Still so far away/ the time is now.

[nicksaviking]

I count two, Correia and Gibson. Ryan has said several times it's a transitional year. That's another way of saying rebuilding, as if it really matters.

 

Which of those two crack the Detroit rotation? Because to get the division crown back, the Twins will have to get back to the Tigers level. Hell, I have doubts those two crack the White Sox, Indians or Royals rotations. Wade Davis is probably the only current starter in the entire division on par with Correia and Gibson at the moment.

 

You know how the White Sox say rebuild? With 28-year-old John Danks and four starters 25 or younger. The Twins say it with 25-year-old Kyle Gibson and four broken down or AAAA retreads that will not contribute to the future.

[Mike Sixel]

Move Arcia to 1B, sign Ellsbury to play LF or CF, put Hicks back in LF or CF and someone else in RF......sign one "legit" FA starter (take your pick, Ryan). If Hicks can't play, you at least have Ellsbury. He has not shown signs of aging, and could be the kind of vet the young guys can watch/learn from, while still being effective. He will not be cheap, but would help this roster a lot. When Buxton comes up, Ellsbury is your LF, and your OF defense goes from AWFUL to AWESOME just like that.

 

BTW, no way the Twins do this plan.....

[Mr. Brooks]

Which of those two crack the Detroit rotation? Because to get the division crown back, the Twins will have to get back to the Tigers level. Hell, I have doubts those two crack the White Sox, Indians or Royals rotations. Wade Davis is probably the only current starter in the eniter division on par with Correia and Gibson at the moment.

 

You know how the White Sox say rebuild? With 28-year-old John Danks and four starters 25 or younger. The Twins say it with 25-year-old Kyle Gibson and four broken down or AAAA retreads that will not contribute to the future.

 

Okay, lets all get a grip with Gibson.

He's thrown 140 innings after not pitching last year. Couple that with facing MLB hitters for the first time in his life.

Everyone needs to calm down. The sky is not falling regarding Gibson. He's got legit talent. He's not an ace, but he should be a solid #2, or really good #3.

He absolutely should and will be given a spot in the next year's rotation.

[Mike Sixel]

Okay, lets all get a grip with Gibson.

He's thrown 140 innings after not pitching last year. Couple that with facing MLB hitters for the first time in his life.

Everyone needs to calm down. The sky is not falling regarding Gibson. He's got legit talent. He's not an ace, but he should be a solid #2, or really good #3.

He absolutely should and will be given a spot in the next year's rotation.

 

I agree, but we don't know that....and if true, that's 1....stilll leaves plenty of room to acquire a real starter w/o blocking someone....

[Mr. Brooks]

I agree, but we don't know that....and if true, that's 1....stilll leaves plenty of room to acquire a real starter w/o blocking someone....

 

Yeah I agree for sure.

I'm just amazed at the overreaction to Gibson's struggles, it almost should be expected given all the circumstances.

[AROG]

No one rebuilds in a day. I don't have too many issues with the front office. TR has proven in the past that if he can get close to a team he feels is good enough, he will trade or pull in the FA's he needs to put it over the top.

 

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

[nicksaviking]

Okay, lets all get a grip with Gibson.

He's thrown 140 innings after not pitching last year. Couple that with facing MLB hitters for the first time in his life.

Everyone needs to calm down. The sky is not falling regarding Gibson. He's got legit talent. He's not an ace, but he should be a solid #2, or really good #3.

He absolutely should and will be given a spot in the next year's rotation.

 

I don't disagree at all, I was simply making the point that Gibson and Correia (who were mentioned before as capable pitchers) were in fact pitching worse than all but maybe one of the other 20 starters in the division.

 

Though another topic of discussion probably could be: Why are there seven other starters 25 or younger on the other four division teams and every single one of them is pitching better than the Twins prized prospect Gibson?

 

Regardelss Gibson is and shoud be in the future plans; I was actually pointing out that the White Sox had four pitchers Gibson's age in the rotation while the Twins continue to send out the vets to the detriment of the rebuild.

[Brock Beauchamp]

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

 

I cheer every time Gardy doesn't call for a bunt.

 

The bunt is a decent option when you need one run, maybe two runs in the right situation.

 

The bunt is also a very good way to make sure you only get one run, maybe two runs in the right situation.

 

And the Twins were losing by three runs. A bunt is a bad call in that situation.

[Mike Sixel]

No one rebuilds in a day. I don't have too many issues with the front office. TR has proven in the past that if he can get close to a team he feels is good enough, he will trade or pull in the FA's he needs to put it over the top.

 

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

 

What? Name the FA he signed in teh 2000s to put them over the top.

[nicksaviking]

No one rebuilds in a day. I don't have too many issues with the front office. TR has proven in the past that if he can get close to a team he feels is good enough, he will trade or pull in the FA's he needs to put it over the top.

 

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

 

No, Ryan is the problem. Dozier maybe should have bunted, but when you consider that he is the second best hitter on the team right now and NOBODY is getting hits with runners in scoring postion, Gardy likely decided to roll the dice. I don't know that Gardy is right for a rebuild, but blaming him is silly, he has nothing to work with.

[Mike Sixel]

I cheer every time Gardy doesn't call for a bunt.

 

The bunt is a decent option when you need one run, maybe two runs in the right situation.

 

The bunt is also a very good way to make sure you only get one run, maybe two runs in the right situation.

 

And the Twins were losing by three runs. A bunt is a bad call in that situation.

 

Correct, giving away outs is stupid, except near the end of the game when the score is VERY close. I hate the sacrifice bunt. HATE IT. The stats are super clear on this, btw. This is not some random opinion.

[ThePuck]

Here's a good article on the sacrifice bunt. BE AWARE, I am not giving an opinion one way or the other, just providing a link to read. Agree with it, don't agree with it...doesn't matter. It's a good read.

 

The Sacrifice Bunt: The Real Rally Killer | FanGraphs Baseball

[Mr. Brooks]

No one rebuilds in a day. I don't have too many issues with the front office. TR has proven in the past that if he can get close to a team he feels is good enough, he will trade or pull in the FA's he needs to put it over the top.

 

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

 

1) I know rebuilding isnt done in a day. Its 3 years into it now. It's not like I'm starting this thread in May of 2011.

 

2) When has Terry ever pulled the trigger on a big $$, high impact free agent? I think the closest to that is Josh Willingham, which was only 3/24.

IMO it is going to take more than that to turn this ship around, as good as our farm system is, it's only going to take you so far.

 

3) I disagree 100% on your bunting argument. This is the AL, and it's not 1985. One of my biggest beefs with Gardy has always been wasting outs playing "small ball". With runners on 1st and 2nd, and no outs, you should be thinking "we got a chance for a big inning here!" not, "nice, we have a chance to bunt a guy over, and hit a sac fly for 1 run!".

If it is a guy who can't hit, like a Florimon or a Clete Thomas, then sure maybe you consider it. But, IMO, with your 2nd best hitter up it shouldnt even cross your mind in the AL.

[jokin]

Which of those two crack the Detroit rotation? Because to get the division crown back, the Twins will have to get back to the Tigers level. Hell, I have doubts those two crack the White Sox, Indians or Royals rotations. Wade Davis is probably the only current starter in the entire division on par with Correia and Gibson at the moment.

 

You know how the White Sox say rebuild? With 28-year-old John Danks and four starters 25 or younger. The Twins say it with 25-year-old Kyle Gibson and four broken down or AAAA retreads that will not contribute to the future.

 

Which 2 would crack the Detroit rotation? I humbly ask and reiterate with emphasis what you later related, which 2 would crack the White Sox rotation?

 

The Sox have a clear 24 year old Ace, 3 very exciting additional young, live arms and a veteran stabilizing, innings-eating, presence in Danks. (Imagine feeling so comfortable about your rebuild, that you perceive you have the luxury of trading away 1.5 years of Jake Peavy for prospects).

 

Patrick Reusse summed up the weekend series quite well yesterday evening. His disgusted comments were something to the effect of:

 

"Just look at the 2 positional lineups trotted out for this weekend series, with the exception of Joe Mauer, there isn't one player on the Twins who you would choose over the corresponding Sox player. Coupled with 4 exciting young SP arms, the Sox are poised to be ready to compete as early as next year. The Twins?..... Still appear to have more questions than answers in how and when this rebuild is pronounced "completed."

[Kwak]

This "arguement" is so bogus! If said FA is "blocking" said prospect then either said "prospect" isn't as good as advertised or the FA is very good. If the FA is "very good" it shouldn't be difficult to trade him. If the "prospect" isn't so hot--then why the burning need to promote him. This is especially true in pitchers--there are FIVE in the rotation--the teams #1 (who might not actually be a #1 anyplace else) isn't blocking the "prospect"--it's the #5 guy. Since he's #5, he is disposable anyway. The Twins DFA'd Livan Hernandez in August '08, and he "was credited" with 10 wins on his $5MM contract--this means another veteran can likewise be fired even with a sizeable chunk of money left on his contract in the future.

[Oxtung]

I don't disagree at all, I was simply making the point that Gibson and Correia (who were mentioned before as capable pitchers) were in fact pitching worse than all but maybe one of the other 20 starters in the division.

 

Though another topic of discussion probably could be: Why are there seven other starters 25 or younger on the other four division teams and every single one of them is pitching better than the Twins prized prospect Gibson?

 

Regardelss Gibson is and shoud be in the future plans; I was actually pointing out that the White Sox had four pitchers Gibson's age in the rotation while the Twins continue to send out the vets to the detriment of the rebuild.

 

So you're making the argument that the twins should promote ______ to the rotation instead of signing vets? Coming into this season Meyer hadn't pitched above a-ball and May had struggled at AA. I guess the twins could have filled the rotation with two of Hernandez, De Vries, Darnell, etc but that isn't really going young either. Pat Dean? I guess I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for here. It doesn't seem like the twins were in a position to call up a bunch of pitching prospects to start the season out thus they needed some veterans.

[drjim]

I agree, but we don't know that....and if true, that's 1....stilll leaves plenty of room to acquire a real starter w/o blocking someone....

 

I'm not sure who you are disagreeing with here. Is anyone actually concerned abiut too much pitching depth? I think these references are more to blocking position players.

[drjim]

No one rebuilds in a day. I don't have too many issues with the front office. TR has proven in the past that if he can get close to a team he feels is good enough, he will trade or pull in the FA's he needs to put it over the top.

 

My beef is with Gardy. Yesterday is a prime example of not bunting with Dozier to move the runners on first and second over. He refuses to play small ball. That is the roster he has. He disguises it with the "they need to see if they can hit in these situations" bs. You play the game the right way, all the time. It creates the winning attitudes needed to create winning teams. Dougy fresh has it right in Ft. Myers. Winning is contagious. Gardy isn't a winner.

 

So a lack of bunting is the problem?

[drjim]

Move Arcia to 1B, sign Ellsbury to play LF or CF, put Hicks back in LF or CF and someone else in RF......sign one "legit" FA starter (take your pick, Ryan). If Hicks can't play, you at least have Ellsbury. He has not shown signs of aging, and could be the kind of vet the young guys can watch/learn from, while still being effective. He will not be cheap, but would help this roster a lot. When Buxton comes up, Ellsbury is your LF, and your OF defense goes from AWFUL to AWESOME just like that.

 

BTW, no way the Twins do this plan.....

 

Not sure I like this. Boston has more money, lesser of prospects coming up, they are closer to competing, and they know the health and ability of Ellbury better than anyone. If they pass on him not sure overpaying for 5-6 years is the best plan.

 

How big of a contract would you be willing to go?

[nicksaviking]

Which 2 would crack the Detroit rotation? I humbly ask and reiterate with emphasis what you later related, which 2 would crack the White Sox rotation?

 

The Sox have a clear 24 year old Ace, 3 very exciting additional young, live arms and a veteran stabilizing, innings-eating, presence in Danks. (Imagine feeling so comfortable about your rebuild, that you perceive you have the luxury of trading away 1.5 years of Jake Peavy for prospects).

 

Patrick Reusse summed up the weekend series quite well yesterday evening. His disgusted comments were something to the effect of:

 

"Just look at the 2 positional lineups trotted out for this weekend series, with the exception of Joe Mauer, there isn't one player on the Twins who you would choose over the corresponding Sox player. Coupled with 4 exciting young SP arms, the Sox are poised to be ready to compete as early as next year. The Twins?..... Still appear to have more questions than answers in how and when this rebuild is pronounced "completed."

 

And it's not like the White Sox are dipping into their loaded farm system, it has been ranked near the bottom for years. Of the four young arms in their rotation, only Sale was highly regarded. The other three never sniffed a top 100 list, yet the White Sox were able to identify, acuire, coach and groom your garden variaty minor league pitchers into useful major leaguers.

[nicksaviking]

So you're making the argument that the twins should promote ______ to the rotation instead of signing vets? Coming into this season Meyer hadn't pitched above a-ball and May had struggled at AA. I guess the twins could have filled the rotation with two of Hernandez, De Vries, Darnell, etc but that isn't really going young either. Pat Dean? I guess I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for here. It doesn't seem like the twins were in a position to call up a bunch of pitching prospects to start the season out thus they needed some veterans.

 

Yeah, it's baren down there. But's baren due to this teams incompetance when it comes to identifing capable pitching in the amature ranks. Still, it's not like the White Sox young and promising staff is made up of top 100 prospects, only Sale was highly regarded.

 

Darnell, Dean and Hendricks should be in the rotation with Gibson along with which ever flavor of the month jounryman arm the team wants to roll the dice with this month. When healthy, Worely, Hernandez and Diamond should be in the rotation until it is made abundantly clear they cannot cut it. And boy does that make me sick typing that.

 

To be clear, I don't like any of those guys aside from Gibson long term, but at least they'd be trying to look for solutions instead of trying to paint a slightly rosier shade of pink on an already lost season. There is absolutely zero reason to keep pitching Correia and Pelfrey, there is nothing further to gain.

[jokin]

So you're making the argument that the twins should promote ______ to the rotation instead of signing vets? Coming into this season Meyer hadn't pitched above a-ball and May had struggled at AA. I guess the twins could have filled the rotation with two of Hernandez, De Vries, Darnell, etc but that isn't really going young either. Pat Dean? I guess I'm not sure what exactly you're arguing for here. It doesn't seem like the twins were in a position to call up a bunch of pitching prospects to start the season out thus they needed some veterans.

 

Not speaking for Nick, but I think he's more talking about the starting pitching cupboard being bare, and not nearly enough has been done to keep that cupboard fully stocked- for immediate, intermediate and future time frames. The distant future (2017-18?) is beginning to look a lot better with the likes of Stewart, Gonsalves and Berrios. But the immediate and intermediate still looks fairly bleak.

 

Your highlighted comment is the problem, their philosophy needs radical adjustment. Why not call Kyle Gibson up when his arm was still fresh right after his near-no hitter in Rochester (preserving his Arb-2 status in favor of more starts for Worley and PJ seems pretty silly at this point)? Why not call up Albers, as veteran after veteran was continually flailing and failing in the spring and early summer? How can a rebuilding team seriously throw Perez and Harden into the mix as potential starting options on the depth chart?

 

Where is the failure in the Twins system that makes them unable to identify near-major league ready potential starters- ie, Ryan Pressly was their Rule 5 pick, but a failed starter..... A more major league ready starter available in the draft was 23 year old Kyle Lobstein, who could start for many teams, but is blocked in Detroit, so they have him stashed in AAA (I advocated for Lobstein or Lara at the time). The Twins needed more starting pitching options! Their pen was just fine! In another example among many, why would TR turn his nose up at acquiring Todd Redmond, for free on the waiver wire (he had 2 chances to claim him this spring)?

[jokin]

Those Chicago teams are sure popular on this board.

 

Rebuilding teams that appear to be pursuing all avenues for the rebuild deserve to have attention thrown their way. The excitement level on the South Side concerning the young guys now with the Sox and the potential of all the recently-acquired prospects deserves our attention and possibly begrudging admiration, not bulletin board sarcasm, mockery and ridicule.

[Kwak]

Teams rebuilding without "Top 100" prospects? Sacriledge! How are these guys expected to become competant major leaguers? Yes I am tired of the refrain "...but we have the best minor league system in baseball." The recent promotions from minors to majors have yet to identify anyone who will be a future all-star and there is considerable question whether any of these will be worth a contract tender when eligible for salary arbitration.

 

Arcia? Well let's say he won't ever be confused with Tony Oliva.

[Mike Sixel]

Not sure I like this. Boston has more money, lesser of prospects coming up, they are closer to competing, and they know the health and ability of Ellbury better than anyone. If they pass on him not sure overpaying for 5-6 years is the best plan.

 

How big of a contract would you be willing to go?

 

They have a CF tearing up AAA right now....they'd probably use the money elsewhere.

 

I'd go 5, $70/80? they have money to burn after this year. Get a legit hitter in there with Mauer. Get a legit defender in there. Imagine how much better the pitching is with him in LF, Buxton in CF, and Hicks / someone else in RF. Heck, if they refuse to sign anyone else, I'd give him a bundle next year, front loaded......

[AROG]

The bunting in that situation was just one particular reference to Gardy not promoting a winning attitude. That was my big beef. You can lose but do so playing the game to win. When you're down by 2 or 3 in the middle innings, moving 2 runners to scoring position with your first out is baseball. The only situation you wouldn't do that is with your RBI guys. Just having them swing away? anyone can manage that. We don't need to pay someone to tell people to swing away.

 

I am concerned that Gardy is sending the message that winning the game doesn't matter, just go get your work in. Who cares about situations, just get the work in.

[Mike Sixel]

no, AROG, it is bad baseball. You should not give up outs in the middle innings. The math on this is super, super clear. It is bad strategy. It promotes losing, not winning. Bunting there is playing to lose, not playing to win.

[ashbury]

Rebuilding teams that appear to be pursuing all avenues for the rebuild deserve to have attention thrown their way. The excitement level on the South Side concerning the young guys now with the Sox and the potential of all the recently-acquired prospects deserves our attention and possibly begrudging admiration, not bulletin board sarcasm, mockery and ridicule.

 

Moderator's note: this thread has already drawn the attention of the moderators and further sarcasm, mockery and ridicule is not being tolerated. The post you responded to has been deleted as it was clearly flame-bait - moderation doesn't happen instantaneously - please don't take the bait.

[Brock Beauchamp]

When you're down by 2 or 3 in the middle innings, moving 2 runners to scoring position with your first out is baseball.

 

It's bad baseball and the stats tell us this in a myriad of ways. Moving runners over is from a time when baseball managers just didn't know any better; we now have the information that tells us it's a bad idea because it limits your ability to score runs (you may be more likely to score one run but that's all you're going to score). Bunting, by and large, is not a winning strategy... The exact opposite, actually.

 

Honestly, any manager who bunts before the eighth inning with anything more than a one run game differential should be tossed out on his ass for being unable to understand simple mathematics.

[Siehbiscuit]

List of Twins players/starters that would not even be on a team not named the Astros or Marlins:

 

CF - Clete Thomas

RF - Wilkin Ramirez

SS - Doug Bernier

 

Andrew Albers, Pedro Hernandez.

 

Players that might be a decent backup (or emergency 5th starter) on a ML club:

 

C- Ryan Doumit

SS - Pedro Florimon

 

Kevin Correia, Samuel Deduno and Mike Pelfrey

 

Players that could possibly start on a small handful of teams:

 

1B- Justin Morneau

3B - Trevor Plouffe

LF - Josh Willingham

 

Kyle Gibson, Scot Diamond

 

Solid everyday starters:

 

C- Joe Mauer

LF - Oswaldo Arcia

2B- Brian Dozier (barely makes the list)

 

Clearly, the quality of players is an issue. Pitchers and position players. Gibson is the only one that I think will be better next year. The Twins have SOOOOO many bad players that when someone mediocre is called up we as fans are excited. Willingham for example had a career year last year, but had been a journeyman prior to that. He isn't that good, yet he's our cleanup hitter! I think as Twins fans we live in a bubble and forget how good some of the players around the league really are. The talent level at the MLB level in this organization right now is abysmal! The Twins have a guy at AA that has hit 31 homers (he's 20) and the Twins MLB HR leader has 14 dingers. Our 2B is just off the clubhouse lead and his name isn't Robinson Cano. Our lineup is every bit as terrible as out pitching.