Article: Dissension on Spending?

[Nick Nelson]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2359-Dissension-on-Spending

[JB_Iowa]

"But there's a large difference between contending and what we've seen unfold here for a third straight year. "

 

Amen.

[nicksaviking]

GM's don't generally win a battle of wills with the owner.

[jm3319]

GM's don't generally win a battle of wills with the owner.

 

I don't see how it's even a battle at this point. The owner is telling the GM to spend the OWNER's money......As a GM (or any person, really) how can it get any better than that?

 

Other team's GM's have to work on limited funds and would kill for a few extra million to play with. Now it seems Terry Ryan is refusing the spend, or spend very little. Blows my mind.

[Squirrel]

I would think that an owner and a GM would be on the same page, or at least close to the same page. Ryan and Jim Pohlad seem to be talking from the opposite sides of the fence. That all makes me wonder what is going on internally. Why the mixed messages? Is this a bad cop/good cop routine? Or is there internal struggle? Can't see Ryan winning that if that is true. Or is this something that will all come to a head in the off season? I guess all one can do is wait and see. While the years have given me nothing to truly hope for, I still hope. Personally, if you want to change the internal culture of the organization, you need to start at the top. While I don't think Ryan will be out of a job, imo, he should be the first to go in making the changes needed to right the ship. The new GM's first job will be dealing with the manager. But, all this is just my wish for something better; it's still a waiting game.

[Wookiee of the Year]

I have to wonder if there's some Good Cop/Bad Cop going on here. Jim Pohlad wants to be seen as the benevolent owner, so he offers a quote suggesting a willingness to spend big. Meanwhile, Terry Ryan's job is to temper expectations, so he says that Free Agency isn't a silver bullet for the Twins. (Gardy, of course, just wants to keep his job, so tries to artfully deflect blame for a 90-loss season.)

 

Makes me think the truth lies in between--Pohlad and Ryan both know they're going to need to do a bit of spending this off-season, but it won't turn the team into play-off contenders in 2014. And if things go awry and there aren't any solid pitchers to be had for reasonable money (or fans are simply disappointed by the overall Free Agent haul), then at least Pohlad's been quoted announcing his financial commitment to the team and TR gets to look like the penny-pinching miser keeping the Twins from respectability.

[DuluthFan]

It would be a very unwise negotiation strategy for any GM to say "We have an open checkbook. How much do you want?" The players would have the upper hand in the negotiations. It is the GM's job to get the best deal and field a team. He wouldn't be doing his job if he is just throwing money around. It's ok for the owner indicate that the team is looking to spend money. He will not be doing the negotiating. His statements are pointed more towards the agents to consider pointing their clients towards the Twins. If the Twins are going to go against their usual free agency dealings, the free agents need to know that considering the Twins as an option will be worth at least a call or two.

[Winston Smith]

" While the Twins have limped to three straight 90-plus loss seasons,...." more like:

http://bolstablog.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/man-crawling-in-desert-dying-of-thirst.png?w=300&h=199

[SpitefulRabbit617]

Pfft, I'll believe Terry Ryan any day over a Pohlad. Terry Ryan isn't the one who sold us on funding a new stadium so we could increase revenue. All big name pitchers on 1 year deals. Its not like we can do any worse.

[nicksaviking]

It would be a very unwise negotiation strategy for any GM to say "We have an open checkbook. How much do you want?" The players would have the upper hand in the negotiations. It is the GM's job to get the best deal and field a team. He wouldn't be doing his job if he is just throwing money around. It's ok for the owner indicate that the team is looking to spend money. He will not be doing the negotiating. His statements are pointed more towards the agents to consider pointing their clients towards the Twins. If the Twins are going to go against their usual free agency dealings, the free agents need to know that considering the Twins as an option will be worth at least a call or two.

 

I actually would disagree. Last year Ryan complained that free agents didn't want to come to Minnesota. Many people around here didn't buy it, believing that Ryan simply didn't put the best offers out there. If Ryan was being honest last year (or partially honest) then the Twins need to be out front this year with a big sign saying "Open For Business."

 

It's going to take an image change to attract free agents. If free agents don't want to come here due to the losing, the Twins need to be advertising that the culture has changed and they are willing to do what it takes to win. Cleveland did it last year and they didn't have trouble courting free agents.

[Oxtung]

I think there are 2 reasons to believe the Pohlad's might be willing to spend. First, Jim, Robert and William might want to step out of the "cheap" shadow that Carl created with his spending habits. If that is true than what better time to show you're willing to spend than on a 90 loss team with huge holes?

 

Second, none of the remaining Pohlads have won a World Series. There might be a desire to bring home a championship even if it means spending to do so. Remember Carl won two early on in his tenure of ownership. Do the kids want to show they can follow in dad's footsteps?

[cmb0252]

Hicks, Arcia, Gibson, and Pinto all were able to get their feet wet in the majors this year and all should play bigger roles next year. It isn't outside of possibility that Sano, May, Meyer, Rosario, and Buxton could do the same next year. Prospects don't just bring talent to the mlb club but a huge amount of financial flexibility. The pohlads could easily sign several FAs to 3-4 year deals that will help now but won't interfere with signing the prospects which turn out to be good mlb players long term.

[Kwak]

I believe there isn't any disagreement. Pohlad states a willingness to spend--as long as its according to conditions that wouldn't be agreeable. The real plan (by management) is slash payroll, feed the public the same old "ya never know" BS, and hope that somehow they can draft, develop, and "luck-out in the dumpster" before the public completely tires of their song-and-dance. It would be a real pity to build a winner years after the public has lost interest and find that TF will have crowds like Tampa Bay, Oakland, and Cleveland have today.

[Thrylos]

Over time for Ryan to go.

[twinsnorth49]

Pfft, I'll believe Terry Ryan any day over a Pohlad. Terry Ryan isn't the one who sold us on funding a new stadium so we could increase revenue. All big name pitchers on 1 year deals. Its not like we can do any worse.

 

No TR is the one who told us he was going to get a serious starter for the rotation last winter and sold us Kevin Correia and Mike Pelfrey,

 

Pelfrey was a 1 yr deal (thank god), I hope to hell we can't do any worse than that.

[nicksaviking]

I believe there isn't any disagreement. Pohlad states a willingness to spend--as long as its according to conditions that wouldn't be agreeable. The real plan (by management) is slash payroll, feed the public the same old "ya never know" BS, and hope that somehow they can draft, develop, and "luck-out in the dumpster" before the public completely tires of their song-and-dance. It would be a real pity to build a winner years after the public has lost interest and find that TF will have crowds like Tampa Bay, Oakland, and Cleveland have today.

 

The fans will always come back and the Pohlads know it. The end years at the Metrodome were packed despite the emptiness which allowed my unimpeded ability to snag seven batting practice balls one game I went to in the late 1990's. I went to a game once where the promotion was to give away unused tickets to Eric Milton's no-hitter because they actually had tens of thousands left that they did not issue.

[Rosterman]

The money is there to spend -- wisely, of course. Terry Ryan, use you skills to target arbitration eligible folks who may be jettisoned by their own teams, but the Twins can afford. Take a chance on some of those guys entering the overpayed years if teams cut them loose.

 

The joys of free agent signings is that you get players just for money, you seldom, with the new rules, lose anyone. You also have to be willing to forget your past (being the good guy giving people long contracts and NOT trading them) and do that if the opportunity arises.

 

You spend money. You lose on many, you win on some. Some you take the opportunity to jettison (like Willingham...let him walk to Baltimore and take that $7 million a reinvest in another comparable player).

 

You hear Jim Pohlad talk about spending on free agents, and he totally misses step one of the new Target Field -- "We will be able to keep our own free agents in the future" was said, I believe.

 

Part of the Twins problems right now is that they did let Nathan, Kuble, Cuddyer, Hunter and others walk. They weren't able to turn around Young, Pavano, Capps, Pelfry for worthwhile players. They were forced into a corner trading Santana and Liriano because they didn't want to cough up bucks to keep them...thinking hometown players would rather stay and be underpaid than leave and get paid more than you feel is responsible.

 

The Twins set a budget for draftee, international signing, and major league payroll. They can spend within that window, and if attendance and such rises (because you win) can spend more, but more often than not it is based on last year's revenue rather than next year's predictions. But us fans get mad when the money isn't spent and start to make up places where it does flow (owner's pockets).

 

Yes, they are getting up to a $25 million windfall this year from MLB. They have extra monies to spend, even more if they didn't have Correia, Willingahm and Doumit -- all three replaceabe by similar and possibly more productive others.

 

Beyond those three there are no trading chips that won't mortgage the Twins future. Those chips have to show if they can play in the majors and suddenly make a Hicks or Dozier or Rosaio part of a package for an arbitration-eligible overpayed potential superstar or not. Then you start dealing your minor league depth, because soon that catches up on you when you can't keep guys on the 40-man or add them because you are just too rich in potential.

 

I know I'm just rambling and this disappointing season comes to an end. I think the Twins need a total overall -- bring in a new general manager and manager team, revamp the whole front office, especially if ownership and team management aren't on the same page. Stop being nice. It is a business and you need to put butts, like my own, into the seats.

[old nurse]

The quote says near and long term. In solving the club's needs that fit both criteria it would be unlikely that free agency would be a fix. Ashburyjohn had posted the interview. Ryan never said he wasn't going to sign free agents. Their top prospects they would hope to be career Twins. Long term fix for a position when they work out. He later in ashburyjohn's post said that there would be people that they would pursue. Hopefully they have learned the market. The free agent is a short term fix. Look at what is available as a free agent. Someone generally over 30. Not a long term fix in the drug testing era. Not a long term fix. Ryan wants to fix things long term. There are people he will go after. It would be looked at as a short term fix. Willingham was a short term fix until one of the young outfielders were ready. Hopefully he has learned there is little value or gain in signing 5th starters as free agents.

[Oldgoat_MN]

Once upon a time I went shopping with my daughter. We were buying a shirt for my brother. I told her that I was looking for a shirt for $20. They were charging $40 for that type of shirt.

My daughter said, "Dad, that's what those shirts cost now".

 

Is that where Terry Ryan is now? He just is really not clear what it costs to get really quality players?

 

I wonder about that.

[ThePuck]

Once upon a time I went shopping with my daughter. We were buying a shirt for my brother. I told her that I was looking for a shirt for $20. They were charging $40 for that type of shirt.

My daughter said, "Dad, that's what those shirts cost now".

 

So, you couldn't even give your money away at that store? :-)

 

I bet you could go down to the dollar store and buy a few shirts and pocket the rest of the money...

[JB_Iowa]

I don't really see Pohlad's and Ryan's comments as being diametrically opposed -- I think Ryan's position would always be that they are not going to give money away just to give it away and that there simply weren't any players out there worth the money last off-season.

 

But I would think that if Terry Ryan spent 15%-20% below his authority for 2013 and then turns around and does the same thing (or something more drastic) next season without improved results, ANY owner would have to wonder whether the game has passed him by. I'm of the same age as Ryan and sometimes I look at prices in general and think, "who would pay that for that" but ultimately you have to pay the market rate (or, in the case of the Twins, more than market rate especially for short-term deals which are, after all, what Pohlad mentioned).

[Dainir]

I think people are missing the point of what Terry Ryan is saying, or at least I hope I am catching what he is saying.

 

If you look at the free agent market for this upcoming off season, we have:

Player ERA

Barry Zito 5.91

Tim Lincecum 4.44

Scott Feldman 3.51

Phil Hughes 5.07

Joba Chamberlain 4.97

Ervin Santana 3.16

 

Now let me throw some Twins numbers at you:

 

Sam Deduno 3.83

Drew Albers 3.98

Kevin Correia 4.29

Mike Pelfrey 5.34

Kyle Gibson 6.53

 

 

I would like to call attention to the fact, that of the 6 players listed at the top end of the free agency market, only two of them had better years than our top 3 pitchers. Ervin Santana and Scott Feldman. I would love to get either of those, but then again by this years numbers they are the best players to get in free agency, so I would think so would any other team looking for a pitcher.

 

For the rest of the guys in that list, they would fill a 4th or fifth slot as a starter. Keep in mind Kyle Gibson will be getting one of those spots at some point next year, and you can bet numbers will dictate who stays at with the major league club and who goes down to Rochester.

 

So in the free agent market who do you get after Ervin and Scott (both of whom performed well above their career average).

 

Zito and Lincecum are both on extended bad stretches, Lincecum's 2012 campaign was even worse than this years. Zito's Career ERA is at 4.03, but he hasn't seen a sub 4.0 ERA in 6 years.

 

That leaves Hughes and Chamberlain. Hughes' career ERA is 4.52 which won't crack the Twins top 3. Joba hasn't started a game since 2009 and his work since then has shown him to have eras of 4.4, 2.83, 4.35, 4.97 out of the bullpen. 3 of those 4 years had Joba with a worse ERA than anyone in our bullpen who has gotten serious amounts of work this year.

 

(The closest two are Duensing and Roenicke with 4.12 and 4.23 ERAs respectively.)

 

 

So, please tell me who of the rest would be a clear great improvement to the team?

 

Looking at free-agency, I say wow, I can't even really significantly improve our team by signing two of the best 6 players on the market unless we get the #1 and #2. Now imagine how much that would cost. Now think of yourself as Terry Ryan, could you really pull the trigger on that, knowing these are all guys that have been around the league a minimum of 7 years and still aren't performing all that well.

 

 

We have the international market or trades open for real significant improvement. We CAN'T get an ace in the free agent market, we can't even come close. We can only sign guys who would give other players in our system a run for their money at the 5th starter position.

 

So yeah, I get Terry Ryan saying, we can't really do it through free agency, at least not if you want a real change.

[Nick Nelson]

How on Earth did you come up with that list as the best six pitchers in free agency?

[Dainir]

How on Earth did you come up with that list as the best six pitchers in free agency?

 

 

I would love to be wrong and be stupid, for bringing up what I did. So please make my day and let me know otherwise.

 

But what I based that off of was from a startribune article:

Chart: Free-agent talent available this winter | Star Tribune

 

 

[Nick Nelson]

I think that's just a list of guys they elected to highlight. Zito is probably not among the top 30 free agent SPs.

[snepp]

Cue the sample size and smoke-n-mirrors alerts on Albers. Proclaiming him as "better" than anything that's going to be available in free agency is a massive stretch.

[Kwak]

"...and the answer is?" Apparently give up and pray. Change requires a new way--and that won't come from the same bunch that has been there for decades. I agree 1000% that the Twins want Mauer to leave--and no they won't open-up the checkbook if that happens--they will just become Houston North.

[strumdatjag]

These guys have also been listed as potential free agents in recent articles.

Jason Vargas, Scott Kazmir, Tim Hudson, and Josh Johnson. My preference would be to sign a younger pitcher like Phil Hughes and hope he benefits from a change in scenery. Leaving Yankee Stadium to Target Field is a big change - there's always hope.

[beckmt]

Vargas is more of the same, Kazmir is too risky and Hudson too old. Would love to have Johnson. Do not see a big improvement with Hughes. Ryan is correct as far as signing international players and trades are the best way, only the Twins have nothing to trade except the future to bring a very good pitcher here. But the Twins still have to spend the money. Maybe the MLB players union has to put a clause in that a team's payroll has to be at least 60-70 million. That will stop some of this issue.

[old nurse]

Perhaps the best free agent they could sign is a backup catcher named Joe Girardi.