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Aww, Morneau. Can we keep him?


Monkeypaws

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That is why I don't want Morneau on a 3 year deal. If Sano is a disaster at 3B and has to be moved to 1B, you are now stuck with Morneau for 2 more years, and can ONLY play him at DH, where we have plenty of options.

 

Reports were that Plouffe and Dozier's gloves were playable at SS. Reports don't always turn out to be true.

 

 

A 1 WAR is practically replacement level. We're splitting hairs at that point, especially on a team for which 1 win means absolutely nothing.

 

But you realize you are arguing against singing Morneau because you want to hold two positions open for Sano? You can't structure your roster planning for your young players to fail.

 

1.0 WAR isn't impressive, but there are only ten 1B with a war over 2.0. Only ten with a OPS over .800 and that includes DH's Adam Lind and Adam Dunn. He's still league average or at least within shouting distance. Aside from the long shot that Sano will be playing 1B in the next two years, who do you see internally who will likely be comparable to Morneau over that time frame?

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But you realize you are arguing against singing Morneau because you want to hold two positions open for Sano? You can't structure your roster planning for your young players to fail.

 

1.0 WAR isn't impressive, but there are only ten 1B with a war over 2.0. Only ten with a OPS over .800 and that includes DH's Adam Lind and Adam Dunn. He's still league average or at least within shouting distance. Aside from the long shot that Sano will be playing 1B in the next two years, who do you see internally who will likely be comparable to Morneau over that time frame?

 

Internal options include Plouffe, Colabello, Parmelee, Pinto, Sano, Romero, Vargas and DJ Hicks. Travis Harrison and AB Walker are probably too low in the system to make it within the next two years but in three they are possibilities.

 

External options include Abreau, Napoli, Lind, Loney, Morales, Morse, and Reynolds in 2014. That doesn't include anything creative like signing Brian McCann and splitting 1B/C duties between he and Mauer so they both get time away from the dish keeping them fresher into their 30's.

 

Some of those guys would be slightly better, some slightly worse, but all are potential options. The Twins can find someone for any length of contract they want without locking themselves into Morneau for multiple years. He is a risk they don't have to take.

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Plouffe an option for Morneau? Get real! Plouffe shouldn't even be on a ML team and never should ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Morneau. Finding an option for Plouffe can be done internally. There's not an internal option you mentioned that would even be considered for Morneau.

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Prediction: There won't be many posters who will want to be reminded of "Parmelee and Colabello can replace Morneau" a year from now.

 

Maybe, but it would be impossible to tell without giving them a chance, no?

 

I'll also go ahead and predict the same of people thinking that Morneau needs to be re-signed.

 

I really don't get it, other than the sentimental value, but I imagine if people take an objective look (IE not a Twins fan), there's no way they'd be happy if their team brought in Morneau for a significant deal, especially if they were a rebuilding team. Are there really fans on other boards in other MLB cities arguing their team should go out and get Morneau?

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Plouffe an option for Morneau? Get real! Plouffe shouldn't even be on a ML team and never should ever be mentioned in the same sentence as Morneau. Finding an option for Plouffe can be done internally. There's not an internal option you mentioned that would even be considered for Morneau.

 

You don't think Sano will out produce 2014-2016 Morneau? If that is the case then it likely doesn't matter what the Twins do because their future would take a huge hit. The Twins need Sano, Buxton and Meyer to turn into stars otherwise....

 

If you don't like the internal option then sign an external one. The point is you don't have to lock yourself into multiple years of Morneau. There are other options.

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Maybe, but it would be impossible to tell without giving them a chance, no?

 

I'll also go ahead and predict the same of people thinking that Morneau needs to be re-signed.

 

I really don't get it, other than the sentimental value, but I imagine if people take an objective look (IE not a Twins fan), there's no way they'd be happy if their team brought in Morneau for a significant deal, especially if they were a rebuilding team. Are there really fans on other boards in other MLB cities arguing their team should go out and get Morneau?

 

The question that is unanswerable is how many teams is Morneau their second choice if they can't get a better free agent?

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I sincerely hope the Twins let Justin walk. Right now he is a serviceable 1B at best and comparable players can be found on the open market every offseason.

 

Right now, Justin is 18th in WAR among 1B in 2012-13 at 1.2, sandwiched between Corey Hart and Garrett Jones.

 

The Morneau that was an MVP in 06 and well on his way to another in 2010 isn't coming back. Guys don't have 3 pedestrian years in their late 20s and early 30s and just return to form in their 30s.

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I won't be changing my opinion. And I don't read other boards, but I'd say other teams fans that are rebuilding would be happy with a guy that can hit .280, have around 20 homers and drive in 85 or so runs and play a solid first base saving those rebuilding infielders alot of errors.

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I doubt you see much of Sano next season. I'm talking next season with Morneau. The only way Sano gets much time is if we cut strings with Plouffe, which I'm all for. But, you'd better have Morneau's glove over there. And wouldn't it be great for Sano to have a years experience with Morneau.

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Alternatives to Morneau include Colabello, Parmelee and Mauer. I happen to believe that if Mauer played catcher less, he would hit more. While Mauer is still a fine catcher, his hitting is vital to this team going forward and I suspect he would be as good a defender as Morneau relatively soon. I think that Parmelee still has a chance to be a big league regular and that Colabello has shown just enough as a Twin to get a longer look. I'm ready for the Twins and Morneau to part ways and wish Justin well.

 

I don't want another Dougie Mint or Mark Grace at First Base! Joe Mauer can solve our short-term problems at Third Base w/ a platoon w/ Plouffe (Mauer is more than a good enough athlete to be above average defensively at that position) and still part-time behind the plate. With Doumit, Morneau and Willingham gone, so is the logjam.....giving Colabello & Parmelee the spots on the super-cheap, plus the Cuban- Jose Abreu (all-in offer of 6/$80M offer, we can dream, can't we?), or a James Loney or Kendrys Morales (on the budget, intermediate-term offer- 3 years/$X?), both are about the same age when the Twins signed Willingham and Doumit) to take the combined ABs at First base and DH.

 

Finally, no more 3-catcher lineups!

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I won't be changing my opinion. And I don't read other boards, but I'd say other teams fans that are rebuilding would be happy with a guy that can hit .280, have around 20 homers and drive in 85 or so runs and play a solid first base saving those rebuilding infielders alot of errors.

 

You've probably summed up the issue here indirectly. If you think Morneau will be reasonably capable of those numbers -- you think he's more likely to reach them than not -- then it's not crazy to re-sign him. I think those numbers are a reach for him as he ages another year.

 

Complete side note: Ran into this as I was looking at his stats. There's been some talk about Morneau going to a hitter friendly park because it will help him. Ironically, Morneau is hitting far better in target field than on the road:

 

Target Field: .305/.351/.500 8 HR in 242 PA

Away: .231/.293/.366 7 HR in 266 PA

 

I'm actually shocked.

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You don't think Sano will out produce 2014-2016 Morneau? If that is the case then it likely doesn't matter what the Twins do because their future would take a huge hit. The Twins need Sano, Buxton and Meyer to turn into stars otherwise....

 

Sano isn't a 1B, he plays 3B and by all accounts he's playing it quite well. Again, why are we holding two positions open for Sano? He's not going to be playing both.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think many truely think Plouffe, Colabello, Parmelee or Romero will be more productive than Morneau over the next couple of years. Vargas, Hicks and Harrison are still in A ball and none are even organizational top ten prospects. None will likely be ready for two years and even so, the odds are unlikely they will be league average 1B.

 

I sincerely hope the Twins let Justin walk. Right now he is a serviceable 1B at best and comparable players can be found on the open market every offseason.

 

Guys don't have 3 pedestrian years in their late 20's and early 30's and just return to form in their 30s.

 

Two questions. 1st, which free agents are you talking about? I'd be thrilled with the Cuban, Abreu, but let's get reasonable, Ryan almost surely won't pay $60+ million for him, the same goes for Brian McCann. What other available free agent 1B don't have production/injury concerns on par with Morneau? Lind, Napoli, Morales, Morse? You want James Loney? Well he's the answer to your question about guys having pedestrian season in their late 20's who for some reason return to form, and Loney's season seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors.

 

Question 2. If the other options are comparable, why wouldn't you rather have Morneau? His stated desire to be a Twin more than likely means he would come cheaper than comparable options.

 

Honestly, previous to this discussion, I didn't think Morneau would be returning and I thought that would be for the best. However I haven't heard any convincing arguements on not resigning him. I really doubt it is a personal dislike for him as everyone seems to like the guy, but the arguements for letting him walk seem pretty flimsy.

 

I just can't tell what the motivation is for getting rid of him. He won't be expensive and he's not blocking any prospects of any significance. I suspect it is a deeper desire to rock the boat and clean house. I have that urge too, but it starts with the front office and works it's way toward the coaching staff. Morneau is pretty low on my list when it comes to the blame game.

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Internal options include Plouffe, Colabello, Parmelee, Pinto, Sano, Romero, Vargas and DJ Hicks. Travis Harrison and AB Walker are probably too low in the system to make it within the next two years but in three they are possibilities.

 

External options include Abreau, Napoli, Lind, Loney, Morales, Morse, and Reynolds in 2014. That doesn't include anything creative like signing Brian McCann and splitting 1B/C duties between he and Mauer so they both get time away from the dish keeping them fresher into their 30's.

 

Some of those guys would be slightly better, some slightly worse, but all are potential options. The Twins can find someone for any length of contract they want without locking themselves into Morneau for multiple years. He is a risk they don't have to take.

 

I mentioned the McCann option previously. He wouldn't come cheap, but he wouldn't break the bank, either. Great 2-catcher option, not perfect because they're both left-handed, but give Colabello the RH part of a platoon a full-season trial to play a little First, a little DH and OF, and you have some pretty good balance with a McCann/Cola platoon there. I still think exploring the Mauer option part-time at Third until Sano arrives should be more fully explored (my hopes for Plouffe as a long-term option have unfortunately faded), whether they tried to "get creative" with McCann, or not.

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I doubt you see much of Sano next season. I'm talking next season with Morneau. The only way Sano gets much time is if we cut strings with Plouffe, which I'm all for. But, you'd better have Morneau's glove over there. And wouldn't it be great for Sano to have a years experience with Morneau.

 

I couldn't care less if Sano and Morneau play together. There are plenty of players that can provide guidance and are able to scoop a ball. If one of those is a good player and speaks Spanish all the better.

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Batting .270 with 15-20 homers and a .750 OPS is not good for a first baseman. Especially not at 6+ million bucks. It is astounding that people want mediocrity back and multi-year deals no less!!!!

 

If I knew that both Willingham and Doumit would be traded, I would consider resigning Justin to a one-year deal for more money. There is going to be a hole in the roster if those two are gone.

 

I also wouldn't mind all three gone.

 

BUT STILL . . . they can sign Morneau in the offseason. Trade him now by PAYING THE SALARY for the rest of the season. How is this a difficult decision, at all, by this front office?

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Sano isn't a 1B, he plays 3B and by all accounts he's playing it quite well. Again, why are we holding two positions open for Sano? He's not going to be playing both.

 

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I don't think many truely think Plouffe, Colabello, Parmelee or Romero will be more productive than Morneau over the next couple of years. Vargas, Hicks and Harrison are still in A ball and none are even organizational top ten prospects. None will likely be ready for two years and even so, the odds are unlikely they will be league average 1B.

 

 

 

Two questions. 1st, which free agents are you talking about? I'd be thrilled with the Cuban, Abreu, but let's get reasonable, Ryan almost surely won't pay $60+ million for him, the same goes for Brian McCann. What other available free agent 1B don't have production/injury concerns on par with Morneau? Lind, Napoli, Morales, Morse? You want James Loney? Well he's the answer to your question about guys having pedestrian season in their late 20's who for some reason return to form, and Loney's season seems like a lot of smoke and mirrors.

 

Question 2. If the other options are comparable, why wouldn't you rather have Morneau? His stated desire to be a Twin more than likely means he would come cheaper than comparable options.

 

Honestly, previous to this discussion, I didn't think Morneau would be returning and I thought that would be for the best. However I haven't heard any convincing arguements on not resigning him. I really doubt it is a personal dislike for him as everyone seems to like the guy, but the arguements for letting him walk seem pretty flimsy.

 

I just can't tell what the motivation is for getting rid of him. He won't be expensive and he's not blocking any prospects of any significance. I suspect it is a deeper desire to rock the boat and clean house. I have that urge too, but it starts with the front office and works it's way toward the coaching staff. Morneau is pretty low on my list when it comes to the blame game.

 

Justin's been my favorite Twin for quite some time, but have you forgotten his ongoing concussion issue? That is not a flimsy reason to be concerned. One more moderate-impact collision or slide resulting in something significant relating to his cranium is career-ending.

That and his 3-year ongoing struggle to return to his previous MVP form pretty much means you can project to come pretty close to his level of production at pennies on the dollar, no matter how low a figure Justin would be willing to sign for to stay here. I doubt they will "get creative" and actually spend the money they've saved the last 2 years, but that saved money in not re-signing Morneau can be re-directed and focused on signing more and better FA pitching and maybe upping the international signing budget.

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...the arguements for letting him walk seem pretty flimsy.

 

I just can't tell what the motivation is for getting rid of him.

 

That's a simple question to answer, IMO. Morneau will not be a contributor when the Twins are next competitive. There are others who have a potential to be useful in the future. Even if that potential is small it is still greater than zero. I can't see a reason to keep him.

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Let me answer all your questions before they close the thread.

 

1. Shane Wahl is right. We should trade Justin and give Colabello & Parmelee some more at bats to see what they have.

2. Old Nurse is right that we may never get the production out of either of them that we can get from Justin.

3. Everyone is wrong who wants to even consider a 3 year contract for Justin. The team has to protect itself regarding the concussion issue. Two years at the most, 1 year with an option would be ideal.

4. Stop trying to move Sano to 1B. Even ESPN guys say that if he cannot cut it at 3B it would be wrong to hide his awesome arm at 1B. He could move to RF.

5. All those who say that we should upgrade the 1B position seem to forget that Justin is among the best Twins hitters. That means that we have at least 5 (?) other positions that need an upgrade worse than 1B, along with several pitchers.

 

There. I'm tired.

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The 10/5 thing is also added in here. The right decision is blatantly obvious, but report after report is that the Twins aren't willing to pay the salary for this season . . . .

 

Bah...they are all liars, couldn't be that the Twins are drawing a cheap line.

 

i like the idea, while the team is bad, to take tread off Mauer's tires and play him more at first. That would hopefully allow that he can take more reps at catcher in the future that way. But again, we have guys just taking up spots that have no bearing on our future preventing that.

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That's a simple question to answer, IMO. Morneau will not be a contributor when the Twins are next competitive. There are others who have a potential to be useful in the future. Even if that potential is small it is still greater than zero. I can't see a reason to keep him.

 

People keep saying this but no one is providing reasonable examples. I don't think the Twins have even been linked to Abreu. McCann would also be double or triple the largest contract Ryan has ever handed out. Besides, if he finally does break the bank in free agency, aren't we all hoping it will be for a pitcher?

 

The younger internal options look like they will not cut it and/or are two or more years away. You suggested Napoli, Lind, Loney, Morales, Morse, and Reynolds would be preferable to Morneau. Please explain why; Morneau would likely be as cheap or cheaper and there is no reason he should require a longer deal then the other players. I would imagine to most neutral teams searching for a free agent 1B, Morneau would be at the top or near the top of this list.

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ARCIA is the best option....his OF defense is bad, have him and Mauer play some combo of 1B, with random young guy also playing RF/1B/DH. We KNOW Morneau is one of the worst 1B in baseball for the last two years.....why would they re-sign him? It is mindboggling to me.

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I won't be changing my opinion. And I don't read other boards, but I'd say other teams fans that are rebuilding would be happy with a guy that can hit .280, have around 20 homers and drive in 85 or so runs and play a solid first base saving those rebuilding infielders alot of errors.

 

Morneau hasn't hit .280 since 2010, hasn't hit 20 HR's since 2009, hasn't driven in 85 RBI since 2009, and hasn't had a positive dWAR since 2010.

 

If there are rebuilding teams that value Morneau so much, then why did exactly zero teams claim him on waivers?

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Last night's game made up my mind. Keep Morneau! I never want to see Colabello play firstbase again. Can he even catch a cold?

 

Apparently he was put there just so that we could be reminded of what some AAAA 1B play like. I like the Colabello story, hope he does well, but that was brutal.

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People keep saying this but no one is providing reasonable examples. I don't think the Twins have even been linked to Abreu. McCann would also be double or triple the largest contract Ryan has ever handed out. Besides, if he finally does break the bank in free agency, aren't we all hoping it will be for a pitcher?

 

The younger internal options look like they will not cut it and/or are two or more years away. You suggested Napoli, Lind, Loney, Morales, Morse, and Reynolds would be preferable to Morneau. Please explain why; Morneau would likely be as cheap or cheaper and there is no reason he should require a longer deal then the other players. I would imagine to most neutral teams searching for a free agent 1B, Morneau would be at the top or near the top of this list.

 

You're misrepresenting my points so I'll lay them out again.

 

1) Justin is a below average 1st baseman at this point in time. He will be 33 next year and 35+ when the Twins are next competitive and as such will not be helping this team win in the future.

 

2) There are many internal options that have some chance to be helpful in the future. Whether that chance is big or small is irrelevant. Any chance is larger than zero.

 

3) There are many external options. These range from long term solutions to cheap 1 year deals.

 

4) Given the range of options there is no reason to sign Morneau to a multiple year deal. I would prefer a long term solution, which probably means a FA but that seems unlikely given the Twins reservations. So an internal candidate seems the next best option. Perhaps one will turn into a long term solution. If the Twins will not sign an upgrade and have given up on the young guys then we should be looking at 1 year contracts so we can reassess the situation during the '14-15 off season, again looking for a long term solution. Resigning Morneau to a multi-year deal guarantees 1B will not be upgraded for the length of the contract.

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