Twins do not sign much internationally

[Mike Sixel]

So, they had the 4th most money, and signed one top 30 international free agent.....well, number 29 is still there. I do not understand this franchise. Can they really claim to be doing everything they can to add talent? Note.....I am going by BA rankings. According to some national writers, they also refused to eat any of Morneau's contract. I am truly baffled.

[CGNikolic]

Baffled is a good word for this scenario. I like TR and want to give him the benefit of the doubt.. But doing nothing is not going to help this organization.

[raindog]

I can't even begin to understand it. They passed on a great chance to add talent.

[Smcginnity]

I'm not baffled. I'm pissed. Not only do they not use their international money, but, they also didn't eat any of Morneau's salary to get a decent prospect in return. Now, they will lose him for nothing. Next year, they lose the contracts of Pelfrey, Morneau, Blackburn, and Carrol. That's a significant amount of money that they SHOULD be spending somehow. Do I think they can land a top FA? No. But, they should try and add more international money somehow and actually SPEND IT next year. Ugh. I'm sick of Terry Ryan and the love he gets. In my opinion, he is overrated.

[Smcginnity]

Also, with the Free Agents pitchers available, the cost for them will be ridiculous (even Josh Johnson). So, I say just roll with the youngsters and Correia (reluctantly). Just do Deduno, Gibson, Correia, Hendricks, and Albers. The FA Market is just as good as what we have (of what we can realistically get). Hope that we can have Meyer, May, Rogers, Dean, Darnell, and others sub in if the others fail. We are at a point where there is NO point to bring in these scrub pitchers anymore. Just a joke.

[Larsbars08]

I feel like a lot of the signings aren't really publicized. Also, these signings happen all year after the deadline. I'll be honest, I don't remember hearing about guys like Lewis Thorpe and Felix Jorge signing. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think either of those guys were anywhere near BA's top 30 international free agents. Now I would say that they are probably top 20 prospects in the system, and definitely some of the more exciting pitching prospects. Not to say that they weren't mentioned, but just because we aren't hearing about it doesn't mean nothing is happening.

 

If by next year, the Twins haven't used a large chunk of the international signing bonus allotment, then I will be angry. I think you have to give it time. Obviously there were circumstances, but we didn't sign Sano until September. Guys with upside don't always sign immediately after the beginning of international free agency.

[Oxtung]

I don't get as frustrated about international signings (unless we don't spend the money) because BA et al can't scout internationally as well as they do for the draft. So there are going to be players that slip through their net that are actually pretty good. As long as Ryan spends the money and his some of his players turn out to have upside I'm OK. As Lars said Thorpe is looking good right now. Jorge, Landa, Rosario and Romero were signed by Smith though. We'll have to wait and see when these guys get to A-ball to have a better handle on them.

[raindog]

Good points by the last two posters. There is still time left to spend the money. I sure hope they do.

[shs_59]

So, they had the 4th most money, and signed one top 30 international free agent.....well, number 29 is still there. I do not understand this franchise. Can they really claim to be doing everything they can to add talent? Note.....I am going by BA rankings. According to some national writers, they also refused to eat any of Morneau's contract. I am truly baffled.

 

At this point, I'm really starting to think Morneau is in the 2014 plans!

 

Yes i said it, let him hit his way to earning a 2014 contract at say, ..........8 or 9 million.

[kab21]

I think we need to wait until the signing period is actually over and we know how much money they have spent and who they have actually signed. It's also important to remember that in int'l FA it's usually better to have quantity rather than only a couple of top signees.

 

I can understand the initial disappointment though.

[Thegrin]

I doubt anybody here has personally seen any of the international free agents. We don't know what has been offered for whom. This thread is a lot of hot air based on a lack of information.

We may have some signings between now and Spring Training 2014.

[old nurse]

I'm not baffled. I'm pissed. Not only do they not use their international money, but, they also didn't eat any of Morneau's salary to get a decent prospect in return. Now, they will lose him for nothing. Next year, they lose the contracts of Pelfrey, Morneau, Blackburn, and Carrol. That's a significant amount of money that they SHOULD be spending somehow. Do I think they can land a top FA? No. But, they should try and add more international money somehow and actually SPEND IT next year. Ugh. I'm sick of Terry Ryan and the love he gets. In my opinion, he is overrated.

 

Not to be nitpicky but you are making a huge assumption that what was offered was a decent prospect.

[diehardtwinsfan]

For one, they've spent about 3M from what I last read. Second, it was also recently noted that they were going to be announcing one or two more shortly. Third, unlike US college/HS rankings, BA rankings are much more suspect. It is quite possible I might add to get good talent internationally for very cheap. Lewis Thorp was 500k. If I remember right, Arcia was 80k.

[Major League Ready]

Not to be nitpicky but you are making a huge assumption that what was offered was a decent prospect.

 

It is also a leap to presume the reports were correct they would not eat any of Morneau's contract. Reporters jump to conclusions too. Maybe they would not eat any contract for a particular mediocre prospects that was offered. Perhaps the FO was posturing for a better propects who they were willing to eat salary to acquire.

 

As others have stated it is also way too soon to judge their international signings. Why would anyone assume they are not going to spend the money? Have the other teams spent all of their allotment in the first 6 weeks any other year? Maybe to more prudent question to ask is if it makes sense to drop most of their $4M pool on a couple of top 30 guys or spread it out. We are talking about 16 year old kids in a lot of cases.

[Pitz]

For one, they've spent about 3M from what I last read. Second, it was also recently noted that they were going to be announcing one or two more shortly. Third, unlike US college/HS rankings, BA rankings are much more suspect. It is quite possible I might add to get good talent internationally for very cheap. Lewis Thorp was 500k. If I remember right, Arcia was 80k.

 

Just to add to this, Oscar Taveras and Gregory Polanco are a couple of other very highly touted prospects who did not receive huge signing bonuses. As long as the Twins use all of their allotted pool, I won't complain. Signing/ranking 16 year olds is much more of a crapshoot than even the draft. While it would be great to see them sign a few more of the highly ranked guys, I'm ok with using the money to sign a large quantity of guys.

If they don't use their allotment, then I will be very frustrated.

[TheLeviathan]

Why would anyone assume they are not going to spend the money?

 

Lets not pretend there aren't reasons. Points like this help erupt another thread of payroll talk - there are PLENTY of valid reasons for tht assumption. Whether it turns out to be true or not remains to be seen.

[IdahoPilgrim]

Lets not pretend there aren't reasons. Points like this help erupt another thread of payroll talk - there are PLENTY of valid reasons for tht assumption. Whether it turns out to be true or not remains to be seen.

 

I would respectfully suggest that if another payroll/front office strategy "debate" breaks out here it won't be because of the post to which you responded. The topic of the original post, with the additional comment on Morneau's contract, do that just fine on their own.

[drjim]

I'll also echo a couple of other posters in that the only way I get upset on international spending is if they don't use the entire budget that was given them. They still have over 10 months to spend the approximately $1 mil they have left.

[Mike Sixel]

As for scouting, we can only go with the info we have.....I admitted that in the post.

 

Not everyone needs to feel the same, but I'd prefer they spend money on the top guys. Maybe I am wrong on that, maybe signing a bunch of guys for less money is a better strategy.

 

But clearly other teams that are spending money don't agree. So it's not like I'm some lunatic coming from nowhere. I have no issue with people disagreeing, frankly. I was just making an observation that it appears they are not going to be using that money on the top players this year, despite having an advantage over other teams. Maybe I should have typed it that way instead, to be more clear on my point.

[TheLeviathan]

I would respectfully suggest that if another payroll/front office strategy "debate" breaks out here it won't be because of the post to which you responded. The topic of the original post, with the additional comment on Morneau's contract, do that just fine on their own.

 

If those statements aren't contradicted by someone there won't be a debate. One can remain an optimist without denying the very real reasons supplying the frustrations even if they may be mistaken in this instance.

[PseudoSABR]

There simply is too much unknown about both the players and the process to get worked about this. Don't confuse headlines with results, guys.

[Oxtung]

As for scouting, we can only go with the info we have.....I admitted that in the post.

 

Not everyone needs to feel the same, but I'd prefer they spend money on the top guys. Maybe I am wrong on that, maybe signing a bunch of guys for less money is a better strategy.

 

But clearly other teams that are spending money don't agree. So it's not like I'm some lunatic coming from nowhere. I have no issue with people disagreeing, frankly. I was just making an observation that it appears they are not going to be using that money on the top players this year, despite having an advantage over other teams. Maybe I should have typed it that way instead, to be more clear on my point.

 

You're still making the assumption that BA knows who those top guys are. IMO when it comes to the international market that isn't a given.

[Mike Sixel]

What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

[drjim]

What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

 

I would still argue that the key thing to analyze is whether they spend their allotment or not. BA will even acknowledge themselves that their rankings don't correlate well with how bonuses are paid out.

[old nurse]

At this point wouldn't it be better to scout the players a little more and wait until the last minute to sign some players? There should be a lot more season to assess talent.

[Oxtung]

What other scouting should we look at, or is this topic one we should just not discuss.?

 

I think it is fair to discuss the scouting. I would add in other lists like Sanchez's over at MLB.com. However, IMO these lists shouldn't be taken as gospel. The international market seems to be much more nebulous than the rule 4 draft. As others have pointed out many of today's top international prospects didn't receive big bonuses.

 

I don't disagree with your assessment that the Twins should be going after some of the top players but your only reference point seems to be that BA list which is not infallible. I would suggest it would be more beneficial to have this discussion several years from now when we see just who was signed out of the international market. If all that the Twins have coming up are utility infielders and soft tossing-pitch-to-contact players you will have a stronger point.

[Jim H]

The real question Mike, is not whether you should pay attention to BA's scouting reports, it is more why are you are assuming the Twins have screwed up? This clearly one of those areas where it will take years before anyone will be able to evaluate the signing made this year. Plus, this year's signing aren't completed yet. On top of that, clearly BA's list should be taken with a grain of salt. Given all that, just why do you jump in with a post lacking in very many specifics, and claim the Twins have screwed up?

 

 

It is fine to point out things where you believe the Twins have screwed up. But when you do this on a regular basis, as you seem to, I would prefer that it isn't just the usual whining, but something specific that you can point to. I realize this kind of information is not easy to come by and is still more of an opinion than a fact. Unfortunately too much of the criticism of the Twins(not neccesarily by you) is this kind of general bitching. It isn't specific and thus can't easily be refuted, but at the same time it provides no new information and is largely the same general theme "the Twins have money and need to spend more of it".

 

If you can point at specific international player the Twins should of targeted, I would be happy to read about that. If there is some information you have that shows specifically how the Twins have come up short in scouting or some other part of the international scene, I would be interested. I think though that the new rules have been put into place to level the field. I wouldn't be surprised if the aim is to spread the top "prospects" rather evenly among all thirty major league teams with the extra money to used to sign the next tier. Certainly some teams will try to circumvent those rules.

 

Largely, I agree with those posters who are suggesting that it is too early to complain about how the Twins handle the signing of international players.

[Larsbars08]

With the international signings I feel like the relationships that team scouts have with the players and there trainers/parents/handlers are just as important as the actual money. I also think that teams are more dependent on the opinion of a limited amount of scouts. One thing I've liked about the Twins is that they've been willing to look outside of the DR. We have guys from Germany, Australia, and Taiwan.

[Mike Sixel]

Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

 

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

 

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

 

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

[Oxtung]

Sure, I already said I would target less of them, and more of the top guys. You want a list of specific players, I'd say anyone on the top 30 across whatever scouting sites you want. You and I probably know less about them than those sites, or the Twins, so I'm using what resources I have.

 

Of course we can't actually judge what happened. But judging in hindsight is worthless, frankly. Anyone can go back and say, they should have done this or that. This entire board is speculating on when to call up a player, or what player to trade, or who to sign. No one is criticizing those posters for waiting 3 years before discussing the topic.

 

I've been pretty clear on who I want them to sign, I want them to sign more of the top players. Pick any site you can find on the internet, and see how they did against that. I have also acknowledged that it is reasonable to have the other strategy, sign a lot of guys like lottery tickets and see who sticks.

 

As for waiting until the signing period is done to discuss, does that mean we should not discuss who they sign in FA next year, or who they trade for, or who they promote or not, until the end of the year?

 

First let me say that I am not trying to pile on here Mike. I appreciate your point of view on many subjects. Often times we end up on the same side of the arguments.

 

Two points. First, I think there is much more information available for the Rule 4 draft, Rule 5 draft and the FA period (with a possible exception of international FA's) than for the international signing period. Do you agree with this?

 

Second, I don't think there is anything wrong with discussing the Twins approach to international signings during the process as long as we realize it is still an on going process. There is still time for the Twins to make a splash.

 

Here is a question. You seem to want the Twins to sign a high upside player. What if the Twins use the remainder of their money, I don't know how much they have left but let's just say $750k, to sign a player not on the BA list. Clearly that would be a player the Twins think has a chance to be very good. Would you be satisfied with that?