Article: Catching No Longer an Option For Mauer

[mlhouse]

Although this does not have to do specifically with Mauer's concussion, baseball needs to outlaw the collision with the catcher at home plate. Since Pete Rose ruined Ray Fosse's career in a meaningless game, for some reason it is considered cool to run over the catcher at the plate. This causes injuries, and has been pushed down to lower and lower levels of baseball. Watching my 15 year old nephew get run over routinely at home plate is disgusting and not baseball.

 

The same needs to be done with the reckless slides at second on double play balls. A legitimate slide is disruptive to the double play pivot enough. Any further contact needs to automatically cause the runner's at a force out base to be out.

[Dman]

I am torn about moving Mauer to 1st. He has proven to be a good 1st baseman when playing there, but I like him better at catcher. I guess in the end I am fine either way but I was definitely in the camp to just keep him catching. Foul tip seemed like a bit of a freak thing to me. Can you get struck by lightning twice? He is valuable anywhere he plays and if Pinto can hit .260 or so and play decent defense then I guess that is OK.

[LaBombo]

Arguments in the vein of "Mauer provides more value relative to the competition at catcher than he would at another position" only make sense if you're playing fantasy baseball. Since the Twins currently have a batting order featuring crap, crud, and flotsam Mauer's position change does nothing to weaken this team. It only weakens his chances of making future All-Star games.

 

Of the 7 AL first basemen with 25 home runs or more, 2 (Davis and Carter) were acquired in minor trades, and 2 (Moss and Encarnacion) were initially cheap free agents. Trumbo was drafted in the 18th round. Only Dunn and Fielder cost their teams a ton of money (which the Twins will have anyway, and none of the 7 cost their team significant talent in a trade.

 

Pinto has been a pleasant surprise so far, but seems pretty safe to assume that a good GM who's serious about contending ought to be able to find a first baseman who can outhit Pinto sometime between now and when the team becomes competitive again.

[mlhouse]

As far as future position, I have always thought that Mauer should move to the outfield, specifically RF. He would have a tremendous arm and I have to believe his baseball instincts would really be valuable there. He might not be the fastest guy out there, but at 6-6 he would have lots of range and his arm would reduce bases against. If Chris Parmalee, Delmon Young, Jason Kubel, and Josh Willingham were sent out into the outfield, often with comical results, there is almost no way possible for Joe Mauer to do any worse.

[CGNikolic]

This makes too much sense. Move him to 1B now and enjoy having a healthy, sweet-swinging Mauer for the rest of his contract. We won't be competing next year anyway so whoever plays catcher next year will be irrelevant to our success, so a stopgap (not Doumit please) to play there until Pinto is ready with Herrmann as the backup makes perfect sense. A future lineup with Pinto at catcher, Mauer at first, Rosario at second base, Dozier/Santana/Goodrum/Polanco/Florimon at shortstop and Sano at third makes for a great infield in my book. The key to all of this though, is Mauer willing to make this move? Permanently?

[Teflon]

Pinto has been a pleasant surprise so far, but seems pretty safe to assume that a good GM who's serious about contending ought to be able to find a first baseman who can outhit Pinto sometime between now and when the team becomes competitive again.

 

Actually the GM will need to find a 1B who can outhit Mauer - not Pinto - since Pinto still ends up catching when Mauer takes another one off the noggin back there.

[ericchri]

As far as future position, I have always thought that Mauer should move to the outfield, specifically RF. He would have a tremendous arm and I have to believe his baseball instincts would really be valuable there. He might not be the fastest guy out there, but at 6-6 he would have lots of range and his arm would reduce bases against. If Chris Parmalee, Delmon Young, Jason Kubel, and Josh Willingham were sent out into the outfield, often with comical results, there is almost no way possible for Joe Mauer to do any worse.

 

I've been thinking the same thing. I guess it depends on who makes up the rest of the roster, but it seems possible that leads to a better defensive team next year than with him at 1st, as the prime candidates to man the corners right now might be Willingham and Arcia, neither of whom looks particularly good defensively. Of course this leads to needing to fill 1B with a legitimate hitter, but that seems doable.

[jimbo92107]

I'm still in the boat of playing him at catcher until it's obvious he can't physically handle it anymore. But during these lean years when we are awful I'd like to see them scale it back considerably to protect him for the long run.

 

Here's the problem with waiting "until it's obvious he can't handle it anymore." That means you're waiting until he has another concussion, and that could easily be the one that ends Joe Mauer's career.

 

When I was about ten years old, I got hit in the head with a hard-thrown baseball. I was pitching batting practice, and the guy in center field decided to show off his great arm by throwing it all the way back to me...while I was throwing another pitch to a batter.

 

I remember this: "Look out!"

 

"Wha---?"

 

A couple minutes later, the lights gradually came back on. I was done with baseball for that day.

 

Of course, that ball was probably going only about fifty miles per hour, but it hit me directly in the back of the skull. Pitches hitting Joe Mauer in the head are traveling 90mph or faster, blows that deliver far more energy than the ball that hit me. I've seen him get hit by three or more shots like that in one game.

 

A concussion is not like a bruise on your arm. It's more like damage to the delicate wiring that allows you to think and perform coordinated activities like running, throwing, hitting, and playing catch with your kids. Healing the damage to that wiring is a tricky business, and sadly, it doesn't always heal completely.

 

I don't want Joe Mauer to be forced out of baseball because of concussions, not like Corey Koskie was. I would much rather see him play 1st base or right field for another decade, maybe win another batting title, than see him get beat up even more behind the plate, especially when good defensive catchers aren't that hard to find. Move him out of there now, so we can watch Joe's beautiful swing for many more years.

[YourHouseIsMyHouse]

I think the Twins should keep Mauer behind the plate for the entirety of his career. He doesn't want to move and he shouldn't. He hardly has any value if you move him somewhere else. You all think this concussion thing is a big deal, but guess what? It's just as likely at any other position. Corey Koskie and Justin Morneau both got them. In your 30s, anything can ruin your career and I just don't see a significant risk reduction that offsets team value. I like Pinto a lot and I think he'll be a good player, but I wouldn't move Mauer just because of team depth. This is a HOF career guy and keeping him at catcher gives him more potential to seal the deal. Plus, I don't like the Twins paying 23 million for a slightly above average first baseman instead of an elite catcher.

[diehardtwinsfan]

OK seriously, people need to stop with the drama. I get the Mauer is a high paid asset. He's also paid high because he's a catcher, and a month of Pinto against September pitching is not going to change my mind, nor should it change anyone else's, that Mauer is first and foremost a catcher and the team's primary catcher at that.

 

I have no problems with them having a guy like Doumit or Pinto that can allow Mauer to spend time DHing or playing 1st, but his value is tied to being a catcher, and the success of the Twins next wave is going to largely depend on him being able to catch fairly consistently.

[TheLeviathan]

Move him out of there now, so we can watch Joe's beautiful swing for many more years.

 

I understand your point, but if he is that susceptible to another concussion it won't matter where we play him. The day may come when we protect him by moving him, but I don't think a switch made out of fear now, with no definitive replacement, sets this team back even further than it already is.

[D. Hocking]

I am leaning towards that it is time to make the move to first. I was kind of hoping he would get a couple more years as at least a part time catcher, but I think his window is closing, and the concussion does change my perception of what he should do.

 

However, I suspect (unless worst case scenario he still has symptoms in six months) he will do some catching next year, despite what some of the talking heads on the radio are predicting. On a petty note, one of the radio personalities, who I generally like but can be a bit smug and is act more like his opinion is the only worthwhile opinion (I guess that could be a few people...), I would not mind seeing his melt-down if he is wrong on this.

[jm3319]

I think the Twins should keep Mauer behind the plate for the entirety of his career. He doesn't want to move and he shouldn't. He hardly has any value if you move him somewhere else. You all think this concussion thing is a big deal, but guess what? It's just as likely at any other position. Corey Koskie and Justin Morneau both got them. In your 30s, anything can ruin your career and I just don't see a significant risk reduction that offsets team value. I like Pinto a lot and I think he'll be a good player, but I wouldn't move Mauer just because of team depth. This is a HOF career guy and keeping him at catcher gives him more potential to seal the deal. Plus, I don't like the Twins paying 23 million for a slightly above average first baseman instead of an elite catcher.

 

So a guy who usually is among league leaders in OBP, batting average, and OPS has "hardly any value"? That's shocking news to me. Please tell me, what exactly makes a player valuable if being really good at hitting a baseball and getting on base doesn't mean "value" to you? And don't say "he's overpaid" because the Twins have tons of payroll space and can cover the $23 million, no question.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

Nick,

 

I tend to enjoy and agree with your articles. Not this time. You write, "And here's another reality we must face: Mauer's days of catching are done."

 

Reality? Are you sure you want to name reality as a columnist/blogger, or would you be willing to defer to a neurologist? Not all concussions are alike. If Mauer is medically cleared to catch--just as football players are routinely medically cleared to return to full contact--why shouldn't he go back behind the plate?

 

As Twins fans, we have reason to be wary. Morneau and Cory Koskie are both cautionary examples of worst case scenarios. But even you admit that we just don't know much about concussions.

 

I'm glad that the Twins shut Mauer down. It makes perfect sense at the tail end of a 90 loss season. There was no need to rush him back. But if his doctors, his wife, his general manager, and his conscience tell him to catch again next spring--that's Mauer's reality. I will wait to hear that verdict. Until then, keep up the good insights Nick--even though I disagree with this one.

[Shane Wahl]

Don't Feed the Greed Guy,

 

Really? The centerpiece of the franchise suffers a conclusion a few weeks ago that is still clouding his experience, the Twins have recent experience with a complete Morneau meltdown, and yet moving him to first base isn't the OBVIOUS choice here? Mauer should be the third catcher. Moving him to first base is not the end of the world and, by the way, none of the other positions even make sense . . . 3B, RF, LF . . . all totally not worth considering. When Kennys Vargas and Dalton Hicks are truly knocking at the door, then considerations can be made. The WAR hit is legit, but it is mitigated by good performers at the catcher position and by replacing other pieces in the roster.

[glunn]

Moving him to first base is not the end of the world and, by the way, none of the other positions even make sense . . . 3B, RF, LF . . . all totally not worth considering.

 

In light of the fact that other posters stated their beliefs that RF might make sense, this is somewhat inflammatory. It would be better to preface something like this with IMO or IMHO so as to be more respectful. How would you feel if someone said moving him to 1B is "totally not worth considering" without giving any analysis of why they believe that.

 

Let's keep the debate lively, but with respect for other points of view.

[jokin]

I haven't been advocating one way or the other. I get that Mauer's value is higher when behind the plate but we knew the amount of time there would always diminish.

 

Question, though: there was always interest among some fans in Mauer going to 3rd instead of 1st. Do we now find that to be an impossibility? Has he aged out of playing 3B? Are we so sure that Sano will be at 3rd that we aren't even interested in trying Mauer there?

 

Joe Torre went to 3rd at the age of 30, and played 161 games at the position despite barely having played there ever before (just 73 games the previous year), and oh, BTW, he won the NL MVP award. We all know about Killebrew and Cabrera, so no, definitely not impossible, IMO, it should be the Twins first option for consideration. Moving Sano to an easier position would make his transition to the major leagues that much smoother.

[jokin]

Don't Feed the Greed Guy,

 

Really? The centerpiece of the franchise suffers a conclusion a few weeks ago that is still clouding his experience, the Twins have recent experience with a complete Morneau meltdown, and yet moving him to first base isn't the OBVIOUS choice here? Mauer should be the third catcher. Moving him to first base is not the end of the world and, by the way, none of the other positions even make sense . . . 3B, RF, LF . . . all totally not worth considering. When Kennys Vargas and Dalton Hicks are truly knocking at the door, then considerations can be made. The WAR hit is legit, but it is mitigated by good performers at the catcher position and by replacing other pieces in the roster.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't see your "mitigating good performers" at catcher. Pinto has gotten a great start to his major league career, but 23 games doesn't make him a shoo-in for 2014 (remember Parmelee 2 Septembers ago?). It looks like the "the book" is already identifying how to attack his hitting weaknesses- and he's definitely a work in progress behind the plate.

[jokin]

The Mauer to 3B thing never made sense, and it was never something given and credence by the Twins or by Mauer...

 

It's made a lot of sense and has gained a lot of credence in Oakland. Josh Donaldson is tied for the WAR lead among 3rd basemen with Miguel Cabrera at 7.7WAR- and that 7.7 WAR is the third-best WAR total in all of baseball. Much, much, much less chance for concussions, seems to make a lot of sense to me to strongly consider moving Mauer there for the majority of his games next year.

[Don't Feed the Greed Guy]

How about this angle...

 

Joe Mauer likes to catch. He's an elite athlete who turned down a potential career as a professional quarterback in order to play catcher. It's what he likes to do, and he has done so at the highest level for the last ten years. There is no position in baseball like being behind the plate, calling the game.

 

Mauer is not a cage rattling, fiery personality. He has a low key, understated quality, especially when interacting with the media. But he has been very outspoken regarding his desire to catch next year. Again, here's Mauer in his own words, three days ago, taken from an article by Tyler Mason of FSN:

 

"Mauer reiterated Monday that he still wants to catch.

 

"I have every intention of coming back and catching," Mauer said. "That's what I do. But right now I have to take care of this situation so I can. I look forward to getting out on the field next year as a catcher and whatever else they need me to do."

 

Catching is what Joe Mauer does. He likes to catch. He wants to catch, and he will catch if his mind and body allow it. Previous posters say, "move him to first base. Try him at third." Yes, the positions of Koskie and Morneau. Playing those postions sure protected those two from concussions... Hey, the man thinks he can catch at a high level for a few more years. He's good at it, and it sounds like the general manager is supporting him, saying things like, "that's his position." Let the man do what he wants to do. In this case, he wants to catch.

[cmathewson]

I don't know if having concussions qualifies me to have an opinion on them. But I have been through this several times, and I can't imagine catching after a severe concussion. I had to stop cycling after one because it caused me to get tentative and to second guess when in dangerous situations. It is so traumatic and debilitating that you subconsciously will do anything to avoid it ever happening again.

 

Those who have caught before know the hardest thing to get over is not flinching when someone swings. This will be doubly hard now that Mauer has had a serious brain injury. Minor ones like the one Doumit had this year aren't debilitating in the way seveer ones are. I would be surprised if he's even able to catch after this. I would be shocked if he tries it again.

[DJL44]

"Much, much, much less chance for concussions"

 

Not true. Based on this year's concussion DL numbers a catcher is 10x more likely to get a concussion. That is not much, much, much more.

[jokin]

"Much, much, much less chance for concussions"

 

Not true. Based on this year's concussion DL numbers a catcher is 10x more likely to get a concussion. That is not much, much, much more.

 

 

Uhhh......that's precisely why my post advocate's for the Mauer move to 3rd base. That's where he's "much, much, much less" liable to get a concussion.

[StormJH1]

I may have made this point on a different thread, but even several decades ago (Craig Biggio being my favorite example), if you were a catching prospect that had good speed, or happened to be a very good hitter, organizations would get them out from behind the plate early to prolong their career. I think it's safe to say that the cumulative effect of brain trauma on something as "benign" as a foul tip to the mask wasn't appreciated in the late 1980's as much as it is in 2013.

 

Joe Mauer is stubborn about wanting to do things his way (playing catcher, offseason routine, etc.), but he's also not Cal Ripken. We've seen time and time again that he will sit out if he's not 95% or better - either on his own decision or pressure from those making the $184 million investment. Even if he avoids more head trauma, which seems unlikely, the daily wear and tear on his knees and body are not going to help him as a hitter - it can only hurt. If a 1B/DH split meant 145 games per year of Mauer hitting instead of 120 games as a C/DH, don't you like that scenario better?

 

Ask yourself this, if Justin Morneau had originally been a catcher (and was really good at it), would you advocate moving him back behind the plate this year? If not, then why is the answer any different for Mauer. If you wait for him to have one or two more incidents like this, you've waited too long.

[StormJH1]

Uhhh......that's precisely why my post advocate's for the Mauer move to 3rd base. That's where he's "much, much, much less" liable to get a concussion.

 

Only if you know what you're doing...

 

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never thought of 3rd base as a position that's particularly easy on the body. It doesn't have a life span as short as, say, center field, but you can think of laundry list of 3rd basemen who had back problems and other ailments regularly in their careers as everyday 3rd basemen (Eric Chavez - back, Longoria - foot issues, Zimmerman - every body part). Now, that could be due to the fact that bigger guys play that position, and tend to break down. But at 6'5", Joe is also a "bigger guy". I really don't feel like 3rd base is either a long term solution, nor that it would keep him appreciably healthier over catcher (minus the foul tip aspect).

[stringer bell]

This has been an excellent debate with both "sides" making good points. Probably the underestimated part of this equation is the player himself. Joe Mauer is, as stated above, someone who likes to do the same thing over and over, perhaps to a fault. He was reluctant to even try to play first base and I would expect that he would be extremely reluctant to try to play a totally new position (3rd base or outfield corner). He is on the cusp of being a Hall of Fame catcher at 30 years of age and, I think, is reluctant to change some more. Mauer has to be on board with a position change or it won't happen. I expect that a medical warning that another foul ball to the mask might make him into Corey Koskie might have the effect of Mauer grudgingly accepting a first baseman's mitt full-time.

 

Beyond this, I think the Twins need to forcefully say that they want Mauer to change positions.

[Nick Nelson]

Reality? Are you sure you want to name reality as a columnist/blogger' date=' or would you be willing to defer to a neurologist? Not all concussions are alike. If Mauer is medically cleared to catch--just as football players are routinely medically cleared to return to full contact--why shouldn't he go back behind the plate? [/quote']

Unlike many, I have plenty of respect for the Twins' medical staff, but I don't believe they (or any doctors) know enough about concussions to make such a determination. These are the same docs who said they fully expected Mauer to be back sometime this year. It's the same staff that constantly insisted Morneau would be back long before he was, only to be befuddled by another inexplicable setback.

 

I don't see how any neurologist could convince me at this point that -- after suffering a severe concussion that affected him for a quarter of a season and will likely continue to bother him into the offseason -- the risk of exposing Mauer to more routine jarring blows to the head in six months is acceptable.

 

Let the man do what he wants to do. In this case, he wants to catch.

What Mauer wants is immaterial. The Twins pay him $23M/yr and they need to protect their asset.

[Guest USAFChief]

What Mauer wants is immaterial.

 

Concur.

[jokin]

Only if you know what you're doing...

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5722[/ATTACH]

 

Maybe I'm wrong, but I've never thought of 3rd base as a position that's particularly easy on the body. It doesn't have a life span as short as, say, center field, but you can think of laundry list of 3rd basemen who had back problems and other ailments regularly in their careers as everyday 3rd basemen (Eric Chavez - back, Longoria - foot issues, Zimmerman - every body part). Now, that could be due to the fact that bigger guys play that position, and tend to break down. But at 6'5", Joe is also a "bigger guy". I really don't feel like 3rd base is either a long term solution, nor that it would keep him appreciably healthier over catcher (minus the foul tip aspect).

 

Love the photo.

 

3rd base is something a guy as athletic as a former elite QB like Mauer is, could play at, and end up excelling, like Joe Torre did. Plus, you'd actually have a fighting chance to get a positive return on your $23M/yr investment on Mauer over putting him at the less premium position, 1st, which IMO, should be reserved for cheaper-cost, less-athletic, power bats.

 

And not squatting for 3 hours is far healthier for a 6'5" guy, so I disagree on your opinion that C=3rd in terms of wear and tear on the body.

[Steve Penz]

I think the Twins should keep Mauer behind the plate for the entirety of his career. He doesn't want to move and he shouldn't. He hardly has any value if you move him somewhere else. You all think this concussion thing is a big deal, but guess what? It's just as likely at any other position. Corey Koskie and Justin Morneau both got them. In your 30s, anything can ruin your career and I just don't see a significant risk reduction that offsets team value. I like Pinto a lot and I think he'll be a good player, but I wouldn't move Mauer just because of team depth. This is a HOF career guy and keeping him at catcher gives him more potential to seal the deal. Plus, I don't like the Twins paying 23 million for a slightly above average first baseman instead of an elite catcher.

 

Come on. Below you go on to say he is a HOF career guy. I just don't understand your logic. It still amazes me how people cannot see how exceptional he is as a hitter....at any position.