Carroll Love vs. Punto Hate

[E. Andrew]

Interesting quick piece by Howard Sinker:

 

I'll paraphrase the point for quick readability (AVG/OBP/SLG):

 

Two years of Carroll:

.257/.327/.301

Seven years of Punto:

.248/.323./.324

 

"Both were three-position reserves in the infield, and their playing time had more to do with glove work than handling a bat."

 

Why the difference in opinion? Stop-gap for a losing team vs. weak link on a winning team? Age? Plate appearances?

 

Take it a step further, is Florimon getting the same losing-team treatment as Carroll? As much as I want to 'love' him, his bat is bad... bad, bad, bad: .216/.273/.325.

[ThePuck]

Gardy didn't go out of his way to protect Carroll saying things like if everyone else was doing their jobs, no one would talk about Carroll not hitting....Gardy never said signing Carroll was the teams #1 offseason priority and if signed would right away be his starting shortstop...Gardy never said wherever Carroll plays he's the best defender on the field.

 

I'm still convinced most people didn't hate Punto. The man gave his all every time he was put in the lineup. People had issues with the way Gardy utilized him, fawned over him, defended him, etc. They also may have had issues with Gardy preaching fundamentals to everyone and disregarding Punto's disregard for fundamentals.

[Mike Sixel]

Two thoughts:

 

1. I am not a fan of false hustle, and frankly he was not a great baserunner / decision maker...

2. This part is not fair to Punto, but is also why people don't like Favre: the team, manager, and media made him out to be something he's not, and did it over and over. It got tiresome and annoying. So, we took it out on Punto, not on the others....happens all the time in sports.

[ALessKosherScott]

One was a bad starter on a playoff team that couldn't afford holes. One was a decent bench player on a team with no expectations.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I've never seen Carroll slide head-first after hitting a routine ground ball.

[Boom Boom]

Carroll "love"? I think that's a little too strong. Carroll was tolerated because he was used appropriately.

 

I've seen more Punto jerseys than Carroll jerseys.

[Seth Stohs]

Punto is one of the more underappreciated players by the fan base. They could never get over that really bad offensive season, but he was a tremendous utility infielder. I'd put him ahead of Newman, Hale, Reboulet and Hocking among recent utility guys. He was great with the glove, and even if he didn't hit for much average, he took a lot of pitches and made pitchers work.

 

As for diving into first base, I wouldn't call it false hustle. It's not like he did it just to make it look like he was hustling. My assumption is he truly believed that he could get to the bag faster that way. And, if that's a crime, that's sad.

[Brock Beauchamp]

As for diving into first base, I wouldn't call it false hustle. It's not like he did it just to make it look like he was hustling. My assumption is he truly believed that he could get to the bag faster that way. And, if that's a crime, that's sad.

 

I liked Punto's hustle.

 

But it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that it's faster to run to first than leave your feet and dive at the bag.

[ThePuck]

even if he didn't hit for much average, he took a lot of pitches and made pitchers work.

 

 

That's the result when you're up there praying to be walked :-) JK, sort of...

[Larsbars08]

Punto was often an offensive black hole on some good 90 win teams that Gardy insisted on playing frequently. Carroll was an offensive black hole on some terrible 90 loss teams. Expectations make a big difference.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't hate Punto, but I could never get over him trying to score from 2nd base on an infield single in the playoffs vs. the Yankees, and being thrown out by about 65 feet.

Possibly the most boneheaded baserunning mistake I've seen since this:

 

[video=youtube;spx9ZeSYVTU]

[E. Andrew]

[Punto] took a lot of pitches and made pitchers work.

 

Yeah, that's where the article made me feel 'guilty', though the word isn't perfect. I never hated him, but I'd certainly take back a 30-year-old Nick Punto now, he'd be an awesome anchor for the infield in the next three years, compared to our in-house alternatives.

 

Here are your 2013 Minnesota Twins, with 100+ PA and above-average OBP:

 

DRUM ROLL PLEASE!....

 

Joe Mauer

Josh Willingham

 

COME ON DOWN!

[70charger]

A couple of things, and this is all completely subjective (though so is love and hate):

 

1. Punto was around for 7 years. That's a lot for a guy who can't hit. Carroll was here on a 2 year contract that ended up being cut short anyway. It's easier to hate a guy who overstays his welcome.

 

2. Carroll was used appropriately this year. You saw him on occasion, but he was not much used. He came off the bench when a better/younger/banged up option needed a break. Punto was almost always used between 100 - 130 games per year. Carroll was used way too much last year, but this year he only saw action in 59 games. That's appropriate. It's easier to tolerate below average play if you don't have to watch it every day.

 

3. Not that Punto was a bad guy or anything, but everyone talks about how Carroll is a consummate professional and all around good person. I think the fans respond to that.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Carroll wasn't over used when better alternatives were availabe.... Punto on the other hand...

[Mike Sixel]

Ok, not false hustle, but what do you call someone that slides into first base, instead of running through it? It slows you down, and increases the likelihood of injury. Should I respect that?

 

Again, though, it was really about bullet two, imo, for most fans. Gardy fawned over him like he was Mauer or something.

[drjim]

Carroll wasn't over used when better alternatives were availabe.... Punto on the other hand...

 

Better options?

[drjim]

Punto once slid headfirst into first base on a bunt that went foul. That's amazing on multiple levels.

[cmathewson]

They are basically the same guy except:

 

1. Carroll did all the little things right and Punto routinely failed to do the little things in key situations. I lost track of Punto's failed bunts and pop-ups with a runner on second a nobody out. And don't get me started on how many times he slid head first into first base on the back end of a DP.

 

2. Carroll was primarily used the way he was supposed to be: as a utility player. Gardy loved Punto so much, he tried to make him a starter at three different positions, all with abject failure.

 

3. The Twins Way makes 1 and 2 into a paradox: Why all the love for a guy who never played the Twins Way? Carroll offered no such paradox.

[ashbury]

I've never seen Carroll slide head-first after hitting a routine ground ball.

 

If he did, his head would end up looking like his hands.

[Chance]

Punto's .263 Average would be good enough for second on the Twins team for players playing at least 90 games.

 

Maybe something can be said about how Punto seems to find himself on winning teams...

[Badsmerf]

Punto was misused. That was the problem. Put him in Carroll's role and we would have loved him. Give him 500 AB's a year... majority at 3b... and people are going to scream.

[TheLeviathan]

I was wondering this other day with the goodbye lovefest for Carroll. Yeah, he was a professional and probably is a nice guy....but he wasn't particularly good at baseball for us either.

[snepp]

Maybe something can be said about how Punto seems to find himself on winning teams...

 

Two possibilities.

 

 

Coincidence, or dumb luck.

[gil4]

Carroll "love"? I think that's a little too strong. Carroll was tolerated because he was used appropriately.

 

I've seen more Punto jerseys than Carroll jerseys.

 

I've seen the same number of both. (zero, or one if you count the ones on their backs.)

[gil4]

Two possibilities.

 

 

Coincidence, or dumb luck.

 

Third possibility - good agent

[StormJH1]

It's an interesting point, but what really cemented it was the year that Gardy basically handed the 3rd base job to Punto. He had at least hit for average in years past, but a poor average that year coupled with the usual lack of extra-base hits rubbed people the wrong way.

 

Still, as has been pointed out by others, Punto was a far more popular player with the fanbase than Carroll ever was. It's kind of similar to Mauer - Mauer gets far and away the most criticism, but he's also the most beloved player since Kirby. Actually, you could argue that Mauer's popularity is Kirby (plus) Hrbek's hometown appeal (minus) postseason relevance.

 

Plus, Carroll had the (mis)fortune of playing for horrible Twins teams, and being viewed as an "alternative to Nishioka" in the middle infield. The stakes were much higher when Punto was being given at-bats as a regular, as opposed to being valued as a utility defender.

[gil4]

Punto's .263 Average would be good enough for second on the Twins team for players playing at least 90 games.

 

Maybe something can be said about how Punto seems to find himself on winning teams...

 

We didn't see the .263 Punto. We saw the .290/.352/.373/.725 Punto or the 210/.291/.271/.562 version. Granted, those were his two biggest extremes, but they were also consecutive years to emphasize the contrast, and they were the only two seasons in which he had over 500 plate appearances.

 

 

In 2007 Gardy had Punto in the starting lineup 135 time (150 total appearances) and Punto put up that hideous line with the .562 OPS. He had a good year in 2008 and turned that into 2 yrs/$8M. He was then mediocre in 2009 and 2010, which led to his depature as a free agent.

 

I didn't hate Punto. I didn't care about the quirky sliding. It just bothered me that a team that could have gone places despite a tight budget made it harder by misallocating $$, AB;s, and roster spots.

[LaBombo]

Punto is one of the more underappreciated players by the fan base. They could never get over that really bad offensive season, but he was a tremendous utility infielder. I'd put him ahead of Newman, Hale, Reboulet and Hocking among recent utility guys. He was great with the glove, and even if he didn't hit for much average, he took a lot of pitches and made pitchers work.

 

As for diving into first base, I wouldn't call it false hustle. It's not like he did it just to make it look like he was hustling. My assumption is he truly believed that he could get to the bag faster that way. And, if that's a crime, that's sad.

It's always a treat when one of the TD Mount Rushmore heads comes to life and talks about baseball. Out of respect, I put down my philly cheese steak Hot Pocket while reading your input, Seth. Disagree with much of what you said, though.

 

Punto's hypothetical belief system is wrong. Sliding into first has ranked right up there with Dusty Baker's Baseclogger Theory of On Base Percentage in the pantheon of common knowledge baseball fallacies for just about forever by now. Not faster. Injuries. Bad idea. The end.

 

Superman delusions aside, Punto also sometimes suffered from the Little League, situationally unaware 'run as fast as you can until someone tags you out' syndrome. Running out a routine grounder down 6 in the 9th is hustle. 'Digging for two' while you're 10 feet short of halfway to second when your soft infield popup is gloved is not just fake hustle, it's foolish.

 

Also, why compare L'il Nicky to bench players? Punto put up over 400 plate appearance per season for half a decade. Whatever his label, Punto spent the majority of his Twins career as the at bat equivalent of the lefty half of a platoon, which made him just about an everyday player. And a fairly bad one at that.

 

And he was a pretty bad almost-every-day player on a team that was expected to contend every year, not a stopgap on a rebuilder like Newman or Hocking in their 'peak' years. That made his offensive futility even more of a kick in the groin than the statistical nuisance that an actual utility player's would be.

 

Few people would deny that Punto was a good infielder. But shortstop is the make-or-break position for utility infielders, and in that respect, well, Punto was no Jeff Reboulet. Jmo. Also, Punto wasn't even Reb's mustache, which rocked the free world:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/152452/jeff_2bking.jpg

 

If Punto was really under-appreciated by the fan base, why was that? Was it because they didn't see that his uniform was dirty halfway through his warmup routine? Was it because they weren't listening to the incessant Twins spin machine's inane chatter about piranhas battling their small-ball tails off the right way while moving the runner over?

 

Or was it because they had no energy left to appreciate him due to the enormous workload generated by frequently under-appreciating a likely future first-ballot Hall of Famer? Maybe some of each.

 

Now that I've crossed the border between rant and diatribe, there's not much to lose by throwing in a summary. Punto probably generates criticism (including mine) out of proportion to his actual effect on the team for one basic reason. He represents an ugly byproduct of pitching to contact: overvaluing defense at the expense of offense.

 

That, and he never lived up to the lofty stats put up by Al Newman in comic relief. Who can forget the time he knocked TC Bear out, donned his costume, ran into the stands, and bit a lady's head off?

[ThePuck]

It's always a treat when one of the TD Mount Rushmore heads comes to life and talks about baseball. Out of respect, I put down my philly cheese steak Hot Pocket while reading your input, Seth. Disagree with much of what you said, though.

 

Punto's hypothetical belief system is wrong. Sliding into first has ranked right up there with Dusty Baker's Baseclogger Theory of On Base Percentage in the pantheon of common knowledge baseball fallacies for just about forever by now. Not faster. Injuries. Bad idea. The end.

 

Superman delusions aside, Punto also sometimes suffered from the Little League, situationally unaware 'run as fast as you can until someone tags you out' syndrome. Running out a routine grounder down 6 in the 9th is hustle. 'Digging for two' while you're 10 feet short of halfway to second when your soft infield popup is gloved is not just fake hustle, it's foolish.

 

Also, why compare L'il Nicky to bench players? Punto put up over 400 plate appearance per season for half a decade. Whatever his label, Punto spent the majority of his Twins career as the at bat equivalent of the lefty half of a platoon, which made him just about an everyday player. And a fairly bad one at that.

 

And he was a pretty bad almost-every-day player on a team that was expected to contend every year, not a stopgap on a rebuilder like Newman or Hocking in their 'peak' years. That made his offensive futility even more of a kick in the groin than the statistical nuisance that an actual utility player's would be.

 

Few people would deny that Punto was a good infielder. But shortstop is the make-or-break position for utility infielders, and in that respect, well, Punto was no Jeff Reboulet. Jmo. Also, Punto wasn't even Reb's mustache, which rocked the free world:

http://cdn0.sbnation.com/imported_assets/152452/jeff_2bking.jpg

 

If Punto was really under-appreciated by the fan base, why was that? Was it because they didn't see that his uniform was dirty halfway through his warmup routine? Was it because they weren't listening to the incessant Twins spin machine's inane chatter about piranhas battling their small-ball tails off the right way while moving the runner over?

 

Or was it because they had no energy left to appreciate him due to the enormous workload generated by frequently under-appreciating a likely future first-ballot Hall of Famer? Maybe some of each.

 

Now that I've crossed the border between rant and diatribe, there's not much to lose by throwing in a summary. Punto probably generates criticism (including mine) out of proportion to his actual effect on the team for one basic reason. He represents an ugly byproduct of pitching to contact: overvaluing defense at the expense of offense.

 

That, and he never lived up to the lofty stats put up by Al Newman in comic relief. Who can forget the time he knocked TC Bear out, donned his costume, ran into the stands, and bit a lady's head off?

 

I want to take this post out for a nice steak dinner and get it liquored up :-)

[LaBombo]

I want to take this post out for a nice steak dinner and get it liquored up :-)

Thanks, and you're now officially the primary character witness at my competency hearing, provided your rates are reasonable.

 

Also, if I had known my post was going out to dinner, I would've had it wear something a little nicer. Maybe next diatribe, after Correia's four year extension...