Article: Liriano's Success Is Tough To Stomach

[Mike Sixel]

Then don't comment on a thread where that is the topic. Then don't comment on anything, I guess. This whole board is about commenting on stuff we don't have enough information to be more than 60% sure of our thoughts (or 10%, take your pick).

 

I never get those comments, that state that the entire purpose of the site is silly......don't come into these threads if you don't want to comment on them, or read others' comments.

[bird]

Then don't comment on a thread where that is the topic. Then don't comment on anything, I guess. This whole board is about commenting on stuff we don't have enough information to be more than 60% sure of our thoughts (or 10%, take your pick).

 

 

 

I never get those comments, that state that the entire purpose of the site is silly......don't come into these threads if you don't want to comment on them, or read others' comments.

 

What's silly is this notion, mike. Lots of comments here are completely credible and valid, including many of your own. For example, you commented that the Twins have a long way to go before pitching talent rises to the upper levels. Valid, credible, and supportable.

[SpitefulRabbit617]

Blame it on the National League. **BLAME IT ON THE BOSSA NOVA**

[Mike Sixel]

then if it frustrates you so much, don't go into threads where the entire purpose is to discuss things we don't know anything about. You will be happier, it's what I do.

[Nick Nelson]

This is misleading. When he was originally signed, it was a 2-year/$12.75M deal. (I thought I heard $14M at the time, but I'm probably misremembering.) Then he broke his right arm in a fall around the house, and the Pirates voided and renegotiated the deal.

 

This is true, but even the original deal was a mere 2-3 million more than the Twins paid lousy Kevin Correia, and it's well documented that they had plenty of additional financial flexibility during the offseason, so I stand by my statement that they could have easily outbid the Pirates by a healthy amount if they wanted to. My sense is that they didn't have much interest in bringing him back at all, regardless of sound bytes.

 

I believe the Twins did try to sign him in the offseason and Frankie wanted to go elsewhere. Do not blame TR for this one.

 

That may be the case. But how many other players have we heard the same refrain about? And how long are we going to have to keep hearing it? Liriano was a player who came into the majors through this organization, who Twins coaches have worked with extensively over the years, and who is still under 30 years old. This is a guy the Twins should have been able to keep if they wanted. An extension during last season would have probably gotten the job done (though that would have robbed us of the great Pedro Hernandez and Eduardo Escobar).

[Rosterman]

The Liriano story will become a Twins myth, so to speak, like the Ortiz story.

 

Ortiz got too expensive. He was hurt. Yes, maybe he didn't see eye-to-eye with the Twins Way and coaching. The Twins had to cut him loose unless they felt the desire to pay more than they thought he was worth at the time. ALL the other teams except Boston passed on him. He signed for a salary that the Twins themselves would've been happy to pay, but you can't cut a salary that low to a player back then according to union rules and regs.

 

Liriano was fighting the Twins Way. Time will tell if he is putting unnecessary strain on his arm to get him a continued great contract next season. The Twins would not have been able to resign Liriano. Even for what Pittsburgh ended up paying him this season (remember, alot of other teams passed on giving him any sort of contract, Pittsburgh seemed nuts with their initial offer but ended up getting a steal because Liriano ended up being...Liriano). I would argue that there was too much bad blood happening with the Twins, that there was no way Liriano was going to be a Twins lifer. He had to get out. He had to go somewhere. The Twins actually got something for him. Better than having him add absolutely nothing to a losing season and walking. Escobar and Hernandez might actually be capable backups for another season or two. Maybe one will shine and get flipped for another prospect or two and something will come of that.

 

These days it is all about money. How much a team will pay. How much a player wants. And do either really need each other. We'll probably see it happen with Morneau...the Twins lowballing a player again and him signing elsewhere for a competitive contract that the Twins could match. We saw it in Nathan...why do I have to ask the Twins to match something someone offered me. We saw it in Cuddyer, who held out ad got what he was seeking and the Twins seemed happy getting a lower priced alternative. We saw it in Kubel who was low-balled by the Twins for a one-year contract and ended up with a respectible multi-year deal.

 

Stop complaining about Liriano (and still Ortiz). We got nothing for Nathan, Kubel, Cuddyer...no Escobar, no Hernandez, no additional year of Lecroy as DH and third-string catcher. The reality is that a team has to strike early and wrap up a player (and then we get Mays and Blackburn and Silva) or play it loose and take the risk of the walk.

[Winston Smith]

"I agree that no one should get the blame on the Twins side......"

 

This seems to be the mantra of the front office, coaching staff and loyalists. Nobody is to blame for the last 3 years of sucktitude. Nobody is to blame for many players leaving and having greater success elsewhere. Nobody is to blame for no playoff wins in 9 years.

It can't be anyones fault, sh** happens.

[nicksaviking]

I agree that no one should get the blame on the Twins side for Liriano's new found success. It hurts to see him do it in a different uniform.. But that fact that he may be unmasking his true potential is pretty awesome. He's always been fun to watch, just most of the time not because he's being successful. If anything, the White Sox should feel the most butt hurt. They have us two (decent? Mediocre?) players for a 1-2 month flyer on Liriano.. And it was ugly. There was no way he was ever going to come back to the Twins anyways. Just was not meant to be any more (as in him finding success here).

 

Terrible MLB players. The White Sox cleared 40-man roster space by pawning off two AAAA players on a division rival. These two guys are still clogging up the Twins 40-man which is going to have some tough decisions coming up.

[nicksaviking]

"I agree that no one should get the blame on the Twins side......"

 

This seems to be the mantra of the front office, coaching staff and loyalists. Nobody is to blame for the last 3 years of sucktitude. Nobody is to blame for many players leaving and having greater success elsewhere. Nobody is to blame for no playoff wins in 9 years.

It can't be anyones fault, sh** happens.

 

When you put it that way, we as fans have actually let the Twins down.

[h2oface]

When a story like this becomes recurring, to me, it represents a drastic problem with those perpetrating the current "Twins Way". All of them. Over the last decade or so, there are several stories like this, and the players themselves have takes that support there was a problem with the way they were treated, and their performance blossomed when relieved of the "way".

[gil4]

There was no way he was ever going to come back to the Twins anyways. Just was not meant to be any more (as in him finding success here).

 

I thought there was a chance because Bobby Cuellar moved up from Rochester to be the Twins' bullpen coach. I have vague recollections of Cuellar receiving credit for some of Liriano's early success, and it seems like I've periodically heard that they worked well together. I was hoping the Twins would re-sign him and Cuellar wiould help him turn back into the 2010 Liriano (or better.)

[gil4]

Deduno? All I know is he's been pitching in the majors and he wasn't before, so he appears to have improved.

 

The discussion was about whether Anderson had helped anyone improve once they reached the majors. Someone used Deduno as an example, but has he really improved since he moved up to the Twins? Or did he improve in AAA to get called up and then stagnate?

 

(I think he had improved some until his shoulder started giving him problems.)

[Old Twins Cap]

When you put it that way, we as fans have actually let the Twins down.

 

It is our fault. Look at attendance: 30K regularly, sometimes a lot more.

 

What motivation does the Twins FO have for doing something different?

 

It's working just fine the way it's going now.

[iastfan112]

When a story like this becomes recurring, to me, it represents a drastic problem with those perpetrating the current "Twins Way". All of them. Over the last decade or so, there are several stories like this, and the players themselves have takes that support there was a problem with the way they were treated, and their performance blossomed when relieved of the "way".

 

Ortiz, Liriano and ?

 

JJ Hardy really isn't an example, he's hit about as well the past two seasons as he would've back in his season with the Twins if he'd avoided the wrist injury.

 

Carlos Gomez and Kyle Lohse aren't examples as they didn't succeed until a number of years after they left(half a decade in Lohse's case).

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Well according to Liriano, his command improved due to changing his arm angle.

 

Fastball command sparks Liriano comeback | TribLIVE

 

Seems like those kind of adjustments generally fall under the realm of coaches, so yes, I'd say Anderson does deserve some scrutiny for not trying this technique with Liriano while in Minnesota.

Not to give Anderson an out, but maybe the guy was so befuddled he became uncoachable. Change of scenery might be some of it.

[Teflon]

I don't think it's Liriano's success that's so hard to stomach as it is our entire starting staff's lack thereof.

[Mike Sixel]

Did Hendriks get better? Gibson? Albers? Deduno? Worley? Pelfrey? Correia?

 

Which pitchers got better the more they worked with Anderson in the last 5 years?

[TheLeviathan]

It is our fault. Look at attendance: 30K regularly, sometimes a lot more.

 

What motivation does the Twins FO have for doing something different?

 

It's working just fine the way it's going now.

 

Excellent point. And that's the scary thing...when we start speaking with our checkbooks, it's only going to make some of the team's tendencies dig in even deeper.

 

To me, the best reason to rush Sano/Rosario/Buxton is to get them up before the crowds start to dwindle and all that cash that everyone plans to spend in three years doesn't dry up. (I don't agree with rushing them, but if I was going to pick a reason to, that would be it)

[bird]

Did Hendriks get better? Gibson? Albers? Deduno? Worley? Pelfrey? Correia?

 

Which pitchers got better the more they worked with Anderson in the last 5 years?

 

Now THIS is hilarious!

 

Well, mike, ya got me there. Great point. And perfect examples. I mean, of COURSE all these guys would have done better if only they had a competetent pitching coach.

 

Wow, just wow.

[Mike Sixel]

Now THIS is hilarious!

 

Well, mike, ya got me there. Great point. And perfect examples. I mean, of COURSE all these guys would have done better if only they had a competetent pitching coach.

 

Wow, just wow.

 

I can only give examples that are real, I can't just make up names. So, I named some names. Go ahead, name the MLB pitcher that got better the longer he worked with Anderson.

[bird]

From the current roster? OK. Perkins, Swarzak, Duensing, Burton, Pressly, Deduno, Fien, Burton, Roenicke, Thielbar, and Albers. All better than when they came here. Pedro Hernandez too. Oh, and the argument can be strongly made that both Liriano and Lohse got better under Anderson before they got worse. Go figure. Which is why I think it's specious at best to pin Liriano on Anderson.

 

And one can easily expand the list by looking at rosters from previous years. And one could make a second list of all the pitchers who got crappy once they left here. My guess is that if you made a list in support of Anderson and a second one that incriminates him, the favorable one would be much much longer. After all, he's a MLB pitching coach.

 

And as for your "real" names, Albers, Worley, Gibson, Pelfrey, Correia... come on, mike. Those aren't valid examples of anything! Worley got injured. Albers, Hendriks, and Gibson are wet behind the ears and the jury's out. Pelfrey is a veteran coming coming back from injury, and Correia certainly has been exactly as advertised. Do you really think you made a case against Anderson with these examples? And with the standard being that, since they didn't get "better", even if they didn't get worse, Andy's a bad coach? Wow, just wow.

[LaBombo]

From the current roster? OK. Perkins, Swarzak, Duensing, Burton, Pressly, Deduno, Fien, Burton, Roenicke, Thielbar, and Albers. All better than when they came here. Pedro Hernandez too.

So the starters he's helped improve are Deduno, Albers, and Hernandez. But you already acknowledged the jury is out on Albers, and Hernandez didn't actually improve.

 

So Deduno is the one starter you can name that Anderson's improved.

 

He's certainly been fun to watch, but so were other low-K groundballers like Blackburn, Mays, and Silva at some relatively brief point in their careers.

[Nick Nelson]

Do the Twins have a bad pitching coach or just bad pitchers? That's the core issue here. This team had pretty good pitching staffs for many years under Anderson, back when they had the ability to identify decent talent.

 

Also, Birdwatcher, please make your points without repetitively adding remarks like "Wow, just wow" at the end. No need for that.

[Reginald Maudling's Shin]

Albers has 3 starts. How do we know Andy helped him? What adjustments did he gave to make after the first two complete game (almost) shutouts?

 

Liriano probably just needed a change in scenery and a new voice, and a kick on the ass to be honest. But overall, Nick is right in that this outcome is unacceptable. It's almost surreal that a guy can go from worst starter on the worst staff in baseball to CY candidate over the course of one offseason. The Twins let go a guy who is now a legit CY candidate in his prime for nothing. If its not an indictment on Anderson and the coaching staff then I don't know what is. They failed in getting production out of a guy with a lot of talent, bottom line.

[LaBombo]

Do the Twins have a bad pitching coach or just bad pitchers? That's the core issue here. This team had pretty good pitching staffs for many years under Anderson, back when they had the ability to identify decent talent.

Not saying Anderson is bad, just saying that there doesn't seem to be much evidence that he's turned many starters around.

 

If I had a choice between the Twins dropping Anderson or their dreadful infatuation with pitching to contact, well, let's just say there wouldn't be a lot of pacing or head-scratching...

[IdahoPilgrim]

Personally I don't see how this year proves anything either way. We already knew he had talent, and we already knew that occasionally he would put it together for a banner year (2006,2010,2013?).

 

The knock on Liriano has always been can he do it consistently (yes, there's that word again:o)? I don't care if he does win the Cy Young this year. Great for him, and as someone who likes rooting for underdogs, I'm happy for Pittsburgh and their fans. Unless he does the same thing next year then nothing in the Liriano story has changed and any comments on coaching staff effectiveness are moot.

[Mr. Brooks]

The Liriano story will become a Twins myth, so to speak, like the Ortiz story.

 

Ortiz got too expensive. He was hurt. Yes, maybe he didn't see eye-to-eye with the Twins Way and coaching. The Twins had to cut him loose unless they felt the desire to pay more than they thought he was worth at the time. ALL the other teams except Boston passed on him. He signed for a salary that the Twins themselves would've been happy to pay, but you can't cut a salary that low to a player back then according to union rules and regs.

 

Liriano was fighting the Twins Way. Time will tell if he is putting unnecessary strain on his arm to get him a continued great contract next season. The Twins would not have been able to resign Liriano. Even for what Pittsburgh ended up paying him this season (remember, alot of other teams passed on giving him any sort of contract, Pittsburgh seemed nuts with their initial offer but ended up getting a steal because Liriano ended up being...Liriano). I would argue that there was too much bad blood happening with the Twins, that there was no way Liriano was going to be a Twins lifer. He had to get out. He had to go somewhere. The Twins actually got something for him. Better than having him add absolutely nothing to a losing season and walking. Escobar and Hernandez might actually be capable backups for another season or two. Maybe one will shine and get flipped for another prospect or two and something will come of that.

 

These days it is all about money. How much a team will pay. How much a player wants. And do either really need each other. We'll probably see it happen with Morneau...the Twins lowballing a player again and him signing elsewhere for a competitive contract that the Twins could match. We saw it in Nathan...why do I have to ask the Twins to match something someone offered me. We saw it in Cuddyer, who held out ad got what he was seeking and the Twins seemed happy getting a lower priced alternative. We saw it in Kubel who was low-balled by the Twins for a one-year contract and ended up with a respectible multi-year deal.

 

Stop complaining about Liriano (and still Ortiz). We got nothing for Nathan, Kubel, Cuddyer...no Escobar, no Hernandez, no additional year of Lecroy as DH and third-string catcher. The reality is that a team has to strike early and wrap up a player (and then we get Mays and Blackburn and Silva) or play it loose and take the risk of the walk.

 

The bolded is not accurate at all.

Ortiz played his last year here for 950k, then went to BOST where he signed for $1.25 million. That is a pay raise, not a pay cut.

In fact, he was still under team control, if the Twins wanted him all they had to do was offer ARB, which would have paid him only slightly more than he signed with BOST for, probably about $1.5 to $1.8 million.

[bird]

So the starters he's helped improve are Deduno, Albers, and Hernandez. But you already acknowledged the jury is out on Albers, and Hernandez didn't actually improve.

 

So Deduno is the one starter you can name that Anderson's improved.

 

He's certainly been fun to watch, but so were other low-K groundballers like Blackburn, Mays, and Silva at some relatively brief point in their careers.

 

LaBombo, don't miss my point. My point is that we can make a bunch of lists of pitchers who improved and declined, here or somewhere else, but that doing so doesn't really prove squat diddly. I don't have the foggiest idea as to whether Anderson is a below average MLB pitching coach or not, and neither do you. As for Liriano? There are a ton of variables- his TJ recovery, his messed up head, Anderson, the Chicago pitching coach that smugly claimed he had just the right tweak in mind- and we're all just guessing about why he was the Franchise here, then an erratic mess here and in Chicago, and now a Cy Young candidate again.

 

Some people are lashing out at Anderson. I'm not defending him, just merely pointing out that you have to be awfully astute to have figured out that Anderson's the culprit. I think the Anderson bashers are guessing, and in some cases the examples in support of their view are so flimsy that they're funny.

[bird]

Albers has 3 starts. How do we know Andy helped him? What adjustments did he gave to make after the first two complete game (almost) shutouts?

 

We don't know if Andy helped him. That's the point.

 

Alber's name was thrown out there by mike wants wins as proof that, since Andy didn't "improve" him, he must be a bad coach. I threw him on a "good coach" list to show how ridiculous it is to throw him on ANY list and claim it means something.

[Guest USAFChief]

I don't think the takeaway from Liriano is "Anderson is a bad coach."

 

I think the takeaway is "the Twins as an organization are more comfortable giving money to a low floor, low ceiling pitcher like Kevin Carries, who would serve just fine as rotation insurance on a good team but is ill suited to really improve your team, than they are a guy like Liriano, who might bomb but has proven to have the talent to really be a difference maker."

 

IMO that is what is hard to take, and what must change. And I put the blame for that on the GM.