Article: Twins Season Takes Another Dismal Turn

[Nick Nelson]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2168-Twins-Season-Takes-Another-Dismal-Turn

[tjsyam921]

I cant believe Hicks made it this far into the season hitting under .200 before being demoted. I just hope he comes around. Defense is good, base stealing could improve, power is good if he gets more contact, but he needs the average to climb for sure.

[Bark's Lounge]

To me the biggest gut punch of the season was demoting Arcia and Parmelee. After being swept by the Royals - it is not surprising some changes were made.

 

Many, including myself, have championed Hicks this season, but at this point, sending him down for a month to retain his services for an extra year sounds like a great plan to me. In a perfect world, Hicks would have won ROY and the Twins would have finished at around .500.

 

Diamond on the other hand, might be a poor man's Allan Anderson. I appreciate the season he gave us last year, but at this point, I do not expect anything more from him from this point forward. If he returns and is a success - Great! If he never returns again, and this is the last we hear from him - It will not uproot my peace of mind.

 

I am glad Arcia is back. We really need his bat in the line-up. Hell, he will probably strike out a lot. It's not like everyone else who plays consistently hasn't been doing that.

 

Hopefully Parmelee is a soon to follow call up.

[troyhobbs]

Even w/ the low expectations the Twins have managed to disappoint. They need to sign some big free agents this off season. Hoping everything works out in 2016 is not a good strategy and sucks for Twins fans that want to follow baseball past June

[Badsmerf]

Gut punch? More like exhaling after being gut punch for the whole season by these two. Hicks would have the 6th lowest OPS in all of qualified starters in baseball (if he qualified) and Diamond is one of the worst 5 starters in baseball. These guys just have no business being on an MLB roster right now.

[Nick Nelson]

Gut punch? More like exhaling after being gut punch for the whole season by these two. Hicks would have the 6th lowest OPS in all of qualified starters in baseball (if he qualified) and Diamond is one of the worst 5 starters in baseball. These guys just have no business being on an MLB roster right now.

Correct. I said as much, did I not? The fact that these demotions were warranted doesn't make them any more pleasant. It's a crappy situation.

[Major League Ready]

Even w/ the low expectations the Twins have managed to disappoint. They need to sign some big free agents this off season. Hoping everything works out in 2016 is not a good strategy and sucks for Twins fans that want to follow baseball past June

 

With the exceptionof Houston, the three teams with the lowest payrolls in baseball are the best teams in the MLs. Houston is going to be very good but they will have to go through the rebuilding process which takes time, just like the twins.

 

The answer is not overpriced FAs, especially for a team in the middle of the pack revenue wise. The model for the Twins is not the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. It is a version of the Rays and As where they are able to hold on to some of thier stars instead of trading them away before they hit free agency.

[JB_Iowa]

I didn't have high expectations for this season so I'm not sure anything would feel like a gut punch but I don't find Hicks and Diamond to be the biggest disappointments of the season.

 

Hicks was making the jump from AA -- we knew that it would be difficult. While Diamond's struggles are disappointing, they are not totally surprising -- there were plenty of people who cautioned over the winter that he might not repeat last year's performance.

 

For me, its much more disheartening to see a coaching staff that doesn't change (and parrots the same old, same old all the time); a front office that doesn't change (and misled the fans last winter about this team's expectations -- and, more scary than that, may have mislead THEMSELVES over the team's expectations); a Josh Willingham who is MIA; a Justin Morneau whose power is MIA; a Ryan Doumit whose performance is in the doldrums; a Trevor Plouffe who hasn't shown any offensive improvement from last year; a starting pitching staff that is generally as bad as we expected, etc., etc., etc.

 

At this point, I feel a kind of resigned acceptance of how bad the Twins are. The problem is that although I see the talent in the minor leagues, I'm not sure that they will be able to make the transition and more than that, I don't have any faith that the Twins will handle them appropriately as they make that transition. And despite the wealth of talent, I still don't see where good to excellent major league pitching will come from.

 

It's not a gut punch, I'm just discouraged.

[Seth Stohs]

Just a couple of thoughts:

 

1.) Another example of why jobs should really not be up for grabs in spring training, at least not when still-young players are involved. Hicks had a great spring, and did everything to earn the job... in spring. But the regular season is different.

 

2.) Thought removal of bone chips is generally considered pretty minor, and it is, Diamond, Worley and Hendriks all had trouble in their returns from that surgery. Diamond's down-and-in-on-righties slider just wasn't as sharp this year as it was last year. Maybe they needed to allow more time for recovery...???

 

Second guessing sure is easy, isn't it?

[troyhobbs]

With the exceptionof Houston, the three teams with the lowest payrolls in baseball are the best teams in the MLs. Houston is going to be very good but they will have to go through the rebuilding process which takes time, just like the twins.

 

The answer is not overpriced FAs, especially for a team in the middle of the pack revenue wise. The model for the Twins is not the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. It is a version of the Rays and As where they are able to hold on to some of thier stars instead of trading them away before they hit free agency.

 

They don't need over priced players per say, but ones that are good at baseball would certainly help

[Pitz]

In a perfect world' date=' Hicks would have won ROY and the Twins would have finished at around .500.

[/quote']

 

In a perfect world, the Twins finish around .500. What else can be said?

[Ghost of Sid Hartman]

With the exceptionof Houston, the three teams with the lowest payrolls in baseball are the best teams in the MLs. Houston is going to be very good but they will have to go through the rebuilding process which takes time, just like the twins.

 

The answer is not overpriced FAs, especially for a team in the middle of the pack revenue wise. The model for the Twins is not the Yankees, Red Sox or Angels. It is a version of the Rays and As where they are able to hold on to some of thier stars instead of trading them away before they hit free agency.

 

Actually, a better model for the Twins would probably be the Cardinals - midsize market (StL is actually smaller I believe), payroll in the middle of the pack, built mainly through the farm system...one large difference is the ability/willingness of St. Louis to sign the FA they acquire on a rental basis after parting with highly thought of prospects/young MLB ready players (Holliday and Rasmus come to mind as recent examples, although obviously not part of the same transaction). While I can understand the lack of the this type of activity from the front office currently, as they are obviously at a trough in the cycle the last transaction I can recall that would fit this mold was the Shannon Stewart trade/signing. Perhaps Luis Castillo. *sigh*

[jorgenswest]

Every organization should strive to emulate the Cardinals. They have maintained a very good farm system for many years without high picks. Some of the credit for their player development success goes to Jeffrey Luhnow who joined the Astros before 2012. With the help of two high picks and trades he has turned the dismal Astros farm system into one of the best in baseball. It will be interesting to see how important he was to the Cardinals success.

 

The Twins have a good farm system. They need to develop those assets and keep adding to the talent. They need to have patience as those players struggle as they move up to the majors.

[LastOnePicked]

For me, its much more disheartening to see a coaching staff that doesn't change (and parrots the same old, same old all the time); a front office that doesn't change (and misled the fans last winter about this team's expectations -- and, more scary than that, may have mislead THEMSELVES over the team's expectations)

 

This is as good as it can be said. While a few of the faces may have changed, the team's culture seems exactly the same. I don't harbor much hope for our highly-touted prospects if they're entering an organization that cannot develop talent.

 

There will be no free agent signings, and there's no reason to think that Ryan, Gardenhire or any of the staff will be changing going forward. Jim Pohlad has the personnel he wants, and seems to have very little interest in the team overall (I'm still puzzled that, during the height of the trade deadline, Pohlad admitted that he hadn't talked to his GM for nearly two weeks!).

 

I think 2013 is going to look an awful lot like the foreseeable future for this club. I hope I'm wrong, but I think the Twins will be the AL version of the 2000-2010s Pittsburgh Pirates. Stagnant, mismanaged, and hardly worth watching.

[Winston Smith]

We are now 20 years into the Ryan/Smith era and 12 years with gardy and we have one playoff series win and working on a 174-255 record the last 3 yrs. Maybe just maybe it's time for some new blood.

[Rosterman]

The problem is letting players walk...even those down the line like a Joe Benson. Evaluating your own talent and doing something, anything with them before they implode or say "screw it, I'm taking a paycheck elsewhere" is what is hurting the Twins. They are often good at evaluating discards, but still...this season they signed dozens of minor league free agents. How many truly stuck. Same as last year, which was -- I admit -- a bonanza for guys that did stick beyond a year. You make and keep the core of a team from season to season. You supplement it by signing a free agent or two. You bring in heatfelt reserves to fill out minor league rosters with guys that could contribute short-term due to injury. You work with as little as 1-3 guys a season who actually will break the major league roster, not necessarily that first year but in subsequent years. You don't suddenly bring up prospects that make a team overnite. And if you have guys that may walk (Cuddyer, Kubel, Nathan) you start dealing. When guys have a career year (Young, Willingham) you look at the deal. That is the success of organizations like the Rays and the A's. Seriously, how many guys on the 40-man will be on the 40-man in two years. How many hot commodities do the Twins have in the system that will break in and shine in 2014, or is it 2015, or will it be 2016 before a half-dozen guys actually hold a place on the current team roster. You can throw money at free agents, but no one wants to play for a rebuilding team unless the money is huge...and there's always some other team on the cusp that can dole out huge dollars for the same services.

[ThePuck]

We are now 20 years into the Ryan/Smith era and 12 years with gardy and we have one playoff series win and working on a 174-255 record the last 3 yrs. Maybe just maybe it's time for some new blood.

 

It's all Smith's fault :-)

[roger]

Yesterday's game was ugly and it was uglier in person!

 

I expect Hicks would have been sent down earlier had either Mastroianni or Ramirez been available. Both are rehabbing in games now and expect one will be back in a week or so.

 

I agree with Seth regarding the elbow surgery. Not certain that 'minor cleanups' for Diamond, Worley and Hendriks isn't having a major effect on their seasons. Can we expect better from one or two of the three next year?

 

But the disappointment this year has to be the play of Doumit, Willingham, Morneau and Plouffe. I know a lot of you will be critical of anyone who defends Mr. Ryan, but no way could he have foreseen that all four of these would be huge disappointments this year. Maybe not quite as good as last year...but all four this bad? As Jim Souhan wrote today, they were at the trading deadline and 'nobody' wanted their players. Ugggh!

[ThePuck]

But the disappointment this year has to be the play of Doumit, Willingham, Morneau and Plouffe. I know a lot of you will be critical of anyone who defends Mr. Ryan, but no way could he have foreseen that all four of these would be huge disappointments this year. Maybe not quite as good as last year...but all four this bad?

 

When it comes to position players, I think that's fair. Completely fair. What I will point out though is that Dayton Moore also couldn't expect almost all of his position players to take a dump this year on offense as well, but he has gotten slammed on here for making moves on the pitching front to go for it this year. Apparently he had to envision 6, 7 of his up and comers all would take steps back as they have done instead of taking steps forward (or at least sideways). Many of the people criticizing him, staunchly defend Ryan. So it's interesting, since, in three-five years, we'll likely be in KCs same shoes they were in this offseason.

 

What could be predicted though, was how bad our starting pitching would be.

[Nick Nelson]

But the disappointment this year has to be the play of Doumit, Willingham, Morneau and Plouffe.

They have been disappointing, to be sure, but with the possible exception of Plouffe none were expected to be integral parts of the team's ongoing rebuild so I don't find their performances quite as worrisome.

[Brandon]

Just a couple of thoughts:

 

1.) Another example of why jobs should really not be up for grabs in spring training, at least not when still-young players are involved. Hicks had a great spring, and did everything to earn the job... in spring. But the regular season is different.

 

Second guessing sure is easy, isn't it?

 

Seth, I have to disagree with this quote. Jobs should be up for grabs in spring training. A smart team will have another option in case the player can't sustain success but the offseason is a great way to plan and ensure there is a plan B in these scenarios. In this instance our plan B "Mastroianni has been hurt all season.

[drjim]

When it comes to position players, I think that's fair. Completely fair. What I will point out though is that Dayton Moore also couldn't expect almost all of his position players to take a dump this year on offense as well, but he has gotten slammed on here for making moves on the pitching front to go for it this year. Apparently he had to envision 6, 7 of his up and comers all would take steps back as they have done instead of taking steps forward (or at least sideways). Many of the people criticizing him, staunchly defend Ryan. So it's interesting, since, in three years, we'll likely be in KCs same shoes they were in this offseason.

 

What could be predicted though, was how bad our starting pitching would be.

 

KC and the Twins were in quite different circumstances going into the season.

 

And there is no correlation between criticizing Moore and defending Ryan. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

[ThePuck]

KC and the Twins were in quite different circumstances going into the season.

 

And there is no correlation between criticizing Moore and defending Ryan. Not sure how you came to that conclusion.

 

Criticizing Moore for going for it (on the pitching front) because he should have know most of his position player would take a dump....while defending Ryan for how bad the offense is (and team overall) because he couldn't be expected to believe so many of his position players would take a dump this year (Morney, Plouffe, Willingham, Doumit).

 

And I didn't say KC and the Twins were in the same situation going into this season...not sure where you got that from what I said.

[drjim]

Seth, I have to disagree with this quote. Jobs should be up for grabs in spring training. A smart team will have another option in case the player can't sustain success but the offseason is a great way to plan and ensure there is a plan B in these scenarios. In this instance our plan B "Mastroianni has been hurt all season.

 

There really weren't options for one year deals for CFs in free agency. Only other option was to not trade Span and Revere.

[Winston Smith]

One question for the loyalists here, how long does this continue before major changes should be made? (Moving Smith to a different office and changing some minor coaches doesn’t count).

[ThePuck]

One question for the loyalists here, how long does this continue before major changes should be made? (Moving Smith to a different office and changing some minor coaches doesn’t count).

 

As long as it takes, I imagine. Ryan and Gardy, the combo that can't be faulted :-)

[Brandon]

Also when our minor league system starts going down hill, its only a matter of time till we are not going to be a competetive team. It appears to me we are on the uphill phase of the rebuild as players are starting to make it up to the majors and beging to get experience and broken in. This year is Pressly, Arcia, Hicks. Next season will be Sano, Meyer, maybe May, Tonkin, The following season will be Buxton...... and we should be a competetive team around this time. Also at this time there is a good chance the Twins will be able to sign a FA or 2 to help push this team over the top.

[ThePuck]

Also when our minor league system starts going down hill, its only a matter of time till we are not going to be a competetive team. It appears to me we are on the uphill phase of the rebuild as players are starting to make it up to the majors and beging to get experience and broken in. This year is Pressly, Arcia, Hicks. Next season will be Sano, Meyer, maybe May, Tonkin, The following season will be Buxton...... and we should be a competetive team around this time. Also at this time there is a good chance the Twins will be able to sign a FA or 2 to help push this team over the top.

 

I like the optimism, but why would you think we'd right away be competitive. These guys are going to have growing pains. It's not going to happen overnight.

[Willihammer]

I have a feeling we just bottomed out, Twins fans. Pretty soon Hammer will displace Chris Hermann and Arcia is on his way up. I personally find Arcia to be a much more exciting prospect than anyone not named Sano or Buxton. We'll get to have a look at Albers (don't hold your breath).

 

Hey you can't have it all.

[nokomismod]

It's tough watching a team that the Twins had owned for about 11 years beat the crap out of you. Good for the Royals in landing some pitching. Guthrie, Santana, and Shields are all pitching well, and I wish they were all pitching for the Twins. I'm concerned this rebuild will last for 4 more years. Talk me off the that ledge (only joking sort of). Looking forward to Gopher Football!