Article: Twins Season Takes Another Dismal Turn

[drjim]

McClouth is more than capable of playing CF. He has over 500 games played there. Orioles have Jones in CF, which is why he doesn't play CF.

 

That was a couple years ago and he was pretty poor at it then.

 

But yes he is a functional mlb player so he could hypothetically do it.

[ThePuck]

Cardinals have had one losing record in the 2000s. In the 2000s, they've won two World Series, gone to three World Series, have advanced to the NLCS seven times and been to the playoffs nine times...probably make that ten by the time this season is over.

[drjim]

Cardinals have had one losing record in the 2000s. In the 2000s, they've won two World Series, gone to three World Series, have advanced to the NLCS seven times and been to the playoffs nine times...probably make that ten by the time this season is over.

Cardinals are a great franchise.

[ThePuck]

That was a couple years ago and he was pretty poor at it then.

 

But yes he is a functional mlb player so he could hypothetically do it.

 

Yes, a couple years ago, because when he was in Pitt last year, they had the all star, gold glove, silver slugging, MVP candidate roaming CF.

 

Downplay him all you want, but you asked a question and it was answered.

 

Personally I wasn't pushing for him, so I don't care one way or another, but it's funny being right is so important to you.

[drjim]

S - Twins had one losing record in a decade. I would take on the Yankees, Boston and St. Louis over them on that timeframe.

 

If you don't see that as a great run you are set up for a lifetime of baseball disappointment.

[big dog]

The Cards also signed some legit free agents.....no, they have guys drafted since the slotting system that are rated highly, and some contributing at the MLB already. They are just good at drafting and developing, really good.

 

Carlos Beltran, Rafael Furcal, Randy Choate are current free-agent signings. They also traded for Matt Holiday and Jake Westbrook and then re-signed them as free agents. I believe Kyle Lohse was a free agent. They are good at drafting and developing, but they've also done a good job of signing free agents, whether their own or someone else's.

[drjim]

Yes, a couple years ago, because when he was in Pitt last year, they had the all star, gold glove, silver slugging, MVP candidate roaming CF.

 

Downplay him all you want, but you asked a question and it was answered.

 

Personally I wasn't pushing for him, so I don't care one way or another, but it's funny being right is so important to you.

 

I don't think he was an option because he isn't a cf. Jokin and I had discussed this before.

[ThePuck]

http://cdn2.sbnation.com/imported_assets/1167769/jags.gif

 

IMO, our standards of great are very much lower than many a team's fanbase. Winning a ALMOST always weak division (not every year for those pointing at 2006), then getting smacked around in the playoffs over and over doesn't meet 'great' standards for me. 12 straight playoff losses, and 5 straight LDS playoff losses sure doesn't either.

 

It definitely could have been worse, there's no doubt about that. I'm sure some teams would have loved that kind of decade, but I'm not sure it can really be called great.

[Winston Smith]

The Twins suck right now but they did just come off a great decade.

 

A great decade would include more than one series win, 11 years ago, and more than a 0-12 current playoff record. But if you set the bar at winning the central when it sucks I guess it was great.

[drjim]

A great decade would include more than one series win, 11 years ago, and more than a 0-12 current playoff record. But if you set the bar at winning the central when it sucks I guess it was great.

 

I am probably in the minority but I think performance over a 162 game season matters much more and is more reflective than the playoffs.

[drjim]

I'll concede I should have said "really good" instead of "great".

[S.]

Cosigned Puck's response. I'm sorry, but getting completely destroyed in the playoffs repeatedly does not constitute great in my book. If you're content to win the AL Central and never do anything better than that, then I guess you're free to call it great, but don't try to act like I'm in the wrong for not being content with that.

 

Also, you said it as if we were just coming off all those "great" years and this is some sort of one-off season.

[AROG]

Offering a higher price than the competition is how teams have been signing free agents forever. If that is overpaying, then damn near every single player who has ever signed in free agency was "overpaid". Sure, some (read: very few) players sign at discounts to play with a specific team, but for every 1 player who does that, 100 sign with whoever will pay them the most.

 

I understand a free market economy. I was just saying the current Twins team can't offer a salary at just above what the player is going to make from others and have them come, like say the Cardinals can. The Twins would have to pay way more then what the player is worth to get them to come. Players don't just go to the person paying the most. Often times they turn down teams from even entertaining offers. But that being said, the game is based on greed and you are most certainly at least half right, it might be more like one out of every fifty .

[S.]

I am probably in the minority but I think performance over a 162 game season matters much more and is more reflective than the playoffs.

I agree from a stat line performance, but the whole goal is to win the World Series, no? And i think our performance over a 162 game season becomes not terribly impressive if we aren't in the ALC most of the years in that decade.

[ThePuck]

I was just saying the current Twins team can't offer a salary at just above what the player is going to make from others and have them come, like say the Cardinals can. The Twins would have to pay way more then what the player is worth to get them to come. Players don't just go to the person paying the most. Often times they turn down teams from even entertaining offers. But that being said, the game is based on greed and you are most certainly at least half right, it might be more like one out of every fifty .

 

How do you know this for a fact? People always say this as if it's fact. In the end, it's a job for them. How do you know that, regardless of what they say, they probably end up going to the highest bidder a majority of the time...and why wouldn't they, it's their job. Also, let's not pretend we've been horrible for years and years. While we haven't been great in the 2000s, it's not like we've been the Royals. I doubt two horrible seasons after winning 94 games made a group of FAs go, 'let's avoid that place like the plague.' Though, I can't say that as fact, it's just my opinion.

[drjim]

I agree from a stat line performance, but the whole goal is to win the World Series, no? And i think our performance over a 162 game season becomes not terribly impressive if we aren't in the ALC most of the years in that decade.

 

Obviously, but I would wager almost every gm would say they go into the season trying to build a team that can make it to the playoffs.

[AROG]

Cosigned Puck's response. I'm sorry, but getting completely destroyed in the playoffs repeatedly does not constitute great in my book. If you're content to win the AL Central and never do anything better than that, then I guess you're free to call it great, but don't try to act like I'm in the wrong for not being content with that.

 

Also, you said it as if we were just coming off all those "great" years and this is some sort of one-off season.

 

I would't say "great" either as drjim said so himself. But they were very good. I am most likely in the minority as well. I would much rather win the division, no matter how bad it is, and get to the playoffs consistently, then win the WS then have four horrible years then win the WS again and then have ten losing seasons. If we make the playoffs, there is hope, this is baseball, anything can happen. When the twins went to the playoffs in '87 and '91 nobody thought they had a chance to win a game let alone the WS. Things happen when your in the dance. That's my humble opinion.

[ThePuck]

I agree from a stat line performance, but the whole goal is to win the World Series, no? And i think our performance over a 162 game season becomes not terribly impressive if we aren't in the ALC most of the years in that decade.

 

In the last decade or so, over 162 games, we're doing our best to win a division against teams that most ofthe time had less talent than we did. I seriously doubt if we had been in the AL East we would have gone to the playoffs more than once or twice. Getting to play 72 games against our division opponents as opposed to the AL east opponents artificially inflated our win totals. I'm not complaining, I enjoyed winning, and I enjoyed well played ball, but when you go into the playoffs and get embarrassed over and over, it's a reality check on how good you really are.

[S.]

I think maybe I'm being taken out of context. Obviously I don't want to win once and then be terrible for the next 10 years...but I also don't want to not win in over 20 years, suck miserably a lot of those years, and just get swept when we are able to make the playoffs.

 

edit: In response to AROG's last post

[ThePuck]

If we make the playoffs, there is hope, this is baseball, anything can happen.

 

The team still has to be built to advance in the playoffs. That starts with pitching. Some people say Detroit got lucky to get to the W Series last year because their record wasn't all that great. Look at that rotation. With a rotation like THAT, I might buy that anything can happen.

 

Overall, though, regardless of the cliche, I have a hard time buying into the anything can happen mentality when we've lost 12 straight playoff games and 5 straight playoff series.

[ThePuck]

I think maybe I'm being taken out of context. Obviously I don't want to win once and then be terrible for the next 10 years...but I also don't want to not win in over 20 years, suck miserably a lot of those years, and just get swept when we are able to make the playoffs.

 

edit: In response to AROG's last post

 

Yeah, I don't remember you saying anything like you'd think it'd be great if we won the WS then have four horrible years then win the WS again and then have ten losing seasons.

 

It not either/or, is it?

[S.]

I'm not complaining, I enjoyed winning, and I enjoyed well played ball, but when you go into the playoffs and get embarrassed over and over, it's a reality check on how good you really are.

Well said.

[AROG]

How do you know this for a fact? People always say this as if it's fact. In the end, it's a job for them. How do you know that, regardless of what they say, they probably end up going to the highest bidder a majority of the time...and why wouldn't they, it's their job. Also, let's not pretend we've been horrible for years and years. While we haven't been great in the 2000s, it's not like we've been the Royals. I doubt two horrible seasons after winning 94 games made a group of FAs go, 'let's avoid that place like the plague.' Though, I can't say that as fact, it's just my opinion.

 

I have many friends that have played in the minors and a few in the show as well as being recruited myself before I had major arm surgery my senior year of high school. They have talked about certain organizations you avoid playing for in the minors because you wont have a shot at getting to the show without years of being in the minors. Others that you try to get into because you have a real shot at getting thrown up there right away to see what you have and so on. I conceded that I was probably wrong with how the majority of major league players truly act. I turn down job offers daily to work for more money then I make today because I like where I am, the life I have, and the free time to post on websites all day instead of being hounded to work harder. But based on what I know from the people I know and how business in general works I "assumed" that it would act the same and should have put that it was my opinion not gospel truth.

[LaBombo]

I am probably in the minority but I think performance over a 162 game season matters much more and is more reflective than the playoffs.

Agree that that the regular season is a much better gauge of how good those teams were. Few people would hesitate to label them great if they'd had a 1970's Vikings-style run of dominance but fell just short of a championship. They'd be remembered as great, and probably figure much higher in most fans' hierarchy of MN pro sports team lore.

 

Instead, they're the good teams who always got crushed in the playoffs. And since the run was comprised mostlly of two different sets of players, that will be Gardenire's legacy as well in most people's minds if he's done this year: good manager, crushed in the playoffs.

[AROG]

The team still has to be built to advance in the playoffs. That starts with pitching. Some people say Detroit got lucky to get to the W Series last year because their record wasn't all that great. Look at that rotation. With a rotation like THAT, I might buy that anything can happen.

 

Overall, though, regardless of the cliche, I have a hard time buying into the anything can happen mentality when we've lost 12 straight playoff games and 5 straight playoff series.

 

I agree that wasn't your desire to win one and be done. All we have to go on is how other teams have done. Very few teams have been able to win the WS and do well the years after it. They generally have to drop payroll and start to rebuild. I agree that I want the Twins to be good year after year with playoff wins and WS wins. I think that what Ryan is trying to do is build so that he can do that. He has been building the farm system to bring in the right players from growth and IMO he will go get the player or two to try and make the big push when he has the team to do so. He doesn't have the best track record of that, I will admit, but I also think we have seen a slightly different Ryan this time around, IMO

[Willihammer]

Obviously, but I would wager almost every gm would say they go into the season trying to build a team that can make it to the playoffs.

 

I disagree. Ryan might have that mindset but some GMs are clearly more willing than others to improve already playoff-bound teams.

 

The Red Sox, Rangers, and As all made those sorts of trades. The Twins, during their run of just-playoff good under Ryan for most of the 00s, weren't ever into those sort of moves. Always content to sit on their haunches.

 

Smith was different. He just made a horrible trade, due to poor scouting or whatever.

[ThePuck]

I disagree. Ryan might have that mindset but some GMs are clearly more willing than others to improve already playoff-bound teams.

 

The Red Sox, Rangers, and As all made those sorts of trades. The Twins, during their run of just-playoff good under Ryan for most of the 00s, weren't ever into those sort of moves. Always content to sit on their haunches.

 

Smith was different. He just made a horrible trade, due to poor scouting or whatever.

 

The offseasons after 2006 and 2010 were very telling for me. Great record, bounced from the playoffs early, and instead of addressing the needed areas during those offseasons and going for it, they downgraded and/or plugged retreads into spots and called it good. Very frustrating. A team serious abotu being serious W Series contender can't rest on their laurels.

[ThePuck]

I agree that wasn't your desire to win one and be done. All we have to go on is how other teams have done. Very few teams have been able to win the WS and do well the years after it. They generally have to drop payroll and start to rebuild. I agree that I want the Twins to be good year after year with playoff wins and WS wins. I think that what Ryan is trying to do is build so that he can do that. He has been building the farm system to bring in the right players from growth and IMO he will go get the player or two to try and make the big push when he has the team to do so. He doesn't have the best track record of that, I will admit, but I also think we have seen a slightly different Ryan this time around, IMO

 

Again, even if it were true for some players (and believe me, I'm not saying it's not taken into account by some players), we haven't been bad for many years recently. Going into this year, it'd only been two years. We weren't the Pirates or Royals.

[AROG]

Again, even if it were true for some players (and believe me, I'm not saying it's not taken into account by some players), we haven't been bad for many years recently. Going into this year, it'd only been two years. We weren't the Pirates or Royals.

 

Absolutely, IMO the players that might be staying away are scared that they we might end up like the Pirates or Royals. I agree that we aren't that far away from being a winning team again and shouldn't be labeled as a team like those two. My original point in this was that Ryan was being criticized for saying we would have a winning team this winter and that he was doing so to convey that he wasn't in full rebuild mode like the Astros, that he wants to win now. I believe he did so, IMO, to try and lure better free agents here, so they remembered that we aren't the Royals and the Pirates.

[ThePuck]

Absolutely, IMO the players that might be staying away are scared that they we might end up like the Pirates or Royals. I agree that we aren't that far away from being a winning team again and shouldn't be labeled as a team like those two. My original point in this was that Ryan was being criticized for saying we would have a winning team this winter and that he was doing so to convey that he wasn't in full rebuild mode like the Astros, that he wants to win now. I believe he did so, IMO, to try and lure better free agents here, so they remembered that we aren't the Royals and the Pirates.

 

IMO, he did so in order to get people to buy tickets. BTW, I enjoyed the discussion.