Article: Twins Must Shake Loser Mentality This Offseason

[Nick Nelson]

Terry Ryan's first rebuild was necessarily slow and painful because there was no money to spend. He's working in a different environment right now and should act like it. Taking a risk isn't the worst thing in the world.

[ThePuck]

I think you could make an argument that the Twins are in worse shape than the Indians, especially in terms of pitching.

 

Imagine how bad the pitching would have been if Ryan HADN'T done everything possible to significantly improve the starting pitching.

[Alex]

You do not change the culture of an organization by leaving all of the management in place.

 

This franchise is moribund.

 

The more I read from the manager and front office, the more I'd like to see a complete overhaul from the top down, not just limited to managers. Organizational philosophies come across as antiquated and the FO doesn't seem to see a reason to try to change it.

[Alex]

Imagine how bad the pitching would have been if Ryan HADN'T done everything possible to significantly improve the starting pitching.

 

I know. And it's so nice because of all the work he put in last year he doesn't have to do as much work this offseason. Oh.

[LaBombo]

Feel free to use your definition, I'll feel free to use mine. I say it was a continuation, but if there is a definitive law of where one rebuild ends and another starts under the same GM, please provide said link.

There's not much use in defining when rebuilding starts or ends if you don't define what rebuilding is.

 

If you believe the Twins have been rebuilding the past couple of seasons, then by default you're defining it as a process composed almost entirely of churning out nearly-100-loss seasons while waiting for prospects to gradually work their way up from the low minors.

 

The only significant rebuilding move that Ryan has made was to trade Span and Revere for pitching prospects. While commendable, it appears to have been as much about clearing the way for a prospect the organization wildly overestimated as it was about rebuilding, given that the team ended up with Clete Thomas in center for a good chunk of the season.

[darin617]

You can view the page at Twins Daily - Twins Must Shake Loser Mentality This Offseason

 

So then why did they resign Gardy and bring back all the coaching staff. Terry Ryan should have at least made Rick Anderson go away as part of the agreement before the 2yr mistake was signed.....

[LaBombo]

Every other organization in baseball would start a winner-mentality rebuild by dismissing the manager. That's not an opinion, just a matter of historical fact.

 

Here's the list of the other managers since The Second World War who've lost 90 or more games in three consecutive seasons and returned the following season:

 

Tom Kelly Twins 1997-1999 Not too surprising given Carl Pohlad's loyalty, the threat of contraction, and TK's two WS rings.

 

Felipe Alou Montreal 1998-2000 Like the Twins, the Expos faced contraction and were so wrecked by Loria that MLB was forced to buy them.

 

Larry Rothschild TB 1998-2000, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Joe Torre Mets 1978-1980 Graduated from player to plyr/mgr to manager in 18 days.

 

Darrell Johnson Seattle 1977-1979, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Preston Gomez San Diego 1969-1971, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Casey Stengel Mets 1962-1964 Year 4 of the Mets when he took over. 8 prior WS titles.

 

Zack Taylor StL. Browns 1948-1950 Veeck employee who managed Eddie Gaedel.

 

Of the non-expansion managers, only Stengel and his historically awful Mets lost more games in three years than Gardenhire's 293 and returned for another season.

 

What happened to these franchises in the season after the third consecutive 90-loss season? Every one of them lost at least 93 games if you project the '81 Mets strike-shortened season to 162. Even the non-expansion franchises managed a composite record of just 61-101.

 

What about the managers? Only three of the eight lasted the entire fourth season. Only Kelly even managed his team again, despite the 4th straight 90 loss season. In fact, the six managers not named Torre or Alou cumulatively managed only three full season in the majors before their careers ended.

 

The takeaway seems to be that nobody brings back a manager after they accumulate nearly 300 losses over three years, and if they do, they can expect to lose about 100 games and fire the manager during the season anyway.

 

So for the people who wished that the low talent level would buy Gardenhire more time, well, what is it they say about being careful what you wish for?

[Monkeypaws]

I hope Gardy and Andy watched David Price tonight. John Maddon showed how to not coddle a pitcher. Granted, he's a grade A stud, but still, I couldn't believe it when he came out for the 9th. I've been brainwashed....

[Alex]

Feel free to use your definition, I'll feel free to use mine. I say it was a continuation, but if there is a definitive law of where one rebuild ends and another starts under the same GM, please provide said link.

 

Everyone's free to use their own starting point.

 

However, if you want to start it when Ryan arrived, or even last year, we should really only be talking then about what he's done since that time and not before. And frankly, he hasn't done as much, but he's getting a ton of the the credit for a farm system.

 

2012: (+)Drafted Buxton. No doubt this was a great pick, but almost any pick was going to greatly improve their farm system since they were picking 2nd.

 

2013: (+) Meyer, May, Cole Stewart (-) Span, Revere. Definitely a trade that should pay off, but both Span and Revere were young enough to be part of a rebuild and their departure looks to have left what may be at least a 1-2 year hole in CF and at a clear cost to the major league club. Frankly, I don't know how much hope we should have for May to be a significant piece.

 

The rest of the bunch that looks to be a significant part of the rebuild had very little to do with Ryan. Sano, Rosario, Arcia, and Pinto, and only the latter two have tasted the big leagues at all.

 

So, in total at best, he's drafted two promising players and acquired one other via trade at significant cost to the major league club while the rest of the rebuild were brought in under different leadership.

 

If you take away the draft picks as completely his (because a high level of talent would have been added to the farm system regardless of who the GM was with two high picks), I think you're left with one promising young pitcher as the only current gain in the rebuild.

 

Meanwhile, the big league club has gotten worse.

[jokin]

I hope Gardy and Andy watched David Price tonight. John Maddon showed how to not coddle a pitcher. Granted, he's a grade A stud, but still, I couldn't believe it when he came out for the 9th. I've been brainwashed....

 

 

And unlike the Twins, the proactive Rays will end up getting a King's Ransom by moving Price in a way just like they did Shields, at maximum value. Which is why the current Twins management team aren't to be trusted with Meyer and Stewart.

[jokin]

Every other organization in baseball would start a winner-mentality rebuild by dismissing the manager. That's not an opinion, just a matter of historical fact.

 

Here's the list of the other managers since The Second World War who've lost 90 or more games in three consecutive seasons and returned the following season:

 

Tom Kelly Twins 1997-1999 Not too surprising given Carl Pohlad's loyalty, the threat of contraction, and TK's two WS rings.

 

Felipe Alou Montreal 1998-2000 Like the Twins, the Expos faced contraction and were so wrecked by Loria that MLB was forced to buy them.

 

Larry Rothschild TB 1998-2000, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Joe Torre Mets 1978-1980 Graduated from player to plyr/mgr to manager in 18 days.

 

Darrell Johnson Seattle 1977-1979, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Preston Gomez San Diego 1969-1971, the first three years of the franchise.

 

Casey Stengel Mets 1962-1964 Year 4 of the Mets when he took over. 8 prior WS titles.

 

Zack Taylor StL. Browns 1948-1950 Veeck employee who managed Eddie Gaedel.

 

Of the non-expansion managers, only Stengel and his historically awful Mets lost more games in three years than Gardenhire's 293 and returned for another season.

 

What happened to these franchises in the season after the third consecutive 90-loss season? Every one of them lost at least 93 games if you project the '81 Mets strike-shortened season to 162. Even the non-expansion franchises managed a composite record of just 61-101.

 

What about the managers? Only three of the eight lasted the entire fourth season. Only Kelly even managed his team again, despite the 4th straight 90 loss season. In fact, the six managers not named Torre or Alou cumulatively managed only three full season in the majors before their careers ended.

 

The takeaway seems to be that nobody brings back a manager after they accumulate nearly 300 losses over three years, and if they do, they can expect to lose about 100 games and fire the manager during the season anyway.

 

So for the people who wished that the low talent level would buy Gardenhire more time, well, what is it they say about being careful what you wish for?

 

Nice research, certainly gives prospective season ticket holders a lot to look forward to next year.

[jokin]

There's not much use in defining when rebuilding starts or ends if you don't define what rebuilding is.

 

If you believe the Twins have been rebuilding the past couple of seasons, then by default you're defining it as a process composed almost entirely of churning out nearly-100-loss seasons while waiting for prospects to gradually work their way up from the low minors.

 

The only significant rebuilding move that Ryan has made was to trade Span and Revere for pitching prospects. While commendable, it appears to have been as much about clearing the way for a prospect the organization wildly overestimated as it was about rebuilding, given that the team ended up with Clete Thomas in center for a good chunk of the season.

 

Don't forget about clearing the decks for Wilkin Ramirez in providing his laudable services, multi-task worthy indeed, both in the OF, and as a translator!.....(TR always finds a way to save a buck!)

[jokin]

Congratulations to the Indians for winning their last 10 games and making the play-offs. Obviously I don't know, but I view them as the flavor of the day, and I don't see anything that is sustainable. An OP referenced 7 articles in another thread, where the national media lauded our very own Twins for the strength of our farm system and progress made in the rebuilding effort.

 

And that OP in the other thread was quickly debunked, by just looking at the predictions made by the 2 most credible authors among the articles he referenced. Look to the local experts and Twins Daily if you want to be properly informed on the state of the Twins rebuild.

[Highabove]

Ryan has stated that Brian Duensing may return to the starting Rotation.

Ryan also stated that he would like to bring back Mike Pelfrey. "he had a descent year"

Is Ryan currently in the same World as everybody else??

[best game in the world]

I have to admit, when I saw Gardy walking out with his sun glasses under his chin for the news conference to accept a contract extension, my first reaction was RAGE. We as fans want to cast blame on the manager, I slept on it and I am past that. What I will not be able to forgive is taking "winner" from our crop of young talent (all the top kids have won at every level of the minors and before) and try to force them through the "twins way" cookie cutter. The extra coach had better be a great communicator. Go ahead and pump your fist, kick a water cooler, break a few unwritten rules. We needs wins!!

[ThePuck]

I heard something yesterday that I couldn't believe. I mean, I knew we had been very bad the last three years but I didn't realize our winning percentage in the 2nd half of 2011, 2012, and 2013 all started with a 3

 

Imagine how bad it would have been if the players HAD quit on Gardy...