probably find plenty of examples of a team as bad as the Twins not improving with a new manager. You can probably find examples of teams that did improve, too.

 

What you can't find is a single example of another team as bad as the Twins have been the past 3 seasons getting either better or worse after it retains its manager for another season in the past 30 years.

 

Because nobody else has.

 

Which should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about the wisdom of bringing Gardenhire back.

[gunnarthor]

You can probably find plenty of examples of a team as bad as the Twins not improving with a new manager. You can probably find examples of teams that did improve, too.

 

What you can't find is a single example of another team as bad as the Twins have been the past 3 seasons getting either better or worse after it retains its manager for another season in the past 30 years.

 

Because nobody else has.

 

Which should tell you pretty much everything you need to know about the wisdom of bringing Gardenhire back.

 

Not really. While you can find plenty of managers getting the axe after three bad seasons, it's rarer to find one who got axed in Gardy's position - ie, after having a long run of success with that same team and with the same GM in place that hired him.

[howieramone1406390264]

I see "Minnesota Nice" all over this organization and many of the comments here. People would feel bad about firing somebody (or not re-signing!!!) so they are resistant to hurting feelings. It also means resistance to change and resistance to getting better, in this case.

 

Other places don't put up with this.

Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

[diehardtwinsfan]

I guess I should eat some crow. I thought Gardy was as good as gone, and I honestly think he should be gone. I fail to see how he's the right guy to work with these rookies as they come up. He's way too impatient with them and will play his favorites. I don't like this at all.

[John Bonnes]

Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

 

This is a vast over-generalization of what Shane Wahl said. Please don't do that. If you can't help but read his post that way, you might want to add him to your "ignore" list.

 

And Shane, I think it's possible that retaining Gardenhire isn't an act of pity or niceness, but instead is because the team thinks he's a good manager that has had bad teams. I think we can agree that isn't a wholly crazy viewpoint.

[old nurse]

After 3 seasons of more than 95 losses each, I really don't CARE if the players want him back. In fact, the players wanting him back is almost an indictment of him as far as I am concerned.

 

At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

 

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect.

 

The best boss I ever had did not put fear into anyone. Whatever he asked out of people he got. If someone did bad, they felt worse that they let him down. He wasn't a buddy to anyone. Had a supervisor that ruled with terror. People did the minimum and started to look for new work.

[Shane Wahl]

Why are you stereotyping and insulting all Minnesotans? Could there possibly be another explanation, such as you're opinion is wrong?

 

"All over this organization" and "many of the comments" comes nowhere near "all Minnesotans." Not even remotely close.

[Shane Wahl]

This is a vast over-generalization of what Shane Wahl said. Please don't do that. If you can't help but read his post that way, you might want to add him to your "ignore" list.

 

And Shane, I think it's possible that retaining Gardenhire isn't an act of pity or niceness, but instead is because the team thinks he's a good manager that has had bad teams. I think we can agree that isn't a wholly crazy viewpoint.

 

John, with regard to within the organization, it isn't reducible to being nice, but given the tendency to keep promoting from within and retaining people instead of going outside the organization, there just seems like there is something a bit off with how employees (who fail) are viewed.

 

As far as some comments being made, I think a lot of it has to do with "being nice"--there is no such kind of shrug-it-off-and-keep-the-guy mentality even in Indiana about various sports teams across levels (except for maybe Gene Keady in the last years of his tenure).

 

I have a hard time believing many straight-faced attempts to label Ron Gardenhire a "good manager" these days. This place is full of criticisms of Gardy for in game decisions, each game. The Twins were as good as the Toronto Blue Jays during the successful seasons under Gardenhire--they just happened to play in the worst or second worst division in baseball in each or almost each of those seasons. Without those division titles what would the "good manager" discussion be like?

[LaBombo]

Not really. While you can find plenty of managers getting the axe after three bad seasons, it's rarer to find one who got axed in Gardy's position - ie, after having a long run of success with that same team and with the same GM in place that hired him.

Maybe I'm missing something. I'm saying that while you may feel it's rare for a manager with Gardy's overall record to be fired, it's not the case. No other organization would bring him back after three seasons like this. Thirty years of evidence makes that pretty clear.

[darin617]

No evidence that Gardenhire has lost his players | 6-4-3 | StarTribune.com

 

From the article: "But one thing was pretty clear in the Twins' clubhouse this weekend: The players seem pretty solidly behind their manager. Nobody ever goes on the record with calls for firing the manager, of course, but the current roster seems pretty loyal to Gardenhire. There's no evidence of a whisper campaign against him, no sense that he's lost the clubhouse in the least. If that's true, even amid 291 losses over three seasons, it's pretty remarkable."

 

Why should anyone care what these players want. How many of the players on the team deserve to be here? I guess they feel comfortable with Gardy, or losers just like to stick together. Too bad Mauer didn't ask for an early opt out in his contract.

[mnfireman]

Regardless of anybody's thoughts or feelings on Gardy's extension, its there. Now if Ryan and the Pohlads are committed to winning with Gardy they need to do a couple things:

1 - Implement a plan. Commit to either a full rebuild or make it impossible for the big free agent names to say no.

2 - Hold the coaches more accountable. Times have changed, power pitching and power hitting are more a part of the game, i.e. the teams that win have both. Teams still have to advance runners, induce groundballs, hit the cut off, do the little things to win, but also need the extra base hits and strikeouts. Either the coaches can coach this or they can go away.

3 - Quit mismanaging players. Hicks should have been demoted long before he was so he had a chance to get his head on right and maybe earn a September call-up. Gibson should have been up long before he approached his innings limit and arm got tired. Arcia should not have been shuttled back and forth. Hernandez and Walters should never have started a game for the big league club. I am sure there are many more examples, these were just fairly obvious.

 

The examples stated above have been mismanaged for years, so it may not be easy, but needs to be done.

[Kwak]

Why should anyone care what these players want. How many of the players on the team deserve to be here? I guess they feel comfortable with Gardy, or losers just like to stick together. Too bad Mauer didn't ask for an early opt out in his contract.

 

I have a few "thoughts" about "opt out"/trade request. A) Mauer would never "opt-out" unless he wants to retire from playing--that would be STUPID; trade request? The Pohlads did more than just "pay him and give him a "no-trade" clause, they "helped" him obtain the car dealership which provides him a "higher level" in the Twin Cities community; C) Mauer may have "plans" after baseball (IDK) but it's quite reasonable to think so; leaving the team may "interfere" with said plans; D) I also think that a public statement showing non-support of management might be construed (a clause in the contract?) as a trade request.

[Pius Jefferson]

I'd throw in his wife just had twin daughters and both families live in the Twin Cities.

 

Also, why is it that some players are called loyal for wanting to stick with a team during bad times but others who aren't pounding down the door asking for a trade don't care about winning?

[Monkeypaws]

JB Iowa said: "At this point, I WANT a manager who puts a little "fear of God" in the players. Someone who is not their buddy -- whether for golf or bowling or whatever.

 

I don't want war in the clubhouse but I want a VERY healthy respect."

 

I'll disagree - a couple of my favorite managers keep a loose clubhouse: Maddon and Francona. I have no use for iron asses like Bobby Valentine. Lack of talent is the #1 problem.

[Thrylos]

The current roster loves Gardy and his pals and Terry, because in other teams they would be collecting AAA paychecks and not the $400K minimum MLB salary.

[JB_Iowa]

 

I'll disagree - a couple of my favorite managers keep a loose clubhouse: Maddon and Francona. I have no use for iron asses like Bobby Valentine. Lack of talent is the #1 problem.

 

Yes, there's a lack of talent but there's also a real question as to whether his management style is still working.

 

Until I read Reusse's column today, I had no idea that Cuddyer had apparently raised issues about a "privileged" attitude that had seemingly taken over in the clubhouse but I've been commenting on it for several years. While others may say that it dates to the end of the 2010 season which, despite an appearance in the playoffs, ended in a shambles (2-8 in last 10 games plus 3 straight playoff losses), the thing that crystallized it for me was the handling of Mauer's rehab in 2011. The fact that he was not required to do even a short stint in Rochester but was allowed to do all of his rehab in Florida and Minnesota, indicated to me that the team was going to have a problem. He may be the $184 million man but that was why he needed to be a leader and do what would have been expected of other players. (Plus, it would have been a nice dog bone thrown to Rochester which was in the midst of a horrific season and due for negotiations over whether they would remain the Twins' AAA affiliate).

 

I normally like a manager who keeps a loose clubhouse as well but when you have situation that has degenerated into the "country club" atmosphere that seems to prevail with the Twins, you need someone who will put a stop to it and turn it around. Realistically, that person may be a short-term manager (just like corporate reorganizers are often interim-types) but once they "do the dirty" of ending the privilege, his successor may well be able to be a little more relaxed.

 

The problem with the Twins is that there isn't anyone to change the privileged culture that has seemingly developed.

[TheLeviathan]

Overall I think firing or not firing Gardy is a non-factor to the teams success. My bigger issue is how good ol boy, insulated, and resistant to new ideas/methods the organization is as a whole.

[Monkeypaws]

JB, you've thought longer and harder about this than me, so I'll tip my hat to ya.

 

Truth is, I like Gardy - I question his judgement sometimes, but I would have been happy to see Jack Morris replace Anderson as pitching coach.

[JB_Iowa]

JB, you've thought longer and harder about this than me, so I'll tip my hat to ya.

 

Truth is, I like Gardy - I question his judgement sometimes, but I would have been happy to see Jack Morris replace Anderson as pitching coach.

 

Thank you. I really don't hate Gardenhire. I've wanted him to leave on his own since about August last year. I think he could again be successful somewhere else. And I think the Twins need a new perspective. I really hoped he would take a different manager's job elsewhere because I thought it would be win-win for both the team and him. But he seems stubborn to me. Maybe it will work and he'll again have success with the Twins but there's a greater likelihood that 2014 and 2015 will be two more really long seasons. (I also worry about his health but that's another question altogether).