Rosenthal: Sources say Gardenhire is back on a two-year deal

[glunn]

This is actually a very valid point. From what I've read, the Twins don't have a Black or Latino coach in the system above A ball, nor any Black or Latino veteran ballplayers on their big league club any more? Admins do you want to take a crack at explaining this for us?

 

Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

 

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

 

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

[CharacterGroove]

Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

 

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

 

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

 

Is it accurate that the Twins do not have a Black or Latino coach in their system above A ball?

[nicksaviking]

I don't know why I would even dip my toe into this pool, but I sincerely doubt the orgainzation is run by bigots. Well not since Calvin Griffith sold the team anyway. The problem is that they are an old boys club, they like to hire and promote from within and avoid stepping outside their comfortable zone by hiring with familiar faces. It just happens that the club has a lot of white faces. Jake Mauer, Doug Mientkiewicz, Tom Brunansky, Terry Steinbach. These guys are already Twins family. If Jacque Jones or Eddie Guardado came looking for jobs, the Twins would likely consider them strongly.

[CharacterGroove]

I don't know why I would even dip my toe into this pool, but I sincerely doubt the orgainzation is run by bigots. Well not since Calvin Griffith sold the team anyway. The problem is that they are an old boys club, they like to hire and promote from within and avoid stepping outside their comfortable zone by hiring with familiar faces. It just happens that the club has a lot of white faces. Jake Mauer, Doug Mientkiewicz, Tom Brunansky, Terry Steinbach. These guys are already Twins family. If Jacque Jones or Eddie Guardado came looking for jobs, the Twins would likely consider them strongly.

 

I have no interest in a conversation regarding baseless accusations of bigotry.

 

If that statement is accurate, however, then it does suggest the "old boys club" (not in the racial sense of the term) mentality that you reference, and to me, that is a problem.

 

The organization should make every effort to fit their coaches to the players they have towards the pursuit of helping those players develop. If the Twins Way is instead to reward friends and colleagues for their hard work and/or loyalty, then that's a systemic problem.

[ScottyB]

I think Bobby Cuellar is above A level. And when we say above A level, there are only six coaching positions between AA and AAA. At the two A level clubs, their six coaches include Tommy Watkins and Ivan Arteaga, an African American and a Venezuelan. Admittedly, there could be more, but it's not totally empty.

[CharacterGroove]

I think Bobby Cuellar is above A level. And when we say above A level, there are only six coaching positions between AA and AAA. At the two A level clubs, their six coaches include Tommy Watkins and Ivan Arteaga, an African American and a Venezuelan. Admittedly, there could be more, but it's not totally empty.

 

Thanks. I believe Bobby Cuellar was born in Texas, so I'm not sure what he qualifies under or whether he serves the intended purpose - particularly as a 60-year-old bullpen coach at the MLB level.

 

I don't think it's wise to put too much emphasis on the issue, but considering the makeup of baseball talent, it's hard for me to understand why there wouldn't be at least one Latino on every coaching staff in the minors.

 

If the team has considered the void and determined that it's meaningless. Okay. If they'be disregarded the fact that this could be an issue and/or detriment, then it's symptomatic of a larger issue within the organization. Most likely being a hiring policy that seeks to reward candidates rather than tailoring the hire towards the goals of the position.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Kob's post was patently incorrect (considering that the Twins have fired more white guys than black guys) and inflammatory, so I deleted Kobs' post and awarded him an infraction.

 

Now you compound Kobs' trolling by implying that the Twins are racist with respect to Black and Latino players, despite the fact that most of their top prospects are Black and/or Latino, e.g. Buxton and Sano. I happen to agree that it would be wise for the Twins to look for greater ethic diversity in terms of coaches, but veiled and unsupported insinuations of racism are offensive and inflammatory.

 

We moderators are giving a lot of latitude in this thread, but if you want to talk about racial or ethnic discrimination then you are going to need to be factual and sensitive to the reality that accusations of racial/ethnic bias are inflammatory when they are based on conjecture.

 

I did not intend to imply racism, and I don't think I did. Also, I understand this thread is not the place to start an animated conversation on civil rights, which I understand would make the site admins uneasy and which is also not what I was trying to do.

 

In light of the last 3 seasons and yesterday's press conference, I think it's fair to open every aspect of the Twins organization to scrutiny. When owners of professional sports teams come hat in hand to the public for financial assistance, they are acknowledging that the team is a public good and worth having around. The team wants engaged fans. People in Twins Territory have a lot invested in the Twins even if it's just an emotional investment. It's hard for many of us to hear that there will be no personnel changes for the foreseeable future. We were Twins fans before Terry Ryan and Ron Gardenhire ever got here. This should be a results based business. If and when the Twins continue to lose, I think this only gets uglier, and no one wants that. In light of everything that's happening, each member of the public invested in this team has a right to respectfully challenge these decisions or non decisions.

 

So again, I didn't intend to inflame or make an accusation of racism against individuals inside the organization, I just wanted to defend a person's right to ask an uncomfortable question.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

 

I'm not trying to say that the past three years have been Smith's fault but if Smith was still in charge and got the expanded payroll he wanted (and likely needed looking at the current team) we may be in different circumstances.

 

However, when the ownership decided that they didn't want to fork out the extra money for the higher payroll that was going to be necessary for the Twins to right the ship in the short term, they kicked Smith to the curb and brought back Ryan. At this point, the downturn was inevitable IMO. Ryan is not trying to win now no matter what he says in public statements. He is trying to build another long time contender similar to the run the Twins had during Gardy's first 8-9 years as manager.

 

So ultimately my opinion is that this year's poor performance is the result of changing GM's at a critical point and the new GM changing the organizational approach for the short term (for the best interest of the team in the long term).

 

IMO if Smith was still the GM up until this point and could have spent up to around 125 million, the Twins could have put out a competitive club although the farm system wouldn't be nearly as deep as it is and the length of success remaining at the MLB level wouldn't last much longer.

[ThePuck]

The farm system, when Ryan took over from Smith, was top 10. Mother Hubbard's cupboard was hardly bare. It's gotten better MOSTLY due to us being so bad the last couple years so we could land guys like Buxton and Stewart.

 

And I'll maintain this belief until proven other-wise. Ryan's ultimate goal is to build a team to be competitive WITHIN THE DIVISION, and do it as cheaply as possible. This keeps fan interest, so fans keep showing up, and keeps payroll lower. This is why he keeps preaching meaningful games in September. How about some meaningful games in October...even better, late October...

[John Bonnes]

The farm system, when Ryan took over from Smith, was top 10. Mother Hubbard's cupboard was hardly bare.

 

FWIW, (and I don't have Baseball America's or Keith Laws 2011 organizational rankings handy) I don't think that's accurate. I seem to remember talking on GATG with Aaron at the beginning of last year (which was shortly after Ryan had been hired) about how the farm system was deemed below average. That isn't saying those services were accurate, but I don't remember the Twins being ranked Top 10 nationally when Ryan took over for Smith.

 

And I'll maintain this belief until proven other-wise. Ryan's ultimate goal is to build a team to be competitive WITHIN THE DIVISION, and do it as cheaply as possible. This keeps fan interest, so fans keep showing up, and keeps payroll lower. This is why he keeps preaching meaningful games in September. How about some meaningful games in October...even better, late October...

 

How would Ryan's actions vary if late October was the ultimate goal, rather than a division championship? It seems like you have something in mind.

[John Bonnes]

Just found the BA list for 2011. Turns out we were both wrong. The Twins ranked 12th:

 

BaseballAmerica.com: Prospects: Rankings: Organization Talent Rankings: 2011 Organization Talent Rankings

[ashbury]

Also, I understand this thread is not the place to start an animated conversation on civil rights, which I understand would make the site admins uneasy and which is also not what I was trying to do.

 

Speaking only as just one of several moderators: digressions are OK, and if they take on a life of their own then starting new threads would be appropriate. The challenge, on the topic in question, would be to keep the discussion about words and deeds, and not about assumptions and mindreading; as always, this would apply to public figures and fellow posters alike.

 

The site admins get uneasy about asshattery, not about uncomfortable topics if they pertain to the Twins.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

My last post was mostly clarifying that I am not blaming Smith on the bad year in 2013. Anytime his name is brought up people just assume that someone is throwing him under the bus for poor decisions, bad trades, ect. ect. during his tenure as GM. I just think that his short term plan was way different from TR's is now. And IMO the differences in approach is the reason for the 90+ loss season this year.

 

I understand your pessimism when it comes to TR spending money. I hope you end up eating crow and he expands the payroll to add quality FA pieces to the roster as our young core comes up to the majors but I'm hesitant to fully believe this will happen. I think it is obvious we need starting pitching help (1 or 2 pitchers who slot in the 2-4 range would be an improvement over that terrible arms being sent out there the past 2 seasons). Ultimately I see next year being the final dagger in some of the graduated prospects in terms of whether they will remain.

 

To bring the conversation back to the topic at hand --> That leaves Gardy with 1 year left on his contract and (hopefully) a competitive roster, after the failed prospects are all weeded out next year, to see what he can do in 2015.

 

Also, on a slightly different aspect of Gardy as manager - I really think Anderson needs to be replaced as pitching coach. If that means Gardy has to go to do it, then so be it. I don't think we can upgrade at manager very easily but it's almost impossible to upgrade at pitching coach after the past 4 years of performance we've been seeing.

 

(Apologies for the short story length posts)

[ThePuck]

Ranking baseball?s farm systems

 

That was at the beginning of 2011..had us at #6.

 

Ranking the 30 Minor League Systems | FanGraphs Baseball

 

That had us 15th at the beginning of 2012.

 

2012 Baseball Farm System Rankings - Minor League Ball

 

Had us at 17th, so ever so slightly below average.

 

So, you are right...and thanks for the correction.

 

As far as the rest, I didn't even say division championship...I said competitive within the division. If a division chmpionship happens, awesome, but we've seen the team downgrade after having very good teams instead of getting aggressive to get the pieces to push us over the top (especially after the 2006 and 2010 seasons). They were so good, surely we can cut some talent down and still stay competitive in the division, seemed to be what they were saying.

 

In any event, don't wait until the supposed right time to get talent. Don't think one part of the diamond is covered so we don't need to pursue talent there. How many times have we read we don't need OF help? WHY?

 

Look at the Tigers. They could have said we have two very good starting pitchers why go get more, but they go after more and more great starting pitching...the kind that's looking towards the playoffs. Their #6 pitcher would likely be our #1. Same thing with position players. Owner says go get Fielder, they get him. Go get Hunter. Go get. They wanted a team that is built to truly compete in the playoffs. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but the effort is there. Now, understand, I get the whole thing that, somehow, we don't have the same fund available to us that Detroit has, but the effort is there. That owner wants a W Series winner, and it shows.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

Late October baseball would be pretty amazing. I wouldn't mind not being able to feel my toes at a Twins game that wasn't in April!

[LaBombo]

How would Ryan's actions vary if late October was the ultimate goal, rather than a division championship? It seems like you have something in mind.

Maybe you can repost or even revisit your interesting 'Twins' Binary Hope' article from last fall. There was an ongoing discussion about the relative merits of the two philosophies of reloading quickly and trying to be competitive in as many seasons as practical (the 85 win way) vs. accepting an extra down year or two to build the best team practical (the 95 win way).

 

Another tough season for the 85 win way, with no team reaching the playoffs with fewer than 90. The lowest win totals in the AL and NL to avoid sudden death were 93 and 92.