Jose Abreu defects

[darin617]

Calvin was tighter with money than the Pohlads ever could be,

 

Calvin would be very proud how these Pohlad boys are keeping all the money and not trying to field an average team. Do we need to lose 90+ games for another 3 years before they decide to do something.

[nicksaviking]

Because he's going to have other offers from warmer climate teams who more importantly are contending teams and not in rebuilding mode like the Twins.

 

Like those contending, warm weather Chicago Cubs who seem to be hot on the trail of every international player this year?

 

About Griffith, let's be honest, he likely only scouted Latin players with an eye on finding cheap labor to serve his Lion's Club dinners. He was a despicable human being, even more so than Carl Pohlad.

 

The Telegraph - Google News Archive Search

[AlwaysinModeration]

I don't doubt that Abreu will probably sign wherever the highest contract appears. The chance of this being Minnesota seems almost certainly less than 1%. Would really love to be surprised, as this would only cost money, but my hopes are extremely low.

[shs_59]

A couple months ago....I figured a 4yr 12 million dollar deal (3 milll a yr) + a 3.5 Million dollar signing bonus would be enough to get him.

 

Thats obviously not the case if you can get him even near that type of deal. THE tWINS and TR need to do it!

 

otherwise Guerrero would be ok. I'd be fine with him ....

[old nurse]

I will make this very simple for you and anyone else to prove: can you please cite past defectors or IFA that have turned down more lucrative deals because of climate or win/loss records? Since so many of you toss this counter-intuitive notion around at nearly every turn....surely this is a host of examples...no?

 

I would just adore hearing them. I mean, how on Earth did Sano sign here? We dupe him about Minnesota? Construct a fake set on Hawaii with a bunch of dudes saying "you betcha!"? Last I checked....we offered the most money.

Hisashi Iwakuma turned down Oakland. The next year he signed with Seattle for less money. True he made up for it with the next contract, but there were no guarentee it would work.

Generaly you can't prove your "intuitive" hypothesis is correct either. You don't have the details.

[TheLeviathan]

Hisashi Iwakuma turned down Oakland. The next year he signed with Seattle for less money. True he made up for it with the next contract, but there were no guarentee it would work.

Generaly you can't prove your "intuitive" hypothesis is correct either. You don't have the details.

 

So he turned down a contract in hopes of making more money in the future. And he's already made more than what Oakland had on the table plus what he made in Japan when he returned. If that's the best you got...I'm wondering how so many people believe this notion.

 

To your second point, there are two ways to approach that. 1) If we don't have the details to know why a player is or is not signing a deal - then every claim here about climate is equally as dubious. So why defend them?

 

Or

 

2) If we can use reasonable suspicions about why players make the decisions they do - the VAST majority of contracts signed are because that was the most money offered to them. From Grienke to Pujols to Jose Reyes to Hamilton and on and on for as long as free agency has existed. Rarely does a player make a significant, long-term commitment for reasons other than the money on the table. Or, at least, without it being the primary motivation. Secondary motivations only come into play when the offers are substantially similar.

[AlwaysinModeration]

The Twins already signed him!

Having spotted the Twins Jose Abreu in a GCL box score last night, I get this now. No wonder the name sounded familiar.

 

Anyhow, what is the old saying? You can never have enough Jose Abreu?

[old nurse]

So he turned down a contract in hopes of making more money in the future. And he's already made more than what Oakland had on the table plus what he made in Japan when he returned. If that's the best you got...I'm wondering how so many people believe this notion.

 

To your second point, there are two ways to approach that. 1) If we don't have the details to know why a player is or is not signing a deal - then every claim here about climate is equally as dubious. So why defend them?

 

Or

 

2) If we can use reasonable suspicions about why players make the decisions they do - the VAST majority of contracts signed are because that was the most money offered to them. From Grienke to Pujols to Jose Reyes to Hamilton and on and on for as long as free agency has existed. Rarely does a player make a significant, long-term commitment for reasons other than the money on the table. Or, at least, without it being the primary motivation. Secondary motivations only come into play when the offers are substantially similar.

 

Pujols had a larger offer from Miami. Maybe the VAST majority of contracts are the largest ones offered. I don't know. I don't have access to that information. I am glad you do.I am glad you have access to the insights of a players reasoning why they sign where they do. You can intellectualize all you want, but you still only have speculation. It is not in the player's interest to say they signed somewhere else for less. Would a team let out that they had a higher bid and were rejected and give specifics? (Of course you are going to say yes). That is not done. Believing that it is only about the money allows you an excuse to say why a player did not come here.Greinke may have said that he went to the team that offered him the most money, but he did not say that all were allowed to bid on his services. If it is only about the money, why are there no trade clauses negotiated into the free agent contract?

You asked for a player that signed for less than other teams offered in the IFA market. I gave you one. It met the criteria.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I am not sure I believe he has signed. If Thrylos broke the story then I would feel a little better about this statement.

 

Sarcasm... We have a kid in rookie ball with the same name.

[Guest USAFChief]

Pujols had a larger offer from Miami. Maybe the VAST majority of contracts are the largest ones offered. I don't know. I don't have access to that information. I am glad you do.I am glad you have access to the insights of a players reasoning why they sign where they do. You can intellectualize all you want, but you still only have speculation. It is not in the player's interest to say they signed somewhere else for less. Would a team let out that they had a higher bid and were rejected and give specifics? (Of course you are going to say yes). That is not done. ​Believing that it is only about the money allows you an excuse to say why a player did not come here.Greinke may have said that he went to the team that offered him the most money, but he did not say that all were allowed to bid on his services. If it is only about the money, why are there no trade clauses negotiated into the free agent contract?

You asked for a player that signed for less than other teams offered in the IFA market. I gave you one. It met the criteria.

If "that is not done" how do you know Pujols had a larger offer?

[Oldgoat_MN]

The bidding for Cliff Lee was made pretty public by his agent.

 

IIRC he had higher offers from both the Rangers and the Yankees before signing with Philly.

 

It happens, especially when the player is a little older.

[snepp]

If "that is not done" how do you know Pujols had a larger offer?

 

Easy there Chief, some logic only works one way.

[Mike Sixel]

Bah, if they offer a huge amount of money, he'll come here. I'd guess the Cubs will continue to dominate the season, wtih the best GM in baseball, and will sign him.

[70charger]

Do we really need to do this again? This is how threads die and people end up on blocked lists.

[drjim]

Bah, if they offer a huge amount of money, he'll come here. I'd guess the Cubs will continue to dominate the season, wtih the best GM in baseball, and will sign him.

 

I would be a little surprised. Abreu has no position flexibility and they just locked up a young 1b. There is definitely an opening for the Twins.

[Mike Sixel]

Good point, jim. I forgot about that....

[cmathewson]

Bah, if they offer a huge amount of money, he'll come here. I'd guess the Cubs will continue to dominate the season, wtih the best GM in baseball, and will sign him.

 

This is hard for me to understand. The Cubs have the best GM in baseball but had a worse record than the Twins last year and have a worse record than the Twins this year, all the while spending considerably more than the Twins in both years. Since the Twins are not even a good team, let alone the best, the only way I can understand this is if it's intended as sarcasm. Is that your intent?

[snepp]

This is hard for me to understand. The Cubs have the best GM in baseball but had a worse record than the Twins last year and have a worse record than the Twins this year, all the while spending considerably more than the Twins in both years. Since the Twins are not even a good team, let alone the best, the only way I can understand this is if it's intended as sarcasm. Is that your intent?

 

He hasn't even been there two years yet.

 

 

Or was this intended as sarcasm?

[TheLeviathan]

You asked for a player that signed for less than other teams offered in the IFA market. I gave you one. It met the criteria.

 

Um, you mean Iwakuma? The guy who went back to Japan because he was low balled? Are you suggesting Iwakuma is evidence of a guy who turned down money due to climate? Because the reports that came up on google says he refused Oakland due to low contract offers, saying that their offer indicated they "didnt really want me".

 

So you met no such criteria.

 

the argument from ignorance is no defense here. I believe the Twins have an opportunity here, if the counter argument is tht he'd never come here due to climate than tht claim too falls under ignorance. But sensible people understand that the primary motivation of FAs is to get paid, especially those escaping impoverished countries with a limited time frame to cash in. I'm relying on the simplest motivation, I'm asking those tht claim all IFA prize climate and racial diversity over money to show me when this has ever happened.

 

One would think with the number of guys tossing that around tht there would be some easy examples. I must've missed them, please enlighten me of a few examples of this trend. Otherwise, lets be done with it as a baseless claim and hope the Twins make a very competitive offer.

[TheLeviathan]

The bidding for Cliff Lee was made pretty public by his agent.

 

IIRC he had higher offers from both the Rangers and the Yankees before signing with Philly.

 

It happens, especially when the player is a little older.

 

Cliff Lee is an excellent example. He stayed in Philly for medical/family reasons and it was so surprising that he refused better offers that it made news.

 

things that happen routinely don't make the news, it's a classic case of the exception proving the rule.

[drjim]

Cliff Lee is an excellent example. He stayed in Philly for medical/family reasons and it was so surprising that he refused better offers that it made news.

 

things that happen routinely don't make the news, it's a classic case of the exception proving the rule.

 

He also took the highest AAV, just not the most total money.

[TheLeviathan]

He also took the highest AAV, just not the most total money.

 

Right so even in the most prominent "not all about the money" case.....it was still sorta about the money. I don't know why this is even controversial as a claim.

[ThePuck]

Right so even in the most prominent "not all about the money" case.....it was still sorta about the money. I don't know why this is even controversial as a claim.

 

When I first got to this site, I was slammed for suggesting that money was one of many factors for a player when picking a team. I didn't even say it was the most important factor, just one of the factors for some players. BAM, not possible was is what I was told over and over. So, you know, go figure...

[TheLeviathan]

When I first got to this site, I was slammed for suggesting that money was one of many factors for a player when picking a team. I didn't even say it was the most important factor, just one of the factors for some players. BAM, not possible was is what I was told over and over. So, you know, go figure...

 

the real amusing part is that the same people who deny money is a deciding factor rail against signing FAs because you will have to pay them as much or more than other teams to sign them....all but admitting money ultimately decides things just about every time.

[drjim]

Right so even in the most prominent "not all about the money" case.....it was still sorta about the money. I don't know why this is even controversial as a claim.

 

It shouldn't be that controversial. I do think there are obviously other factors and the money has to be significantly higher in some cases. But not this one.

[old nurse]

When I first got to this site, I was slammed for suggesting that money was one of many factors for a player when picking a team. I didn't even say it was the most important factor, just one of the factors for some players. BAM, not possible was is what I was told over and over. So, you know, go figure...

 

And, you know, someone says that there are more factors than money and BAM, not possible.

[ThePuck]

You are a hero and a martyr and yet you manage to pick yourself up and keep posting.

 

I don't think I'm any of that...I'm saying that's how far the ridiculous argument that money isn't at least one of the larger considerations has gone in here....to the point where someone wants to defend the lack of spending so much that they say money isn't a factor at all.

 

BTW, that was an unnecessary personal attack...just sayin'.

[ThePuck]

And, you know, someone says that there are more factors than money and BAM, not possible.

 

Who said that? Who has said that there aren't other factors? I think some have said they believe money is the main factor, but who has said money is the only factor for every player?

[TheLeviathan]

It shouldn't be that controversial. I do think there are obviously other factors and the money has to be significantly higher in some cases. But not this one.

 

I think "some" is pushing it. Money decides things unless deals re substantially similar in total. And guys who take one year lower total deals tend to do it for playing time and a larger future payout. It's the nature of FA...it's about cashing in.

 

so if the Twins want to be competitive on this guy their offer needs to meet or exceed rival offers....simple as that.

[drjim]

I think "some" is pushing it. Money decides things unless deals re substantially similar in total. And guys who take one year lower total deals tend to do it for playing time and a larger future payout. It's the nature of FA...it's about cashing in.

 

so if the Twins want to be competitive on this guy their offer needs to meet or exceed rival offers....simple as that.

 

Two issues would be team situation/how competitive they are and also opportunity for the player.