Rosenthal: Sources say Gardenhire is back on a two-year deal

[ThePuck]

We need to stop short-changing how bad it's been the last 3 years. it's three consecutive seasons of 96 or more losses. 90+ makes is seem less futile than it's actually been

[LaBombo]

Sure we could have gone out and spent another 20-30 million last offseason but with all the holes we have seen this year does anyone actually think that would have bought us a World series ring this year? I'm guessing 20 million in players maybe gets us to 75-80 wins at best.

Since the Twins have stated that unspent salary budget doesn't carry over, it would seem that it's simply a choice between even just 75 wins or a team that frequently had fans looking for the nearest eye wash station for a third straight year. Gotta go with the latter...

[Thegrin]

On the other side of the coin, the most recent managers that I can think of that had a string of three straight awful season and eventually righted the ship was Bruce Bochy eight years ago when he was in San Diego and of course TK well over a decade ago.

 

In short, there are plenty of instances of a new manager getting a club back on track and very few where the existing manager was able to do it. There may be little explanation but it isn't as blind of a move as you imply.

 

Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

[old nurse]

Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

In regards to Smith, other than sign Sano and trade for Pavano, did he do anything that in the end improved the Twins roster during his tenure?

[LaBombo]

It's easy to have Smith as the scapegoat...he's not in charge anymore.

If the prospects acquired on his watch turn out like we hope, most people including me will probably call it square and move on.

 

Or at least confine our bitterness to our individual most hated trade...

[ThePuck]

If the prospects acquired on his watch turn out like we hope, most people including me will probably call it square and move on.

 

Or at least confine our bitterness to our individual most hated trade...

 

and many will give Ryan all the credit and still scapegoat Smith...

[Mike Sixel]

They were in compete mode, not trade off players mode. The issue with this team is they have no players in their prime.......those players would have been acquired under the previous Ryan regime. Not even sure how this is debatable. It just is.

[Riverbrian]

I like Gardy and I always have... I don't believe that Gardy is at fault but I think it's time for a change. Improvement was supposed to be the test. Pitching was a little better but not enough. With the exception of Brian Dozier... The offense took 4 giant steps back. I don't care about 84 losses or 90 losses or 96 losses or 140 losses. This team did not improve at all according to what my eyes saw. I can't look at 2013 and say that improvement happened. I don't think anyone can. The K totals and lack of power and lack of speed and lack of the little things was stunning. I don't care if they lose as much as some... But I would appreciate looking a little better while losing at the very least.

 

I like to think that I have patience and I like to think that I recognize a problem that won't be solved overnight. However... I support an immediate culture change in the Twins clubhouse... It has been said that culture change is the strong and slow boring of hard boards.

 

It's even harder if you continue to use the same tools to strongly and slowly bore those boards.

[snepp]

Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

 

Or better?

 

 

Those following the Mariners closely on a daily basis would surely disagree. He's been piling up lousy decisions on top of even lousier decisions.

[nicksaviking]

Very few managers are allowed to stay long enough to turn around a bad team. They are fired before they have the chance. Eric Wedge would have gotten the same or better results from this Cleveland team.

 

But there is no evidence to support that. There is proof that Terry Francona did get better results from that team. Aside from the fact that it was Manny Acta who managed Cleveland last season, we can say with certainty that their front office may have fired a blameless manager but it worked, and it is working in many instances for many other teams.

[Willihammer]

Why didn't they just extend Gardy last offseason? Ryan was looking for improvement, and didn't get it. What does Gardy have to do to get himself fired, win the World Series?

[jokin]

In regards to Smith, other than sign Sano and trade for Pavano, did he do anything that in the end improved the Twins roster during his tenure?

 

Smith was overall a very bad hire (based on the strong recommendation of Terry Ryan, I might add- and still remains Ryan's "special assistant"), but he made dramatic inroads in the international market, how can you dare minimize the incredible effort involved in signing Sano?

 

Since you asked, here are other key acquisitions during his tenure:

 

Kyle Gibson

Eddie Rosario

Santana

Kepler

Dozier

Tonkin

Tyler Jones

Hicks

Diamond

Thielbar

Herrmann

Albers

Achter

Harrison

Wimmers

Darnell

Landa

Lo

 

That's 7 potential starting position players and 10 (mostly) potential upside arms.

 

 

Major leaguers acquired (but unsuccessfully removed from the roster for actual commensurate value)

JJ Hardy

RA Dickey

Craig Breslow

Jim Thome

Carl Pavano

Delmon Young

[jokin]

Or better?

 

 

Those following the Mariners closely on a daily basis would surely disagree. He's been piling up lousy decisions on top of even lousier decisions.

 

And he got out just before the boom was about to (deservedly) drop on him.

[John Bonnes]

Why didn't they just extend Gardy last offseason? Ryan was looking for improvement, and didn't get it. What does Gardy have to do to get himself fired, win the World Series?

 

I don't think you meant it this way, but I'll twist your point a little: Since Ryan gave Gardy a team that even Ryan had to know wasn't going to be competitive, why not give Gardy an extension last year? The bottom line was that this team wasn't going to be good and there are several data points that support that, like the Vegas over-under lines on season wins. When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.

[Mike Sixel]

So Ryan knew they were not going to be good this year? Because that's not what he has said in numerous interviews before and during the season, and even recently. He said they'd be competitive, and that he was disappointed how bad the offense was.....that it was much worse than he expected.

[jokin]

I like Gardy and I always have... I don't believe that Gardy is at fault but I think it's time for a change. Improvement was supposed to be the test. Pitching was a little better but not enough. With the exception of Brian Dozier... The offense took 4 giant steps back. I don't care about 84 losses or 90 losses or 96 losses or 140 losses. This team did not improve at all according to what my eyes saw. I can't look at 2013 and say that improvement happened. I don't think anyone can. The K totals and lack of power and lack of speed and lack of the little things was stunning. I don't care if they lose as much as some... But I would appreciate looking a little better while losing at the very least.

 

I like to think that I have patience and I like to think that I recognize a problem that won't be solved overnight. However... I support an immediate culture change in the Twins clubhouse... It has been said that culture change is the strong and slow boring of hard boards.

 

It's even harder if you continue to use the same tools to strongly and slowly bore those boards.

 

RB, you started out your post with a complete exoneration of Gardy, but then went on to state areas where he does have some responsibility for improving. Gardy kept complaining game after game about poor or gaffe-tastic base-running decisions (and that doesn't include complete laziness or cluelessness by multiple instances when simply sliding into a base would have resulted in a run scored or a player being safe), failure to protect the plate with 2 strikes, throwing to the wrong base, calling out veteran players in an effort to establish some team leadership, accountability and sense of urgency and appeal to their manhood, etc.

 

As far as your excellent metaphor goes, a wordsmith was on the radio this afternoon right after the press conference and came up with The Word that typfies best the MN Twins culture:

 

hidebound

 

adj.

 

unwilling or unable to change because of tradition or convention.

 

 

Combining this word with your metaphor, what with the current "tools" in place, that hide is far too bound up to get bored successfully anytime soon.

[LaBombo]

When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.

And yet virtually every other organization in baseball has done so when their manager has lost this many games in three years, with identical outcomes from those evaluations.

[darin617]

http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/kid_freak_out.gif

 

Has there been a statement released by the Twins stating that all coaches are being brought back? This is the biggest joke ever if it proves to be true.

But look on the bright side, the Twins claim they are willing to spend money this year to improve this dreadful team.

[jokin]

And yet virtually every other organization in baseball has done so when their manager has lost this many games in three years, with identical results.

 

Situations this dire usually mean they don't get the chance to even make it to 3 years of managing futility, let alone retain the entire coaching staff, as well.

[Shane Wahl]

Situations this dire usually mean they don't get the chance to even make it to 3 years of managing futility, let alone retain the entire coaching staff, as well.

 

Exactly. There is absolutely no accountability here and the defenses here are generally pretty alarming. The players "like Gardy"--well they are on a MLB roster, for one thing. Two, saying bad things about a manager when they DIDN'T KNOW his status would be dumb as hell. Three, who cares? Am I to really believe that a player with a brain like Joe Mauer doesn't have his eye on other managers? I couldn't care less if Clete Thomas, Mike Pelfrey, and Anthony Swarzak love the manager to death.

[old nurse]

But there is no evidence to support that. There is proof that Terry Francona did get better results from that team. Aside from the fact that it was Manny Acta who managed Cleveland last season, we can say with certainty that their front office may have fired a blameless manager but it worked, and it is working in many instances for many other teams.

Terry Francona had a very different team from the one that Manny Acta managed ( I might state the obvious, also a very different team than the one Eric Wedge managed in 09). Unless you think that adding Swisher, Kazmir and Born had no positive effect for the team and that the trades were just shuffling similar players back and forth. The 2012 and 2013 Indians are vastly different teams.

[Thrylos]

I don't think you meant it this way, but I'll twist your point a little: Since Ryan gave Gardy a team that even Ryan had to know wasn't going to be competitive, why not give Gardy an extension last year? The bottom line was that this team wasn't going to be good and there are several data points that support that, like the Vegas over-under lines on season wins. When you give a manager a bad team, it is very hard to evaluate a manager on his results.

 

Let me twist your point a bit:

 

if a General Manager does not give a manager a team to compete, then he does not do his job and should be accountable for this, correct?

 

Cannot have it both ways.

 

Ryan and/or Gardenhire should be fired if there were a single bone of accountability in this organization.

[TheLeviathan]

If Gardy kept his job because Ryan knows he gave him a crap roster, then Ryan is the problem. Some would agree to that, but many here want to defend both out of both sides of their mouth.

 

Personally, I think Ryan's delusions about meaningful September games is far more the issue than Gardy.

[jokin]

Terry Francona had a very different team from the one that Manny Acta managed ( I might state the obvious, also a very different team than the one Eric Wedge managed in 09). Unless you think that adding Swisher, Kazmir and Born had no positive effect for the team and that the trades were just shuffling similar players back and forth. The 2012 and 2013 Indians are vastly different teams.

 

Wait a minute, what about that chorus we heard about what a waste of time and fools errand it was for a 94-loss team like Cleveland to have done all this roster upgrading and quality-manager hire (who was instrumental in getting FAs to sign, and insisted on having a hand in the necessary upgrades) in search of a one-year turn-around to relevancy and legitimate competitiveness? Suppposedly, if we follow what the "stay the course" contingent profferred, what the Indians accomplished was neither possible or prudent.

 

They also said the manager doesn't make much of a difference to the W-L column anyway, the manager can't make bad players good, the manager is so well-respected he would be flooded with offers the day he was let go, amongst other myth-making mirth........

[jokin]

We need to stop short-changing how bad it's been the last 3 years. it's three consecutive seasons of 96 or more losses. 90+ makes is seem less futile than it's actually been

 

They've averaged 97 losses/year. During today's presser the owner actually openly mocked his manager in classic Minnesota passive-agressive style---TWICE--- in successive off-the-cuff comments during the press conference. Talk about a vote of confidence.........

 

4 dour faces/2 microphones/0 accountability.......

 

Tell me, how many fans, advertisers.....but even more importantly, agents and prospective players got any reassurances today that this thing is getting turned around any time soon?

[Guest USAFChief]

Does anyone have a link to view the press conference?

[Bark's Lounge]

Does anyone have a link to view the press conference?

 

Hey Chief. I have not found the full press conference on the interwebs. I did watch it when it aired today at 2:30. It was in all so many words towing the company line and during the Q&A portion of the Press Conference Jim Pohlad made a few jokes. (1.) about having the ability to get Ron his 1,000 victory in the next 2 years and (2.) some kind of joke about Gardy wearing a moo moo (over my head). Meh.

 

This is the link to Gardenhire's statement at the beginning of the press conference on MLB.com.

 

Video: Ryan, Gardenhire on extension for Twins skipper | MLB.com

[howeda7]

I'm OK with this, only because it keeps Terry Ryan on the hook for 2014. If they made the move to Molitor, it would be starting the 3-year window all over again. If Terry Ryan follows through on his threat to be inactive in FA again and we stagger though another 90 loss season with a horrible pitching staff, he should be fired right along with Gardy a year from now.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Look, if they had any more black coaches to fire, they would! What do you want them to do, fire a white guy? That's not the Twins' Way.

 

This is actually a very valid point. From what I've read, the Twins don't have a Black or Latino coach in the system above A ball, nor any Black or Latino veteran ballplayers on their big league club any more? Admins do you want to take a crack at explaining this for us?

[glunn]

I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

 

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

 

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

 

John, your argument is logical, but even if Gardy is a good manager and difficult to replace, I believe that the Twins would benefit from some new blood and fresh perspectives, preferably from a new manager who has worked inside an organization that has had great success with a low budget, such as the Rays or the A's.

 

My personal sense is that Gardy is not a great manager, but even if he is, it seems to me that the Twins have been developing a losing mentality and maybe some players are no longer listening to Gardy and his staff. I have no evidence of this other than watching a lot of continuing mediocrity on the field, but obviously a lot of us feel that Gardy is not doing a great job.

 

In my mind, there is lots of room for debate about Gardy's competence and effectiveness, but after watching three years of dreck, I am ready for some new blood, or at least some different variety of dreck.