Rosenthal: Sources say Gardenhire is back on a two-year deal

[ThePuck]

Come on. No one is actually surprised Gardy wasn't fired by Ryan, are they?

[JB_Iowa]

Come on. No one is actually surprised Gardy wasn't fired by Ryan, are they?

 

Not surprised. I've been hoping since August 2012 that Gardenhire would see the light and go to a different team. That he really did care about the well-being of the franchise and could acknowledge that a change would be best for the team.

 

AND, as Tom Powers wrote this weekend, that a different opportunity would be the best thing for him, too.

[S.]

Not surprised, but that's certainly not stopping me from being pissed off about it.

 

I've said it before, but we're completely stagnant at this point. So much failure, so many problems, and we dont change a damn thing. Coaching staff stays the same. FA approach stays the same. Terrible pitching mentality stays the same. Awful team stays the same.

 

I've watched/listened to probably 120+ games each of the last three seasons, but unless we make some big changes this offseason, I can't really say I see much point to doing the same in 2014 when I could just watch games that my fantasy players are playing in and actually have the opportunity to see some decent baseball occasionally.

[Kobs]

Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:

1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet. We entered the season. We entered the season thinking this was a 65-70 win team, and they were, and that lies on the head of Terry Ryan more than anyone. He didn't do what needed to be done to improve the team by signing free agent pitching and that was the primary source of problems.

 

2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it. I"m as upset about those playoff years as anyone, but I don't see why they should be laid at Gardy's feet anymore than they should be laid at the feet of Ryan or the players or the umpires or the MLB schedulers.

 

I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span. I think we have a good one. It might be a good one that has overstayed his usefullness, but this year's assortment of dreck wasn't going to test that one way or the other. I'll give it at least one more year.

 

Despite only having numbers from 2007, I can pretty confidently say that Garden hire is one of the ten highest paid managers in baseball. If one is going to argue that managers don't impact the game, how silly is it to be allocating what is likely the highest percentage of your payroll to that role in the league?

[rickyriolo]

The Twins will be terrible for at least 2 more years anyway. So after 2 more 90+ losing seasons in 2014 & 2015, Gardy will be kicked upstairs and they replace him with Dougie baseball. All part of the plan

[FanFanatic]

Actually, I'm not surprised by the offer of a new contract for Gardy. I expected it actually. I believe when the entire story is told, that Gardy probably demanded that his coaching staff be retained as part of the deal. Gardy has shown loyalty to his staff, his players, and the organization. As to whether this is the best move...well that will give us plenty to discuss over the next year. I'm OK with this result, although I would have preferred an Anderson retirement. I guess I'm a little sick of "pitch to contact" as the guiding principle of our staff.

[pierre75275]

Gardy....ok fine. But Rick Anderson really needs a new line of work. I remember reading a article on Glen Perkins and he was asked what the worst advice he was ever given was. He said rick anderson told him to throw his change up more

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Come on give Gardenhire some credit for those years and maybe he can win with an established lineup. But where are we now?

 

2) The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing? The only decision that he ever made in the playoffs that I remember vehemently disagreeing with was letting Nathan go back out in the 12th(?) inning in Game 2 of 2004(?). That's it.

 

2004 playoffs? This is what caught my eye about your post. How about running Silva out for game three instead of veteran Mulholland -- Silva never had a chance. There are surely other mistakes but my memory stretches. He did abuse his bullpen throughout 2008-2010 seasons which perhaps contributed to the failure of those post-seasons.

 

Gardenhire is not an X's and O's manager -- he admits he shoots from the hip. Couple things in particular: he doesn't know how to use a pinch runner or make substitutions (defense defense defense!) in late innings.

 

He has always constantly shuffled the lineup -- opposite of Tom Kelly.

 

He is an intense competitor -- opposite of Tom Kelly's "not too high, not too low" approach.

 

He no longer has the ear of the clubhouse, hard to get that back once you've lost it. Of course he's likable, I'd probably like playing for him, but what else are the players going to say?

 

He can't pull a team out of a losing streak.

 

Yet he plays favorites and names names.

 

There is zero evidence he has the patience to develop young talent.

 

"I don't know how many times we can beat it into these guys heads" seems to be his favorite expression.

 

The next prospects are always just beyond the horizon. Like Hicks and Gibson were last year. Valencia/Plouffe/Revere before that. Neither Buxton or Sano or Rosario pitch. We need to get Diamond and Gibson figured out before we send Meyer and May to the same fate.

 

"There's always next year." What year would it have been good to make a change at skipper? This year? Last year? Never?

 

I write this hoping that the reports are wrong and that Ryan has offered Gardenhire a contract he can't refuse/accept, in other words, letting Gardenhire turn down the offer, so that we can finally move forward again. If Gardenhire was no longer managing here next year, we all agree that he'd be fine, and find another job, right?

[ThePuck]

"We haven't had the success we've been looking for," Ryan said. "No one is passing the buck other than that we know where we're at and we know where we want to get. And unfortunately, we're just not there.

 

 

"But we're closer than people believe. But it's tough to explain that in September when we're 25 games behind the Detroit Tigers."

[StormJH1]

I could ramble quite a bit on this, so I'll try and state my opinion once and be concise:

 

I kind of agree with the "Gleeman position" on Gardy and managers in general, which is that they aren't nearly as important as the talent on the field. Despite all logic telling me that a manager (or at least a freaking pitching coach) should get fired after 3 terrible seasons, I can't say that 2013 was Gardy's fault, so I can't really say he should be fired.

 

BUT...if neither Gardy or Anderson is held accountable for the on-field product, and the front office seems so secure in their jobs and their freedom to continue with the way they do business (which includes no indication of any desire to explore expensive free agents as at least a partial solution to the on-field ineptitude)...then how is this a tenable situation going forward?

 

I'm more angry at the front office than Gardy because I can't even imagine an alternative approach that Gardy could have taken to get this team to 80 wins this year. On the other hand, there are a number of ways this front office could have changed in the past, or going forward, that could have resulted in a better product, and they just refuse to do it because they know their way is right.

 

There is a culture of losing brewing on this team, and it will only become more entrenched the longer all of the actors involved feel free to pursue "business as usual". At the end of the day, "fault" isn't the only thing that matters. You have to do something to enact change before you are entitled to receive it.

[JB_Iowa]

There is a culture of losing brewing on this team, and it will only become more entrenched the longer all of the actors involved feel free to pursue "business as usual". At the end of the day, "fault" isn't the only thing that matters. You have to do something to enact change before you are entitled to receive it.

 

Very well stated. I think this is where so many of us are at. We may not be big Gardenhire lovers but we aren't haters either. But it is simply mind-boggling that no changes are being made in the field staff of the major league club.

[LastOnePicked]

The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing?

 

Can I ask for a moratorium on this strawman argument.? We aren't just saying that Gardy hasn't won in the playoffs, it's that the team didn't even appear competitive in the playoffs. We did not expect a World Series title; we expected the team to give the competition a run for their money, rather than turn themselves into an "E-Z Pass." If that isn't Gardy's responsibility, then I have no idea why teams even keep a manager on staff during the postseason.

[chopper0080]

What a joke and an insult to the fans. Removing Gardy was less about Gardy as a manager and more about holding individuals in the organization responsible for not doing their jobs well. Whether Gardy had the talent to win or not should have been irrealevant. The message that this sends across the organization is a total joke. It's either "Our GM has done a crappy job getting talent on this roster so Gardy gets a pass" OR "Gardy was good years ago and we are comfortable with him so the actual wins and losses don't matter." Neither of those messages are good for an organization. Hopefully local fans respond with the appropriate decrease in ticket purchases.

[Twins Daily Admin]

Very well stated. I think this is where so many of us are at. We may not be big Gardenhire lovers but we aren't haters either. But it is simply mind-boggling that no changes are being made in the field staff of the major league club.

 

I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

 

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

 

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

[John Bonnes]

I'm not picking on you with this response, but it seems indicative of many of the threads. To sort of combine them, the argument seems to be "Well, they have to do SOMETHING, so let's try this."

 

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

 

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

 

Sorry guys, this is me. I was under the wrong ID doing some stuff on the site and responded before I put it under mine.

[S.]

But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

The problem (for me) is that it's not a step in any direction if we retain him. It's staying in the same place we've been in. I'd rather we risk taking a step that has the potential to be in the right direction than just standing in place and twiddling our thumbs and hoping if we twiddle hard enough it'll somehow move us in the right direction.

[Mike Sixel]

I am not a Gardy believer, never have been. so, it isn't about "change for random moves' sake" to me.

 

Also, there is plenty of organizational research (and specifically in the NFL, not sure about MLB) that indicates after a time, leadership changes are important and needed.

[ThePuck]

I am not a Gardy believer, never have been. so, it isn't about "change for random moves' sake" to me.

 

Also, there is plenty of organizational research (and specifically in the NFL, not sure about MLB) that indicates after a time, leadership changes are important and needed.

 

I've wanted him gone since around August 2007...I guess I'll be waiting even longer.

[JB_Iowa]

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

 

There is a difference between Gardenhire being a good manager for ANY team and a good manager for THIS team.

 

There are times when a leader becomes ineffective in a particular situation. It is part of the reason for things like term limits and moving ministers after a certain number of years, etc. And frankly, the players' comments as reported elsewhere make me VERY concerned that they are all just too complacent and unwilling to change.

 

That DOESN'T mean that same person can't go into a different situation and be a very effective leader elsewhere.

 

All situations are not the same -- and after more than 10 years in the same situation, many leaders become stale.

 

This franchise is stuck in a rut. They need someone to get out and try pushing the car in a different direction -- or at the very least, throw down some new gravel. That isn't likely when they all enjoy being in each other's company so much that they just want to stay in the car.

[John Bonnes]

The Twins just sent this out....

 

Twins agree to contract extension with Gardenhire

 

The Minnesota Twins announced today that they have agreed with Manager Ron Gardenhire to a two-year contract extension, through the 2015 season.

 

Gardenhire, 55, was named manager of the Twins on January 4, 2002. He has a career record of 998-947 (.513) as a major league manager, and trails only Tom Kelly on the Twins All-Time win list (1,140). Gardenhire earned the American League Manager of the Year award in 2010 and was named by fellow Managers as The Sporting News Manager of the Year that season.

 

In addition, the Twins coaching staff will be invited back for the 2104 season.

[Mike Sixel]

Well, there goes part of what I hoped would happen......let's hope they add some good players.....

[LaBombo]

Not too surprising that he'll be back, given the team's strong finish and the way they rallied around Gardy to get him his 1000th win...

[nicksaviking]

I understand the sentiment, but either one makes a good move or a bad move - it doesn't switch from one to the other just because the Twins stink. Certainly, we wouldn't praise a move that that we think is a bad move just because it is "something." We wouldn't say the Twins should ditch Buxton because it's "something." It's a bad move, whether the Twins are bad or not bad.

 

I don't know how firing Gardy is any different. If you think he's a good manager (and thus, difficult to replace) then not firing him is a good move. If you don't, it's a bad move. But firing him just because you don't know what else to do seems silly. It's as likely to be a step in the wrong direction as it is in the right direction, right?

 

I think this is what many disagree with. No one wants to blindly make a knee-jerk decision but there is plenty of recent precedent for just such manuevers. Just to name a few among many, the Orioles, A's and Indians replaced just as blameless managers who seemingly had little talent to work with. These teams immediately showed more fire and won more games under new leadership. The fact that we can't exactly pinpoint the reason for the turnaround would be a fair discussion, but it's fact that these teams performed better with a new voice in the clubhouse. Just because the variables are intangible doesn't mean there isn't a reason it has worked.

 

On the other side of the coin, the most recent managers that I can think of that had a string of three straight awful season and eventually righted the ship was Bruce Bochy eight years ago when he was in San Diego and of course TK well over a decade ago.

 

In short, there are plenty of instances of a new manager getting a club back on track and very few where the existing manager was able to do it. There may be little explanation but it isn't as blind of a move as you imply.

[BabyJesusBuxton]

Honestly, after the offseason moves made by TR I was pretty confident that Gardy would be back for at least another year. His track record is pretty impressive when looking at the rosters he was working with. I don't think the downfall is Gardy's fault as much as it is due to the organization emptying the cupboards during the Bill Smith years and then reverting back to building through the system instead of free agency which obviously was Smith's intent before he was replaced.

 

Gardy's playoff record is pretty terrible but I think he has minimal impact on those outcomes. A manager can definitely make poor decisions and cost a game by waiting too long to pull a pitcher, not bunting to advance runners, etc. but ultimately playoff success is on the players performing in October and the team roster (Front Office).

 

I'm going to be honest, the past 3 seasons have been BRUTAL, especially as a season ticket holder. With that said, I like what Terry Ryan is trying to do. He has stated that his plan isn't to try and have a "competitive" club every year, but rather to win World Series every year. Sure we could have gone out and spent another 20-30 million last offseason but with all the holes we have seen this year does anyone actually think that would have bought us a World series ring this year? I'm guessing 20 million in players maybe gets us to 75-80 wins at best. I don't mind him trying to give Gardy one last shot when some of the reinforcements graduate to the majors.

[Mike Sixel]

Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

[ThePuck]

Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

 

It's easy to have Smith as the scapegoat...he's not in charge anymore.

[gunnarthor]

Ugh, more it is all Smith's fault talk, as if Ryan and the staff was not here, as if anyone drafted by Smith (they did still draft then, right, they didn't just do FA?) would even be a starter right now....this is not on Smith. Smith did not empty the (already barren) farm system and trade off prospects (1 guy).

 

No, this isn't on Smith. Smith took over and built toward that 2010 team. The 08-09 teams saw a bunch of younger players come up and get playing time. Not all his moves worked but he certainly had a plan. Giving up Garza, Ramos and Bartlett and the unfortunately small actual return for Santana didn't help, of course.

 

The problem was many things but I think it's really two things - the 04-07 drafts were underwhelming and/or took a long time to develop. And then Delmon Young and Francisco Liriano failed to continue to develop as hoped/expected. But I think the drafting problems are mostly cyclical (although in 08 Deron Johnson was put in charge of it) - the Twins won't get a Buxton like talent unless they are at the top of the draft.

[drivlikejehu]

I just don't care. Who manages the Twins for the next couple years doesn't matter in the scheme of things.

[Ultima Ratio]

Don't really care about the 2-year extension at this point. Gardy is somewhere around problem number 38 on this team. Problems 37-34 are the other coaches and problems 1-33 are the replacement players on the 40-man roster.

[LaBombo]

Ultimately, I look at the two most quotes reasons to fire Gardy and dismiss them:

1) It's hard to look at the results of this team this year and lay them at Gardy's feet.

 

It's not just this year, it's three consecutive years of 90+ losses. Virtually every other non-expansion franchise in the past 30 years has started with a clean slate by hiring a new manager after a streak of futility like that.

 

The whole "Gardy didn't win in the playoffs" think confounds me. Is there any evidence whatsoever that managers impact this sort of thing?

Since everyone agrees managers affect the regular season to some extent, wouldn't the burden of proof be on those who believe they don't affect the playoffs?

 

At any rate, it isn't that his teams didn't win, it's that it appeared as though they failed to compete, just like they've failed to compete against the Yankees for over a decade.

 

As for specific impact on playoff games, BProp archives has a whole list of Gardy head-scratchers just from a single loss to the Yankees in 2004. Nobody is suggesting it was all or even mostly on Gardy, but it's hard to see how playoff performance isn't a black mark on Gardy's record.

 

I know there are some traits that people don't like about Gardy, but it's hard to overlook seven different Manager of the Year votes in a nine-year span.

 

It's actually really easy to overlook the MoY votes if you know the trick to it. All you have to do is imagine Derek Jeter playing shortstop in 2010 with just slightly more range than a fire hydrant, and then remember that somebody gave that guy a Gold Glove for it. Poof, MoY votes vanish in a puff of irrelevance.

 

Then you're left with a .513 win percentage, playoff embarrassments with two entirely different groups of players, an open disdain for "cybermetrics", and unconditional loyalty to a pitching coach whose value to the organization is highly questionable at best.

 

Yes, Gardy knows the fundamentals of the game, is popular with players and seems to do well at making the grind of 162 games easier for them.

 

But based on 30 years of history, in any other franchise he'd be gone. So by bringing him back, the Twins are either boasting that Gardenhire is a historically valuable manager, or admitting that they've fielded historically bad rosters three seasons running.

 

He's good and the players have been bad, but neither of those historical polar opposites of merit are right, and neither was the decision to bring Gardenhire back. The two year contract that concedes 2014 will be another exhibition season was just icing on the uranium yellowcake.