FanGraphs: Twins Take P2C To New Heights

[Mr. Brooks]

While I would agree the Twins may have shifted more toward the "offense over defense" end of the spectrum in recent years, I think that's more due to them not having enough players who do either really well than any conscious decision. I also think corner OF defense is vastly overrated by a lot of fans recently.

 

There's also a minimum level of offense you have to bring to the table if you're going to last in the big leagues. Exactly where that level is can't always be said definitively, but if you can't hit enough, no team will stick with you very long no matter what level of defense you bring to the table. Hitters tend to be harder to find as well..."Shake any tree and a dozen gloves fall out" is as true now as when first spoken.

 

I won't defend the Hardy trade, I hated it from the day it happened and still do. Willingham isn't a good OFer, but acceptable in my book. Revere went because he was limited offensively yet was young and fast enough to return some pitching, which the Twins needed more than Revere. Gomez went for Hardy, which has nothing to do with Delmon, and in any case the Twins did just fine with Delmon in LF.

 

1)The fact that the Twins can't find enough who do either, according to you, should be quite the indictment on the front office, if we consider your later statement (Shake any tree and a dozen gloves fall out) to be true.

You can't give the Twins a pass for their defense by claiming they can't find anyone who is good defensively, if you are then going to claim that they literally grow on trees.

 

I stand by my statement, the Twins either don't place much value on defense, or they have a terrible understanding of what good defense is.

 

2) The Rays would disagree with your second paragraph. They have been consistently winning for years with outstanding defense, and not much of an offense. True, they have good pitching, but they have also made plenty of mediocre pitchers look pretty good with their good defense.

 

3) If Willingham is acceptable by your standards, I'd like to hear an example of a corner OF'er whose defense is unacceptable. Willingham might possibly be THE worst defensive OF'er I've ever watched, and that includes Delmon Young.

 

4) I don't have a problem trading Revere if you are going to get something (better) back for him. Terry Ryan traded him for one pitcher whose NL numbers were fluky and unsustainable (Worley), and a pitching prospect who has a high ceiling but is very unlikely to ever reach it.

BTW, that is not hindsight. That was my opinion from day 1, one that I took a ton of heat for coming into the season.

 

Yes Revere is limited offensively, but can hit for average and steal a ton of bases, and is an elite defensive CF'er. I'm okay trading him if you get an offer you can't refuse, but a prospect like May and a fringe #5 starter/AAA filler is a package you could always get 3 or 4 years down the road, after we've gotten a ton of value from Revere's cheap years.

I would have held out for a better offer.

[ashbury]

defensive metrics are subjective.

 

I'm not sure what this means. Metrics measure something. The subjective part is agreeing on what a measurement means, and its relative value to other metrics?

[Kwak]

The Twins' proble isn't defense in general and definately not OF defense. Gosh sakes, the SUX made 3 errors today and won easily. The Twins are very inconsistent hitters (chicken or feathers) and their pitching is only slightly better than an Iron Mike.

[Mr. Brooks]

The Twins' proble isn't defense in general and definately not OF defense. Gosh sakes, the SUX made 3 errors today and won easily. The Twins are very inconsistent hitters (chicken or feathers) and their pitching is only slightly better than an Iron Mike.

 

1) There is more to defense than just "errors'. That is merely one element of defense. You can't make an error on a ball that you don't have the range to get to.

 

2) When you are playing a team that can't hit to save their life with RISP, you are not going to be made to pay for those errors.

You commit 3 errors against a decent hitting team, you are going to lose most of the time.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure what this means. Metrics measure something. The subjective part is agreeing on what a measurement means, and its relative value to other metrics?

 

Depends on the metric but there is still a subjectivity in that BIS uses human scorers. It isn't purely statistical, there is still a considerable degree to which it contains interpretation, not just data.

[Guest USAFChief]

I would add there is a great deal of subjectivity in what happens to the data after the humans record it. Because one human has determined that X = Y runs, which then = Z wins, does not = truth or reality.