Article: Catching No Longer an Option For Mauer

[Badsmerf]

Why is it that any Twins player which receives a concussion doesn't just receive any, but it is a catastrophic concussion that lingers? Are these more severe than football concussions where guys come back in a week? I just don't get it. Maybe he is feeling "symptoms" still, its obviously not worth pushing it in this season but that shouldn't alter the entire future plans for him.

 

I don't really know how bad it is, none of us do. Concussions changed Morneau's and Koskie's career so it isn't something you can just play through without any effect. I hope this is not something we have to continue to talk about. Moving Mauer from catcher permanently is not in the best interest of the Twins.

[Squirrel]

Why is it that any Twins player which receives a concussion doesn't just receive any, but it is a catastrophic concussion that lingers? Are these more severe than football concussions where guys come back in a week? I just don't get it. Maybe he is feeling "symptoms" still, its obviously not worth pushing it in this season but that shouldn't alter the entire future plans for him.

 

I don't really know how bad it is, none of us do. Concussions changed Morneau's and Koskie's career so it isn't something you can just play through without any effect. I hope this is not something we have to continue to talk about. Moving Mauer from catcher permanently is not in the best interest of the Twins.

 

The NFL hasn't taken concussions seriously until recently; I think the lawsuit of former players vs the NFL was just settled. Also, see: Dave Duerson. I'm glad that baseball is taking this more seriously. That said, I think we need to really see what we have, who is here, who is gone, who we get, before Mauer is moved. I don't think any decision made rashly is a good one. Still, I think we see Mauer behind the plate next year, even if half time or less.

[Siehbiscuit]

The Twins just drafted 3 catchers in the first 7 rounds of the draft as well! On the outside, it does appear that the FO sees Mauer's time behind the plate is winding down as well.

 

To me this issue is rather simple. Either he is to catch and a lot of this is a smokescreen to shut him down at the tale end of a lost season or he is genuinely having major issues. If it is the former, keep him as the primary catcher, send down Pinto to be the AAA catcher and have Doumit continue as the backup. Mauer will also play 1B and DH same as he did in 2012. If it is the latter and he really is having major symptoms, then it needs to be over for Mauer at catcher. His bat is what has made him so valuable. His defense is replaceable (not necessarily within the organization), but his bat regardless of position is top 10. If this is a legitimate concussion situation and not a "shut him down and give Pinto AB's" situaton then he needs to be done as a catcher and not even the emergency guy. One more foul tip could end his career.

[Steve Penz]

I have now moved to the camp of putting him at 1B. This article turned me. People say his value goes down at first and I get it but take a look. His career hitting numbers vs the 1B numbers from the whole league this year would have him 1st in Avg, 2nd in OB% and 6th in OPS. Not to mention that I feel he could step in and contend strongly for a gold glove right away. I'll take it. The bat is way too important and although less exceptional, his numbers would still make him one of the best hitting first basemen (and players) in the league. And, like others have pointed out, he could be the emergency catcher. Sorry, Joe. This move should happen.

[DJL44]

This article doesn't change my mind that Mauer should stay at catcher for a number of reasons. I'll list them in descending order of importance.

 

1) He's had one concussion in 10 years behind the plate. At that rate he's unlikely to have another one. He's at risk for a concussion batting and running the bases and he isn't going to stop doing either one of them. There are things they can do to mitigate his concussion risk while catching.

2) He's their best defensive option at catcher. Until that is no longer the case I can't support moving him from behind the plate. The team has a better chance of winning ballgames with him catching.

3) He doesn't want to move and it gives Mauer his best chance at making individual accomplishments the longer they leave him there.

4) If they move him from behind the plate now he might not make the 2014 ASG at Target Field.

 

I fully support using Mauer more at 1B and DH but his primary position should be catcher as long as it helps the team win.

[roger]

I agree that Mauer should be moved to first base, full time. I understand his previous statements about being a catcher and that is where he will play. With this concussion lingering, much like Morneau, at some point he is going to have to understand that his future both on and off the field is at risk if he goes behind the plate...even for part of one game as an emergency option.

 

Mauer is now married with a wife and Twin daughters. At some point this winter he is going to have to come to the understanding that his health and future as a husband and father dictate that he no longer risks his future health by catching.

 

The Twins are fine without Mauer behind the plate, even in an emergency situation. Doumit and Pinto can share catching and DH with Herrmann a good bench option who catches a game every now and them. If they trade Doumit at some point, Pinto is the starter and they need to find a backup or emergency catcher.

[nicksaviking]

Are we sure the "concussion" wasn't just an excuse to get out of playing on a terrible team and instead play video games with his best bud?

 

I took liberties with the Patriot Act and recently recorded a telephone conversation between Mauer and Morneau soon after the Canadian was traded to Pittsburgh. It went like this:

 

Canuck: I got traded to them Pittsburgh Pirates.

 

Mauer: Say what?! I thought I had it written into my contract that we get to play together until we retire or die from drinking a combination of cola and pop rocks.

 

Canuck: Bill Smith pulled the old razzle dazzle and put some of that fine print on your contract, it didn't count I guess. You also gotta clean the Target Field bathrooms if your OBP dropps below .360.

 

Mauer: Well that's it, I'm going to Pittsburgh to play with you.

 

Canuck: You can't play there, don't ya know Minnesotan's can only play for the Twins?

 

Mauer: Well then I'll quit. I'm moving with you, I'll start looking for a two-bedroom for us.

 

Canuck: Make it three, we can turn the extra room into planetarium like at our old place. I still have some of those glow in the dark stars to stick on the ceiling. But don't quit, just tell Gardy you been getting headaches. We might be able to make this work if we try the old "Canadian Brain Freeze" trick.

 

Mauer: Isn't that when you Canadians ride a Moose naked through town with an ice bucket on your head?

 

Canuck: No, that's the "Frozen Furry Wedgie" and it's a bucket of maple syrup.

Remember that time I was into those Saskatoon mobsters big time in 2010 and ended up missing the rest of the season? I think the concussion thing can still work.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't care if Mauer is in the ASG, or in the Hall....so those don't matter to me. I care if the Twins win.

 

The best way to do that is to have your best player on the field 160 games a year, not 120, imo. He should move to 1B full time, with some time at DH also.

[halfchest]

Let's put an end to all plans that involve Pinto spending any significant time at DH. He had a great season but realistic expectations have him as a .700-.750 OPS hitter. If scouts thought he was a good enough hitter to DH regularly (.775-.850 OPS) AND catch then he would be a top 50 (probably top 25 prospect).

 

I don't think Herman ever becomes a player worthy of regular starts either. Definitely not as an OF'er. His value is a once/twice a week starting catcher that has versatility to play the OF if needed. he just doesn't hit enough especially anywhere other than catcher.

 

I don't know Pinto seems like something clicked over the last couple years. He's had a .844 OPS in 2012 and .882 OPS in 2013 along with a really nice start in the majors. Will he be a .850 OPS hitter? Probably not. Could he be around .800 though? I think so. I think he wasn't on prospect lists because a year ago he had had one nice season. Well now he built on that with an even more impressive season this year. Nice K/BB ratio and 15 HR pop. Probably should be a top 100 prospect if he doesn't use up his eligibility. I guess in my plan he would be the primary C and DH maybe 30-50 games.

 

I agree with you on Hermann but it is nice that he can at least be a solid emergency option in the outfield, possibly late game defensive replacement type guy.

[ashbury]

1) He's had one concussion in 10 years behind the plate. At that rate he's unlikely to have another one. He's at risk for a concussion batting and running the bases and he isn't going to stop doing either one of them. There are things they can do to mitigate his concussion risk while catching.

 

I'll leave the full context of your first point, but I have to disagree with the second sentence of it. According to Concussion: Risk factors - MayoClinic.com :

 

Factors that may increase your risk of a concussion include:

 

• Participating in a high risk sport...
  
  
• ..
  
  
• Having had a previous concussion
  
  

Mayo's stats apparently mean his "rate" is no longer what it once was.

 

Now, we've seen serious concussions by our CF (Span) and 1B (Morneau), but what we need are other stats to show whether catching has more of the "high risk sport" elements than those positions. My guess is the answer is yes, with foul tips and home plate collisions being part of the job; but diving for balls may be just as big a risk. And in any case the defensive side of the job is only part of the total risk, since for example home plate collisions require two to tango.

[DJL44]

Mauer is now married with a wife and Twin daughters. At some point this winter he is going to have to come to the understanding that his health and future as a husband and father dictate that he no longer risks his future health by catching.

 

By that logic anyone who has a concussion should quit playing baseball because they're putting their family at risk. Baseball is a game that has inherent injury risks. Playing 1B doesn't keep him from getting beaned at the plate or hit by an errant throw during practice.

[stringer bell]

There aren't many sure things. Among the surest things for the Twins is that if he is playing, Joe Mauer will hit. I certainly think that he will hit better and in more games as a first baseman. I also am pretty certain that Mauer will be an asset at first base whether he plays there for 20 or 50 or a 150 games. Will Pinto be the regular catcher immediately and last there for several years? I think so, but it is far from a sure thing. It would be great if he could step in but I think the Twins need to have a contingency plan--one not involving Mauer going back to catcher if Pinto isn't ready or gets hurt.

[stringer bell]

By that logic anyone who has a concussion should quit playing baseball because they're putting their family at risk. Baseball is a game that has inherent injury risks. Playing 1B doesn't keep him from getting beaned at the plate or hit by an errant throw during practice.

True, but how many catchers were disabled this year by things unique to being a catcher (home plate collisions and foul tips)?

[Shane Wahl]

I am comfortable with a Pinto/Herrmann semi-platoon behind the plate. Semi, because Pinto should be the primary catcher. SSS and everything, I know, but I don't really care. I don't expect Pinto's fall to earth to be that dramatic. And Herrmann will get a bit better after his rookie season. His isolated discipline of about 90 means that if he can hit .240, he is a good backup catcher. I don't expect much of a higher average, but a .240/.330/.370 doesn't seem out of the question. And Pinto's OPS could legitimately be 70-100 points higher than that. Some offensive drop by moving Mauer away from catcher is mitigated by having adequate-good catching options, the arrival of Sano at third, and a jump forward by Arcia (and, ahem, a platoon of Parmelee and Plouffe).

[Shane Wahl]

Also, I am pretty damn sure that Mauer will be a better defensive first baseman than Colabello, Parmelee, Plouffe, Sano, etc. etc. etc. et al, et al, et al--perhaps the best in the entire organization?

[DJL44]

I'll leave the full context of your first point, but I have to disagree with the second sentence of it. According to Concussion: Risk factors - MayoClinic.com :

 

Factors that may increase your risk of a concussion include:

 

• Participating in a high risk sport...
  
  
• ..
  
  
• Having had a previous concussion
  
  

Mayo's stats apparently mean his "rate" is no longer what it once was.

 

"May increase risk." Not "Increases risk by a factor of 100." If he gets one concussion every 10+ years the odds are really low he gets another next season. Moving him from C to 1B only decreases those odds slightly because his concussion risk does not come just from playing C. He's not going to stop "participating in a high risk sport". Alexi Casilla and Wilkin Ramirez had concussions playing the field this year and they don't play catcher.

 

Does anyone have actual data on the rate of concussions for catchers versus other positions? It is critical to have data to make a risk-based decision. Humans are notoriously awful at estimating risk.

[Shane Wahl]

By that logic anyone who has a concussion should quit playing baseball because they're putting their family at risk. Baseball is a game that has inherent injury risks. Playing 1B doesn't keep him from getting beaned at the plate or hit by an errant throw during practice.

 

Number of times hit in head by foul tip >>>> number of times hit in head by pitch or by errant throws in practice.

[IdahoPilgrim]

By that logic anyone who has a concussion should quit playing baseball because they're putting their family at risk.

 

If I was a professional ballplayer, and I already had more money than I needed for the rest of my life, I would have to give serious consideration to exactly this. Morneau made a similar comment a couple of years ago, to the effect that it might get to the point where it's not worth continuing to play, and if that happened he would be OK with that.

 

I think it would be very interesting to see the reaction of the fanbase if that actually happened (and note I am not in any way predicting it nor anticipating it - I'm just speculating for the sake of speculation) - how many would respect him for doing right by his family and how many would feel betrayed by his decision?

[kab21]

I don't know Pinto seems like something clicked over the last couple years. He's had a .844 OPS in 2012 and .882 OPS in 2013 along with a really nice start in the majors. Will he be a .850 OPS hitter? Probably not. Could he be around .800 though? I think so. I think he wasn't on prospect lists because a year ago he had had one nice season. Well now he built on that with an even more impressive season this year. Nice K/BB ratio and 15 HR pop. Probably should be a top 100 prospect if he doesn't use up his eligibility. I guess in my plan he would be the primary C and DH maybe 30-50 games.

 

I agree with you on Hermann but it is nice that he can at least be a solid emergency option in the outfield, possibly late game defensive replacement type guy.

 

Sickels did a September writeup on Pinto and tentatively put him as a B- prospect. Those are borderline top 100 guys at best. Imo people are consistently over optimistic when translating MiLB stats to MLB stats.

 

The problem with putting Pinto at DH (same for Doumit) for 30-50 games is that it means that the team doesn't have a real DH that is an actual plus hitter in the lineup. Pinto is in his mid 20's and he shouldn't need rest days other than the standard one per week. His bat also likely won't be that important to the lineup and he should get an actual rest day instead of DH'ing.

[DJL44]

Number of times hit in head by foul tip >>>> number of times hit in head by pitch or by errant throws in practice.

 

How many times does getting hit by a foul tip result in a concussion? How many times does getting hit in the head by an errant throw when you're not wearing a helmet and face mask cause a concussion?

 

We're dealing with really small numbers here which is why we need actual data to make a good decision.

 

Suppose playing catcher doubles his concussion risk versus playing 1B. That means moving him to 1B decreases his risk he gets a concussion in 2014 from very unlikely to very, very unlikely. I don't see "long term health concerns" as a legitimate reason to move him from C to 1B. If that was a real worry the only way to mitigate it is to quit playing baseball.

 

If we're looking at overall injury risk to a C versus 1B I think that is legitimate because you want Mauer on the field instead of on the DL but it has nothing at all to do with concussions.

[jm3319]

Having an elite hitting catcher is worth it. Buster Posey ripped his knee up catching and he still catches almost full time. Yadi would punch somebody if they tried to move him from catcher.

 

This is apples to oranges. Knee injuries aren't a big deal anymore. You have surgery, you miss time rehabbing, and you come back nearly as good as new. (See: Posey, Peterson). Head injuries aren't something you fix with a surgery and rehab, unfortunately. There's no timetable or step-by-step instructions for returning to 100%.

 

I don't think Mauer is 100% done catching, but he probably should be, for his sake and the team's.

[Guest USAFChief]

The risk of getting another concussion from a pitch, an errant throw during practice, or any other reason is there no matter what position he plays.

 

What goes away if he's not catching is the specific risk of foul tips hitting him in the head. Which just happens to be the specific cause of this concussion, and which can be anticipated to happen multiple times again wih near certainty if he stays a catcher.

 

Combined with the other short and long term physical risks of catching make this decision really easy IMO.

[Teflon]

Arguments in the vein of "Mauer provides more value relative to the competition at catcher than he would at another position" only make sense if you're playing fantasy baseball. Since the Twins currently have a batting order featuring crap, crud, and flotsam Mauer's position change does nothing to weaken this team. It only weakens his chances of making future All-Star games.

[Steve Penz]

This could also be an opportunity to maximize value in Willingham. If the Twins go to a more traditional catching situation like they had with Mauer/Redmond they they no longer will have the 1B/DH/Catcher rotation. You get Willingham out of left field and put him at DH were he can hit.

[lightfoot789]

We could always put Adam Brett Walker II at Catcher. I read or heard he was a Catcher his entire life until he went to college. College coaches didn't want to waste his athleticism behind the plate. He could be another big Catcher (ala Joe). When is the last time we could say we had a Catcher who hit 30+ HRs either? A new direction (average for power)? Might have some swing and miss but HRs and RBIs don't grow on trees. I am kidding but..............

[nicksaviking]

Arguments in the vein of "Mauer provides more value relative to the competition at catcher than he would at another position" only make sense if you're playing fantasy baseball. Since the Twins currently have a batting order featuring crap, crud, and flotsam Mauer's position change does nothing to weaken this team. It only weakens his chances of making future All-Star games.

 

I was always of the mind that Mauer moving to 1B would hurt the team offensively but this is a true point. Mauer moving to 1B means more AB for Pinto and less for Parmelee or Colabello. Hard to argue that that is going to hurt the team at this point.

[Brandon]

Next season or 3 Mauer can platoon at First and C with Plouffe or Colabello being the Right Handed 1B and Pinto at C. Mauer can Catch 60-100 games and play 1B 50-90 games depending on health and how the complimentary parts are playing/ hitting. I think Mauer has a few seasons left behind the plate. I do think thats where his value is greatest and as long as he isnt worn out he'll be able to hit.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I have been an opponent of moving Mauer away from catcher, and stick by it, unless he can't do it anymore. 5 weeks does not a lifetime make. I agree with DJL44, that playing baseball puts every player at risk of getting a concussion.

[StormJH1]

The Mauer to 3B thing never made sense, and it was never something given and credence by the Twins or by Mauer...

Yeah, the idea that Mauer should go learn 3rd base in his Age 31 season is something out of fantasy baseball, video games, or whatever...but it isn't set in reality. Most 3rd baseman who have been doing it for a decade or longer are starting to wind down by age 31. Reflexes slow, athleticism diminishes, and many of them wind up out of the league by their mid-30's unless they can really hit or if they have a background as a middle infielder and can play other positions.

 

An aging Joe Mauer could hit well enough to play 3rd, but there's no long term value to throwing him out at a completely unfamiliar position that takes entirely different skills than catcher or even 1st base.

 

Couple all that with the fact that one of the top hitting prospects in baseball already plays that position (how well remains to be seen), and this just makes no sense.

 

I think Mauer spends significant time at 1st base next year (if healthy enough to play, of course). He also DH'es some, perhaps against lefties with Colabello playing 1st for those games.

[StormJH1]

Arguments in the vein of "Mauer provides more value relative to the competition at catcher than he would at another position" only make sense if you're playing fantasy baseball. Since the Twins currently have a batting order featuring crap, crud, and flotsam Mauer's position change does nothing to weaken this team. It only weakens his chances of making future All-Star games.

THANK YOU. Even the SABR guys tend to disagree with this, but position scarcity has little or no value unless all 9 (or perhaps at least 6 or 7) of your positional guys are above-replacement hitters for their positions. No matter how good Mauer is playing catcher - the fact that he happens to play catcher is irrelevant to the overall offensive strength of the team...UNLESS you are overflowing with good options at other positions.

 

If Parmelee and Colabello are the 1st base options, and they both stink next year, then you haven't gained anything at all by "opening up" 1st base for somebody else to play (by having Mauer at catcher). Positional scarcity has some validity, but what people miss is that it has as much or more to do with the quality of the other 8 guys than it does with the quality of the guy overperforming at a "scarce" position.