Judging A Rebuild

[howieramone1406390264]

Doumit serves no purpose, what do people think they can trade him for? Just DFA him now, and move onto the future already.

 

Calm down Ryan will get something for him. Doumit belongs in the bigs and there is no reason to panic. It's not like he's blocking a future All-Star or something.

[Mike Sixel]

he can't catch, he can't field, and he's a bad hitter.....he serves no purpose on this roster, and should not have been signed to a multi year deal. Not sure why anyone would trade anything for him at all.

[Mike Sixel]

Weren't people saying that about Drew Butera?

 

Part of selling high with Doumit involves waiting. Next year at this time, with only ~1m owed him, he will be a hotter commodity.

 

Dumping an established ML hitter doesn't seem like a great way to manage assets.

 

 

so you'd rather have him on the roster next year than someone that might be part of the future? If they can send him to AAA like Drew, I'm all for that.....

[Alex]

Weren't people saying that about Drew Butera?

 

Part of selling high with Doumit involves waiting. Next year at this time, with only ~1m owed him, he will be a hotter commodity.

 

Dumping an established ML hitter doesn't seem like a great way to manage assets.

 

Selling high would have meant trading him last year. That's the problem, that the Twins in recent history haven't done a good job of selling players at their peak value with the team.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Weren't people saying that about Drew Butera?

 

Part of selling high with Doumit involves waiting. Next year at this time, with only ~1m owed him, he will be a hotter commodity.

 

Dumping an established ML hitter doesn't seem like a great way to manage assets.

 

Yes. This. Especially when said hitter is in the midst of the worst season of his career.

 

It's possible that Doumit doesn't recover and at that point, you cut him loose. It's also possible that he has an OPS+ of 120 going into July of 2014 and you have a nice prospect coming your way because teams need a flexible bench bat.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Selling high would have meant trading him last year.

 

Except that the Twins need a second catcher to rest Mauer.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week. The problem is that this team also thinks he's a right fielder, every day something-or-other, and maybe mascot.

 

Ryan Doumit is basically the Bizarro World Nick Punto. Awful defense but a capable bat and a great guy to use off the bench a couple of times a week. The problem is when some manager (we won't name any names) thinks that he needs to play every day, every game.

[Mike Sixel]

Compare Doumit to other DHs, and let me know if you really think he's "great" there....he's not even average.

 

Pinto is the 2nd cather next year, he might be good, we know Doumit isn't.

[Alex]

Except that the Twins need a second catcher to rest Mauer.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week. The problem is that this team also thinks he's a right fielder, every day something-or-other, and maybe mascot.

 

 

 

Not arguing that point, and I agree on the Twins use of him, but was debating the selling high point. Doumit had probably his second best season in 2012 and turns 33 next season? Of course, it wouldn't have been terrible if they got something for him,ast year and had Butera catching Mauer's off days the last half ofthe season.

[amjgt]

Not arguing that point, and I agree on the Twins use of him, but was debating the selling high point. Doumit had probably his second best season in 2012 and turns 33 next season? Of course, it wouldn't have been terrible if they got something for him,ast year and had Butera catching Mauer's off days the last half ofthe season.

Then we wouldn't have Sulbaran

[Brock Beauchamp]

Not arguing that point, and I agree on the Twins use of him, but was debating the selling high point. Doumit had probably his second best season in 2012 and turns 33 next season? Of course, it wouldn't have been terrible if they got something for him,ast year and had Butera catching Mauer's off days the last half ofthe season.

 

It's bad form to sign a guy to an extension and then trade him. That makes the franchise look pretty bad to any incoming free agents or players currently in contract limbo.

 

I know it's hard to quantify these kinds of things but MLB is not a video game simulation. Real decisions and real human beings are in play here and not screwing over your employees or creating a bad clubhouse environment has to be a factor in how you treat your players.

 

Look at how Johan reacted to the Castillo trade. It was pretty apparent that he was on his way out the door after that point and that any "loyalty" he had to the franchise was greatly diminished.

[TheLeviathan]

Not arguing that point, and I agree on the Twins use of him, but was debating the selling high point. Doumit had probably his second best season in 2012 and turns 33 next season? Of course, it wouldn't have been terrible if they got something for him,ast year and had Butera catching Mauer's off days the last half ofthe season.

 

Right, it's not just Gardy over playing him, we also extended him (reasonably to be fair) when he should have been dealt.

 

He is blocking a player and that's what happens when you give the manager a choice by putting him on the roster. As with other vets. The team shouldn't be investing more than a year into these kinds of vets at this time. They are recyclable.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Compare Doumit to other DHs, and let me know if you really think he's "great" there....he's not even average.

 

Pinto is the 2nd cather next year, he might be good, we know Doumit isn't.

 

I didn't say Doumit was great at anything. I said he's a great guy to have off the bench and spot-starting.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Except that the Twins need a second catcher to rest Mauer.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week. The problem is that this team also thinks he's a right fielder, every day something-or-other, and maybe mascot.

 

Ryan Doumit is basically the Bizarro World Nick Punto. Awful defense but a capable bat and a great guy to use off the bench a couple of times a week. The problem is when some manager (we won't name any names) thinks that he needs to play every day, every game.

 

Pretty much this. Doumit shouldn't have been taking at bats from Parmelee or Colabello. Period. But he was, and quite a bit. I don't think he should be traded right now, as the return would be garbage, but I do think based on his career that he could have value next year if he bounces back. The problem is that next year, the guy he's blocking in Pinto, who looks like could slide quite nicely into the Doumit role as well as be a potential asset at DH on occasion.

[Brock Beauchamp]

He is blocking a player and that's what happens when you give the manager a choice by putting him on the roster. As with other vets. The team shouldn't be investing more than a year into these kinds of vets at this time. They are recyclable.

 

Then honestly, the front office needs to get a new manager. This whole "he's on the roster so he gets to play every day because the manager wants to WIN" argument is crap.

 

If the front office can't pick up a guy and have him used logically and in a way that benefits the team as a whole because the manager disagrees, get a new manager. There is no excuse for the front office and coaching to be at odds with who takes the field on a daily basis.

[Mike Sixel]

I didn't say Doumit was great at anything. I said he's a great guy to have off the bench and spot-starting.

 

 

4-6 starts a week is spot starting? that's what a guy that backs up Mauer and DH's 3-4 times a week gets......He should not DH 1 time a week, Fangraphs predicted he'd be the worst DH this year for a reason.....

[drjim]

I just don't buy Doumit or Willingham are blocking anyone right now. I agree with the thought of keeping them, hoping they rebound a little, and flipping them next deadline.

 

Replacing them with AAAA guys will lead to more losses and more money in the owner's pocket. I don't get the desire for Houston's model. That franchise will be buried for years. There is something about bringing up the young guys 2-3 at a time to let them settle in before the next group comes up. There is a need for veterans to fill the roster spots.

 

People are criticizing the Twins about not rebuilding properly, but Arcia, Gibson, Hicks, Tonkin all debuted this year and all have a very good chance to be very important pieces to the next winning team. In addition, important information was found out about other borderline players.

 

Just because veterans filled the spots instead of AAAA guys the progress in the rebuild shouldn't be ignored. There are another 4-7 guys that will break in next year as well.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Pretty much this. Doumit shouldn't have been taking at bats from Parmelee or Colabello. Period. But he was, and quite a bit. I don't think he should be traded right now, as the return would be garbage, but I do think based on his career that he could have value next year if he bounces back. The problem is that next year, the guy he's blocking in Pinto, who looks like could slide quite nicely into the Doumit role as well as be a potential asset at DH on occasion.

 

This could be a problem. If Pinto can hit, he's a version of Ryan Doumit.

 

But that wasn't a problem until about five minutes ago. Going into the season, Doumit was a valuable piece for the Twins.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4-6 starts a week is spot starting? that's what a guy that backs up Mauer and DH's 3-4 times a week gets......He should not DH 1 time a week, Fangraphs predicted he'd be the worst DH this year for a reason.....

 

I'm really not trying to be snotty but are you actually reading my posts? Where on earth do you get the idea that I want to see Ryan Doumit start 4-6 games a week? I've spent the past half dozen posts saying the exact opposite of that.

[Mike Sixel]

I'm really not trying to be snotty but are you actually reading my posts? Where on earth do you get the idea that I want to see Ryan Doumit start 4-6 games a week? I've spent the past half dozen posts saying the exact opposite of that.

 

 

right here: "Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week."...so, one time as the backup catcher, plus 3-4 times a week at DH.....that's 4-5 (or 6 when mauer is hurt or 1B) starts a week. That's what you said a few posts up. Unless you meant combined 3-4 times a week, but that's still 4 starts a week....

[Brock Beauchamp]

right here: "Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week."...so, one time as the backup catcher, plus 3-4 times a week at DH.....that's 4-5 (or 6 when mauer is hurt or 1B) starts a week. That's what you said a few posts up. Unless you meant combined 3-4 times a week, but that's still 4 starts a week....

 

3-4 times a week. Or 2-3 times a week. My point is that if he's catching 1-2 times a week and DHing 1-2 times a week, he's a valuable guy to have around because then you have a backup catcher, a part-time DH to keep him fresh, and a guy who can hit coming off the bench 2-3 other times a week.

 

DHing 3-4 times a week and also filling the role of backup catcher means Doumit is a full-time player. I think I made it pretty clear that I do not agree with him in that role.

[markos]

I'm really not trying to be snotty but are you actually reading my posts? Where on earth do you get the idea that I want to see Ryan Doumit start 4-6 games a week? I've spent the past half dozen posts saying the exact opposite of that.

 

You said this:

 

"Except that the Twins need a second catcher to rest Mauer.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week."

 

When I first read this, I also thought you were arguing that

a) Doumit should be backup catcher (1-2 starts per week)

AND

Doumit should DH 3-4 times a week (3-4 starts per week)

-----------------

totals 4-6 starts per week

 

Now it is clear that you meant that Combined DH and backup catching should be 3-4 games a week.

[IdahoPilgrim]

If nothing else, this thread has revealed who has replaced Butera as the "official whipping boy" of TwinsDaily: Ryan Doumit! Come on down!

[Brock Beauchamp]

You said this:

 

"Except that the Twins need a second catcher to rest Mauer.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week."

 

When I first read this, I also thought you were arguing that

a) Doumit should be backup catcher (1-2 starts per week)

AND

Doumit should DH 3-4 times a week (3-4 starts per week)

-----------------

totals 4-6 starts per week

 

Now it is clear that you meant that Combined DH and backup catching should be 3-4 games a week.

 

Fair enough. Bad wording on my part.

[old nurse]

Fair enough. Bad wording on my part.

 

Listen, Doumit is not the problem. He's a great guy to have at C and DH 3-4 times a week."

It really shouldn't be a problem, that is pretty clear

[TheLeviathan]

Then honestly, the front office needs to get a new manager.

 

You say all this as if Gardy and Ryan haven't been doing this for over a decade. Ryan knew exactly what would happen.

[Brock Beauchamp]

You say all this as if Gardy and Ryan haven't been doing this for over a decade. Ryan knew exactly what would happen.

 

And it still drives me insane.

[Alex]

It's bad form to sign a guy to an extension and then trade him. That makes the franchise look pretty bad to any incoming free agents or players currently in contract limbo.

 

I know it's hard to quantify these kinds of things but MLB is not a video game simulation. Real decisions and real human beings are in play here and not screwing over your employees or creating a bad clubhouse environment has to be a factor in how you treat your players.

 

 

Again, I'm not arguing that. But you've pointed what is arguably another mistake in what should have been part of the rebuilding process. They signed a 32-year old player to a two year deal in late June during a losing season. A great take here: Ryan Doumit extension shows Twins still living in the past | HardballTalk

 

Here's a quote from it that sums it up pretty well:

"Ignoring for a moment the fact that the Twins seem to be working to keep together their probable 95-loss team, smart clubs don’t give out multiyear deals unless there’s real upside to them."

[Alex]

I just don't buy Doumit or Willingham are blocking anyone right now. I agree with the thought of keeping them, hoping they rebound a little, and flipping them next deadline.

 

Replacing them with AAAA guys will lead to more losses and more money in the owner's pocket. I don't get the desire for Houston's model. That franchise will be buried for years. There is something about bringing up the young guys 2-3 at a time to let them settle in before the next group comes up. There is a need for veterans to fill the roster spots.

 

People are criticizing the Twins about not rebuilding properly, but Arcia, Gibson, Hicks, Tonkin all debuted this year and all have a very good chance to be very important pieces to the next winning team. In addition, important information was found out about other borderline players.

 

Just because veterans filled the spots instead of AAAA guys the progress in the rebuild shouldn't be ignored. There are another 4-7 guys that will break in next year as well.

 

The problem is, these Twins veterans that are being talked about are not playing much above an AAAA level themselves and they are regularly starting.

 

Doumit is the biggest example of this because he is hitting the worst and has no asset to provide besides his bat (though he can sit behind the plate), but it includes Willingham and to some extent Morneau this year (but certainly includes any talk of re-signing him).

 

It's baffling to me to argue that they should be playing over comparable players that are younger and could have a longer future with the team is the issue. What sense does this make? If they had any trade value this season, wouldn't we be arguing they should have been moved? Instead, since no one else wants them, the position is that they should play for the Twins regularly?

 

Now, I'm not arguing we cut bait on all of them, but a team that is rebuilding should not have all three of these guys on their roster. Willingham will need to be a more permanent DH next season. This really squeezes Doumit because Hermann is far more versatile, is certainly a better backup catcher, and is hitting almost as well as Doumit. This leaves Doumit in the outfield, which is not really a position he's suited for, not to mention, Parmelee got sent back to AAA for hitting about exactly what Doumit is hitting now.

[Alex]

And all this goes back to the main question:

 

How do you a grade a rebuild?

 

The Twins have not done a good job turning over veterans for prospects at the right times, and those veterans haven't really helped them field an even somewhat competitive team during the rebuild.

 

They haven't done a good job of signing free agents that will help them get out of the rebuild more quickly or even really bridge the gap to a future team.

 

Besides Dozier possibly, they haven't properly identified/developed/given a chance to younger players that can take over a position and make use of valuable major league time.

 

The most successful aspect of the rebuild is in acquiring talent by trading already cost controlled and relatively young players in Revere and Span.

 

They've done a good job of making smart decisions in the draft.

 

For me, measuring how well a rebuild goes is how quickly it looks like the Twins are going to get out of it. At this point, their decision making with the major league team has been painfully slow and awful, but they've done a decent job strengthening the minor league system.

 

This makes the rebuild a passive one that will be a significant wait.

[drjim]

I don't think anyone is being blocked but I agree the team should not have all three next year and would be surprised if they do. I would also be surprised if more than one finish 2014 on the roster.

 

The wave is coming and they will be gone soon enough.