Article: What's the Plan: Alex Meyer

[drjim]

What's the criteria for an exception and how often is it granted?

 

I think it would be granted if it is proven that Meyer is healthy enough to pitch. They wouldn't want him dropping out right away and leaving the team short.

 

Ryan said a couple days ago that six spots are locked in and one is in "flux". I would guess that was a reference to Meyer.

[Mr. Brooks]

What's the criteria for an exception and how often is it granted?

 

From what I understand, as long as the Twins sign a waiver saying that Meyer doesn't have any significant pitch/innings limit (within common sense), the exemption would almost certainly be granted.

[jokin]

I can't think of one good reason why an MLB assistant GM would be better off not understanding what something as simple as FIP is.

Like the article says, even if you choose not to use it, it is SHOCKING that he literally did not even know what it meant. It's like they live in a bubble.

 

While not surprising one bit....this is still just plain sad.

[drjim]

While not surprising one bit....this is still just plain sad.

 

I would look at it a little different. If you know and understand the components of fip then it probably doesn't matter a whole lot if you know what fip actually is (it is a made up number after all). Despite the terrible k rates of starters, I'm quite confident the Twins front office knows that ks and gbs are good and that bbs and hrs are bad.

 

My much bigger concern is how far behind they are in other metrics/analysis that we don't even have access to as casual fans. Good scouting, which the Twins have, can neutralize this to some degree but they are definitely leaving value on the table.

[jokin]

It's a back to the future situation... Ryan carries a 5 pounder notebook (like a big three ring binder size) to ST games with him

 

Gee, my Dell Notebook only weighs about 3 pounds.... oh wait.....you meant something else, didn't you? TR walks around with 5 pounds of paper, huh?

[Mr. Brooks]

I would look at it a little different. If you know and understand the components of fip then it probably doesn't matter a whole lot if you know what fip actually is (it is a made up number after all). Despite the terrible k rates of starters, I'm quite confident the Twins front office knows that ks and gbs are good and that bbs and hrs are bad.

 

My much bigger concern is how far behind they are in other metrics/analysis that we don't even have access to as casual fans. Good scouting, which the Twins have, can neutralize this to some degree but they are definitely leaving value on the table.

 

My point is that it seems to me you would have to be living in a cave or something to be an assistant GM in MLB, and to have never come across, or discussed something as basic, simple, and common as FIP.

That tells me that the Twins only surround themselves with themselves, there is no input or dialogue with anyone outside of a very small group, which is alarming, and explains part (not all) of how we got where we are.

[jokin]

I would look at it a little different. If you know and understand the components of fip then it probably doesn't matter a whole lot if you know what fip actually is (it is a made up number after all). Despite the terrible k rates of starters, I'm quite confident the Twins front office knows that ks and gbs are good and that bbs and hrs are bad.

 

My much bigger concern is how far behind they are in other metrics/analysis that we don't even have access to as casual fans. Good scouting, which the Twins have, can neutralize this to some degree but they are definitely leaving value on the table.

 

Point well taken in your first paragraph, but isn't Anthony's demonstrated ignorance just symptomatic to the stated concerns we all have contained in your second paragraph?

 

I am ever-reminded when the "wizard inadvertently drew back the curtain" during a spring training interview (I think it was StarTribune). You must remember the interview with TR and Gardy?.... when unassuming Jack Goin happened upon Ryan's office for a moment, and when he left, both the GM and the manager felt most comfortable back-handedly mocking both Goin and the "alleged" value derived from advanced metric analysis. Most cringeworthy.

[drjim]

Point well taken in your first paragraph, but isn't Anthony's demonstrated ignorance just symptomatic to the stated concerns we all have contained in your second paragraph?

 

I am ever-reminded when the "wizard inadvertently drew back the curtain" during a spring training interview (I think it was StarTribune). You must remember the interview with TR and Gardy?.... when unassuming Jack Goin happened upon Ryan's office for a moment, and when he left, both the GM and the manager felt most comfortable back-handedly mocking both Goin and the "alleged" value derived from advanced metric analysis. Most cringeworthy.

 

Yes on the first paragraph.

 

The second paragraph brings up a point that was much debated, and not surprisingly people had a vastly different interpretation of that article than you did.

[jokin]

Yes on the first paragraph.

 

The second paragraph brings up a point that was much debated, and not surprisingly people had a vastly different interpretation of that article than you did.

 

The article contained little that needed interpretation, that's why I included the "wizard/curtain" analogy. It seemed pretty obvious to conclude from their comments that the Twins braintrust is trying, but is still uncomfortable with advanced metrics..... and, in turn, most comfortable using, and relying more upon traditional (some would say "archaic") strategic methodology and good-old-boy, napkin-scribbled-upon, scouting reports.

[howieramone1406390264]

I don't think the Twins organization lags behind anyone or lacks for anything. The ownership practically invented money, and begged Ryan to come out of semi-retirement to right the ship. Ryan is recognized amongst his peers as one of the finest minds in all of baseball and if there was anything he needed, I'm sure Barbara Eden would show up in his office promptly.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I do think the Twins would benefit from using advanced metrics a bit more, but let's be fair here too. There's lots of garbage with this as well. I don't have too much of an issue being cautious implementing it. Unfortunately with this one, we are going to have to see how it plays out, and the metrics guy is going to have to prove his worth. I hope he's good at what he does.

[fairweather]

As much as I hate to participate in the comment section of a website that practices censorship I guess I can't resist at this moment. I remember reading a piece about Meyers prior to his shoulder problems. The piece talked about his height and the fact that he has kind of a 3/4 arm slot. Then it talked about how the Twins were trying to "tweek" his delivery to create "downward plain". They were talking specifically about shortening his stride and changing his arm slot ever so slightly. My question is could those changes have led to him straining muscles in his shoulder that were previously used less with his old mechanics? Furthermore, why do the Twins feel every pitcher has to throw a sinker? This obsession with downward plain to me is like the obsession with hitting the ball the other way. Just because that works good in many cases for marginally talented players doesn't mean you should force the supremely talented players to conform to these ridiculous idea's about the 1 right way to do things. The Twins Way lol

[Mr. Brooks]

As much as I hate to participate in the comment section of a website that practices censorship I guess I can't resist at this moment. I remember reading a piece about Meyers prior to his shoulder problems. The piece talked about his height and the fact that he has kind of a 3/4 arm slot. Then it talked about how the Twins were trying to "tweek" his delivery to create "downward plain". They were talking specifically about shortening his stride and changing his arm slot ever so slightly. My question is could those changes have led to him straining muscles in his shoulder that were previously used less with his old mechanics? Furthermore, why do the Twins feel every pitcher has to throw a sinker? This obsession with downward plain to me is like the obsession with hitting the ball the other way. Just because that works good in many cases for marginally talented players doesn't mean you should force the supremely talented players to conform to these ridiculous idea's about the 1 right way to do things. The Twins Way lol

 

He already threw a sinker before we acquired him.

[Steve Lein]

My question is could those changes have led to him straining muscles in his shoulder that were previously used less with his old mechanics?

 

I honestly believe that this is the root of many arm-problems across all of baseball.

 

If a guy has thrown the same for 5, maybe even 10 years by the time he's this high in the minors, those muscles are trained to recover properly with how they are used. His mechanics might not be the best fit for what you look for, but they're going to serve the guy better than overhauling them completely, in my opinion. When you start tweaking with those muscle actions, the whole muscle-memory (whatever the heck you would call it) resiliency isn't going to translate they way it did before.

 

Think of like a hitter. There's not a 'template' for having the perfect swing. You take the guys natural ability and motions, and work with them maximize them. Should be the same for pitchers. Something like changing an arm-slot for a pitcher is definitely messing with those natural abilities and motions.

[ashbury]

Think of like a hitter. There's not a 'template' for having the perfect swing. You take the guys natural ability and motions, and work with them maximize them. Should be the same for pitchers. Something like changing an arm-slot for a pitcher is definitely messing with those natural abilities and motions.

 

Isn't Dozier's recent uptick in hitting performance said to be due to some fairly major tinkering?

[IdahoPilgrim]

Isn't Dozier's recent uptick in hitting performance said to be due to some fairly major tinkering?

 

Good point, but I think the comparison is a little problematic, in that rarely does a change in a hitter's swing cause an injury that sidelines a person for months.

 

That said there are also cases where adjustments in pitching motion have led to increased effectiveness; there's a reason all teams have pitching coaches.

 

This whole debate reminds me of golf and the debate over the "perfect" golf swing. Sometimes you have very unconventional swings that yield good results and you should just leave it alone. Sometimes bad mechanics need to be corrected before a golfer can be truly effective. The trick is to know which case is which.

[ashbury]

Good point, but I think the comparison is a little problematic

 

That really was my point.

[Steve Lein]

Isn't Dozier's recent uptick in hitting performance said to be due to some fairly major tinkering?

 

I wouldn't call Dozier's adjustments "Major Tinkering." As Parker discussed in his article last week, it was more a function of quickening his timing mechanism, not completely overhauling his setup/hands/hip rotation/etc...

 

To quote that article:

 

"Brunansky admitted earlier in the season that his approach is about getting hitters to have a feel for the swing rather than replicate something visually. Dozier’s problem, Brunansky diagnosed, was his timing."

 

I'd call changing a guy's arm slot a pretty major adjustment as far as pitching is concerned. Changing when a guy gets hits foot down in the batters box to trigger hip rotation on his swing earlier, is not. Physically, that doesn't change anything, whereas an arm slot does for a pitcher.

[snepp]

As much as I hate to participate in the comment section of a website that practices censorship I guess I can't resist at this moment.

 

The only thing getting "censored" are policy violations. It's a very simple concept, don't violate policy, nothing gets censored.

 

If you truly hate it that much, Rubechat is always open for business, they don't censor anything.

[drjim]

Heading back to New Britain.

[jokin]

Heading back to New Britain.

 

Great news. Hopefully all goes well and we can look forward to a September call-up or AFL.

[PseudoSABR]

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 21m Alex Meyer touched 98 on Monday. Being promoted back to New Britain

 

[jokin]

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 21m Alex Meyer touched 98 on Monday. Being promoted back to New Britain

 

 

Sounds like Meyer was being a little mean on those poor, over-matched teenagers in the GCL. In this particular case, though......wow, what great news!

[kab21]

I honestly believe that this is the root of many arm-problems across all of baseball.

 

If a guy has thrown the same for 5, maybe even 10 years by the time he's this high in the minors, those muscles are trained to recover properly with how they are used. His mechanics might not be the best fit for what you look for, but they're going to serve the guy better than overhauling them completely, in my opinion. When you start tweaking with those muscle actions, the whole muscle-memory (whatever the heck you would call it) resiliency isn't going to translate they way it did before.

 

Think of like a hitter. There's not a 'template' for having the perfect swing. You take the guys natural ability and motions, and work with them maximize them. Should be the same for pitchers. Something like changing an arm-slot for a pitcher is definitely messing with those natural abilities and motions.

 

I disagree. HS and even college players simply don't log as many innings as minor and major league players. Someone with poor mechanics can avoid an injury with a lighter workload. They can also survive in HS and even college w/o throwing as many breaking balls which put more stress on the arm.

 

I'm sure that there are some cases where tinkering causes injuries but bad mechanics are usually bad mechanics. I remember watching video of the relief pitchers from last year's draft. I wasn't against converting RP'ers to starters but I couldn't understand how a couple of those guys would last with a starters workload. My arm hurt just watching them and 2 of those picks have barely pitched this season.

[Steve Lein]

I disagree. HS and even college players simply don't log as many innings as minor and major league players. Someone with poor mechanics can avoid an injury with a lighter workload. They can also survive in HS and even college w/o throwing as many breaking balls which put more stress on the arm.

 

I'm sure that there are some cases where tinkering causes injuries but bad mechanics are usually bad mechanics. I remember watching video of the relief pitchers from last year's draft. I wasn't against converting RP'ers to starters but I couldn't understand how a couple of those guys would last with a starters workload. My arm hurt just watching them and 2 of those picks have barely pitched this season.

 

I don't disagree with this stance either, but to throw a bone, there are exceptions on each side.

 

Alex Wimmers' elbow didn't blow up because of overuse when turning pro, for instance, and he also was regarded as having great mechanics when drafted.

 

And there are guys with bad mechanics who have never had major arm problems. Like Chris Sale, for example.

[kab21]

I don't disagree with this stance either, but to throw a bone, there are exceptions on each side.

 

Alex Wimmers' elbow didn't blow up because of overuse when turning pro, for instance, and he also was regarded as having great mechanics when drafted.

 

And there are guys with bad mechanics who have never had major arm problems. Like Chris Sale, for example.

 

Of course there are exceptions but the big one is simply the act of throwing a ball overhand. Going from pitching every 7 days to every 5 days and longer seasons make things even worse.

[slightlydif]

The only thing getting "censored" are policy violations. It's a very simple concept, don't violate policy, nothing gets censored. If you truly hate it that much, Rubechat is always open for business, they don't censor anything.

or not