I See that Leyland is at it Again

[powrwrap]

Say what you want about Gardy's managing skills, but just be thankful that you aren't a fan of the Tigers or White Sox. Tonight, leading 2-0, Jim Leyland decided to let Verlander pitch the ninth inning. Verlander was approaching 100 pitches. Verlander gave up two singles, walked a guy, and then uncorked a wild pitch allowing a run to score. With Longoria coming up, and right after throwing 100 pitches, you gotta remove Verlander, right? Not if you're Leyland. Longoria singled to tie the score. NOW he takes Verlander out of the game. This practice of Leyland to leave Verlander in games after he's pitched 100, 110, 115, even 120 pitches is quite common. Yes, it worked out really well last year but should a manager be having his ace, a guy that's in the middle of a 5 year, $20M a year contract, regularly throw 110-120 pitches?

 

As for the White Sox, Ozzie Guillen was a loudmouthed, incompetent drunk. Twins fan should mourn his moving to the National League. But, oh well, the Sox have got Robin Ventura at the helm, a guy that has no previous experience as a coach or a manager.

[TheLink]

Have no problem with Leyland use of Verlaner. You ever think maybe Verlander wants to finish it out?

[Top Gun]

Verley is a horse.

[ChuckkJay]

You ever think maybe the manager should override his pitcher's desire to get a CG?

[one_eyed_jack]

Leyland is an overrated manager. It's funny, I thought the Twins faithful were hard on Gardy, but man, go read the comments on the Detroit Free Press some time. The Gardy-bashing in the Strib comments is mild by comparison. He has had some bad years. The last-place finish despite big acquisitions and high expectations in 2008. The colossal choke in 2009.

 

Guillen was able to ride his success of 2005 for too long. His teams chronically underachieved after that.

 

There are things you can criticize Gardy for, but I take him over either of those 2.

[deanlambrecht]

He was nowhere near 100 pitches. Verlander had thrown 81 pitches and had a 1 hitter going when he came in for the 9th. See: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2012_04_11_tbamlb_detmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=tb

 

There's no way he stays on the bench. No manager in baseball would do that to any starter, let alone Verlander.

 

If you want to prove that Leyland isn't a good manager, this won't do...

[Seth Stohs]

Yeah, I have no problem with Leyland going with Verlander there... maybe he could have taken him out a little sooner, but he's arguably the best pitcher in baseball, even at 100-110 pitches, so if he takes him out and Valverde blows it, then he's dumb for taking Verlander out.

 

Leyland's teams have consistently choked, and I do think that he often over-rides Verlander, but today wasn't a case for that.

 

And, as for Ventura... I really like that they went with a guy with no managerial experience. I get tired of retreads, and Ventura's been around the game for a long time. He knows what to do.

[Guest USAFChief]

Yes, it worked out really well last year but should a manager be having his ace, a guy that's in the middle of a 5 year, $20M a year contract, regularly throw 110-120 pitches?

 

 

Yes.

[VodkaDave]

Whenever you have the opp to take the ball out of the reigning MVP's hand you have to do it. The 9th inning in 2-0 games are for closers, everybody knows that.

[powrwrap]

  deanlambrecht said:

He was nowhere near 100 pitches. Verlander had thrown 81 pitches and had a 1 hitter going when he came in for the 9th. See: http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/gameday/index.jsp?gid=2012_04_11_tbamlb_detmlb_1&mode=recap_away&c_id=tb

 

There's no way he stays on the bench. No manager in baseball would do that to any starter, let alone Verlander.

 

 

You're right, he wasn't near 100 pitches when he started the inning. I would have let him start the inning. But after Verlander does this: single, strikeout, single, wild pitch (which was his 4th ball in a row he threw to Pena), he is at 100 pitches. Up comes Longoria. This is where you pull Verlander. This is where the mistake was made. I guess I should have been clearer in my OP.

[Gernzy]

This is always a tough call for a manager. If you leave your starter in and he bombs, its your fault for leaving him in too long. If you pull the starter and the bullpen blows it, then its your fault for going to the pen. It's a no win situation if you lose the game.

[Loosey]

  powrwrap said:

You're right, he wasn't near 100 pitches when he started the inning. I would have let him start the inning. But after Verlander does this: single, strikeout, single, wild pitch (which was his 4th ball in a row he threw to Pena), he is at 100 pitches. Up comes Longoria. This is where you pull Verlander. This is where the mistake was made. I guess I should have been clearer in my OP.

powrwrap, I think you've watched too much Twins baseball. The Twins are nazi's about pitch count and use it as the holy grail for when to pull a pitcher. In my opinion it is an over rated stat. 100 is a nice round # and has become the go to number for when to a pitcher has thrown too many pitches. Who is to say that 117 isn't the average number where a pitcher loses his stuff and tires, maybe it's 85. What I'm trying to say is that each pitcher is different and Verlander on pitch 101 is better than most pitchers on pitch #15. No problem with letting your workhorse ace finish what he started.

[powrwrap]

  Loosey said:

powrwrap, I think you've watched too much Twins baseball. The Twins are nazi's about pitch count and use it as the holy grail for when to pull a pitcher. In my opinion it is an over rated stat. 100 is a nice round # and has become the go to number for when to a pitcher has thrown too many pitches. Who is to say that 117 isn't the average number where a pitcher loses his stuff and tires, maybe it's 85. What I'm trying to say is that each pitcher is different and Verlander on pitch 101 is better than most pitchers on pitch #15. No problem with letting your workhorse ace finish what he started.

I know Verlander is a beast. I'm not a 100 pitch count fanatic. But consider the sequence last night, score is 2-0: Single, strikeout, single, walk with wild pitch allowing run to score. These are signs that your pitcher is running out of gas and now the best hitter on the Rays is coming up to bat. Pull him.

 

Go back and look at some box scores from last year and check out Verlander's pitch counts. I just looked at one game, September 24th, and Leyland had him throw 120 pitches. This is 10 days before going into the playoffs. What's the point? The Tigers are paying him $20M a year. Should he be throwing 120 pitches in a meaningless game?

[powrwrap]

  Gernzy said:

This is always a tough call for a manager. If you leave your starter in and he bombs, its your fault for leaving him in too long. If you pull the starter and the bullpen blows it, then its your fault for going to the pen. It's a no win situation if you lose the game.

Generally speaking, yes, but in this situation, no. After your starter has allowed two hits, threw a wild pitch and allowed a run, has 100 pitches thrown, and the best hitter on the other team is coming up, it's a no-brainer.

[VodkaDave]

Verlander is the rare(anymore) kind of pitchers who can throw 120+ pitches regularly and be just fine.

His velocity/effectiveness loss between pitch 1 and 120 is extremely minimal and the guy doesn't have any arm problems, thus he is able to go way over 100 pitches.

 

Just an FYI for you for consideration: Not all pitchers are created equal.

[James]

If he were actually at 100 pitches before the 9th, things may have been different. I would have been tempted to pull him then only because it was only April 11th and I can only assume that it wasn't particularly warm. But, at only 81 pitches and a 1-hitter going, I would have let him pitch too.

[powrwrap]

  VodkaDave said:

Verlander is the rare(anymore) kind of pitchers who can throw 120+ pitches regularly and be just fine.

His velocity/effectiveness loss between pitch 1 and 120 is extremely minimal and the guy doesn't have any arm problems, thus he is able to go way over 100 pitches.

 

Just an FYI for you for consideration: Not all pitchers are created equal.

I understand all of this. But don't you pull him after he's given up a two hits, given up a run, walk a guy on four straight balls including a wild pitch, the game now tied and the best hitter on the team coming to bat?

 

Also, you think it's OK to let a $20M a year investment throw 120 pitches in a meaningless game at the end of the season? What objective does that serve?