It's Time to Get This Started - Bring Up the Kids in 2014

[THE DFC]

In 1999, the Twins regularly had this line-up:

 

C - Terry Steinbach - 37 y/o

1B - Dougy Mientkiewicz - 25 y/o

2B - Todd Walker - 26 y/o

3B - Ron Coomer - 32 y/o

SS - Denny Hocking 29 y/o

LF - Chad Allen - 24 y/o

CF - Torii Hunter - 23 y/o

RF - Matt Lawton - 27 y/o

DH - Mardy Cordova - 29 y/o

 

Basically, it was a line-up of interesting young prospects inter-mixed with declining vets that amounted to a 63-97 record--good for last in the division. Sound familiar?

 

Two years later in 2001, they rolled out this line-up:

 

C - A.J. Pierzynski* - 24

1B - Doug Mientkiewicz* - 27

2B - Luis Rivas - 21

SS - Cristian Guzman# - 23

3B - Corey Koskie* - 28

LF - Jacque Jones* - 26

CF - Torii Hunter - 25

RF - Matt Lawton* - 29

DH - David Ortiz* - 25

 

This team went 85-77, just finishing in 2nd place in the division, and as we all know, went on to make a strong run of division titles.

 

It's time for 2014 to serve as the transition year that 2000 was, so 2015 can be the year we make a run like we did in 2001.

 

By next July, why shouldn't we see this?

 

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

...with Danny Santana working in with Pedro Florimon and Chris Collabello/Chris Parmelee/Josmil Pinto/Joe Mauer forming some sort of DH/1B/C rotation.

 

The reason I'm posting this is that I hear a lot of odd statement regarding sending prospects back down to the minors (Hicks), keeping players down in the minors (May, Arcia, etc.), and retaining veterans in the offseason (Pelfry, Doumit, Morneau).

 

This is incredibly short-term micro thinking that ultimately just causes more problems down the road that it solves in the short term. We have a historical model with this very franchise bringing up a wave of highly regarded young talent, letting them season in the bigs and ultimately be very successful.

 

Now that we have an even stronger wave on the horizon, why would we deviate from that plan in favor of moves that have consistently buried us at the bottom of the heap over the last couple of years? That is absolutely ludicrous. And, if you can't accept, say, 10 more losses next year in exchange for getting to watch potential future stars develop before our eyes, you're a silly person.

 

Specifically, Doumit, Willingham and Morneau make no sense on this roster. I know some people are excited by Dozier's glove, but let's get serious--Rosario is a way, way better prospect and is ready for the bigs. Plouffe? I don't see where he fits and probably could be moved for some decent value.

 

And, it's the same thing with the rotation. Meyer, May, Hendricks, Gibson, Albers all need to be in the mix given the nobody but Deduno has secured a rotation spot for next year, and who knows is he's stable enough to hold it down? (I'm assuming Pelfry will Scott Boras another team in the off-season). Diamond maybe deserves one last shot, but why even work with with Correia and hint at Blackburn at this point?

 

No one wants to see this garbage team of underperforming retreads anymore. We have the #1 system in baseball, and a good chunk of these kids are knocking on the door next year. It's time for Terry Ryan to answer.

 

One last thing, in 2001, Tom Kelly hung it up and allowed Ron Gardenhire to breath new life into the clubhouse. It's time for Gardenhire to follow suit, whether you're a fan of his or not.

[stringer bell]

I agree with almost everything above. However, I think whoever can be found to be an effective pitcher should stick around (Pelfrey & Correia perhaps). Besides Albers, who is thought to have mediocre stuff, no one is knocking on the door to join the rotation. Also, while I think he has a bright future, it might help Aaron Hicks to spend a month plus the playoffs in Rochester (with the added benefit of one more year of team control). This would give the Twins a chance to look at a couple more fourth outfielder alternatives (Richardson and Mastro).

[jorgenswest]

I am with you on going young.

 

The 1999 season was already a huge turn in going young. Look at the 1998 roster if you want to see old.

 

Since 1998, only twice has both the weighted average pitcher age and hitter age been both over 28. This year and 2010. This isn't a rebuild. You don't rebuild with one of your oldest rosters in 15 years. This was hope that all of your veterans will defy injury and decline and all will somehow put up a peak season

 

It is time to stop signing old guys to multiyear contracts. Go young as they did in early 80s and 1999-2001. Struggle. Grow and improve together. Set the foundation for the next successful winning run.

[drjim]

I think they are more or less headed there. None of the elite prospects will stay blocked by mediocre vets.

 

I don't have a problem with keeping a few vets around to help ease the transition. Pinto is probably not enough of a stick to be a full time dh. And there will be room for a FA pitcher or two.

 

As a side note - I can only imagine the angst about payroll if the Twins roll out this roster.

[Dman]

Although I like the idea I don't see it happening. Mainly because as an organization you don't want to bring players up early to learn in the big leagues. You want those players as close to ready for MLB as possible because you only control them for X number of years and you want to maximize your return on investment before you have to outbid the Yankee's for Sano and Buxton. If the Twins didn't have to worry about that then the scenario above would make even more sense for the Twins because it lowers payroll. My guess is you won't see those guys until the Twins think they are ready.

[ericchri]

I think it would be very interesting to see whether there was any real outcry over the payroll, honestly. I also think it would be interesting to see whether attendance would go up or down if they went full-on youth movement. Living where I do and as I do I'm not really part of any crowd that would give me any feel for what would actually happen.

 

I'd love to see it truly happen, both for my curiosity over what the reaction would be, and also my own interest in actually watching the team. I've reached the point where I'm only interested in maybe a third of the players on the team anymore (Plouffe, Dozier, Florimon, Hicks, Herrmann, Gibson, Deduno, and I guess Diamond too, sort of). It might be a couple more if you throw in bullpen guys, but I don't get too excited about bullpen guys in general.

 

So yeah, bring on the young guys now. If we're terrible, so what? We're already terrible.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

It's time for 2014 to serve as the transition year that 2000 was, so 2015 can be the year we make a run like we did in 2001.

 

By next July, why shouldn't we see this?

 

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

...with Danny Santana working in with Pedro Florimon and Chris Collabello/Chris Parmelee/Josmil Pinto/Joe Mauer forming some sort of DH/1B/C rotation.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the twins need a youth movement, but Pinto is too valuable as a catcher to DH.

I also think the Twins have given up on Parms, maybe Mauer at 1.

Sano won't come up until he shows more maturity.

[RedBull34]

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

I don't think that we will be seeing any Buxton next year, at least not to begin with. Plus we might very well have the Hammer too.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Not sure this is a good idea.

For one, if the guys have things to learn in the minors, let them learn. It doesn't make good business sense to waste service time learning things that they could learn in the minors.

 

Second, I'm not sure it's good for everyone's development.

 

Third, if they get called up at the same time, their clocks all expire at the same time too. It means they will need to replace nearly an entire team 6 years later. Much better to spread these guys out as they are ready.

[Mike Sixel]

I will not complain about salary if they actually commit to the future. They did not do that this year, or last year. Who cares about service time. They can bank 30-50 million a year to pay future salary. I would probably sign the best pitcher and 1B I could, since I see no one there for 2-3 years.

[blairpaul715]

Personally I love the idea, and about team control, if any of the studs show promise early lock them up with contracts that take 1 to 3 yrs of there Free Agent yrs, and even if you bring them all up at the same time, then they wont all be free agents at the same time, and not all of them will pan out. If we suck for another year or two of the young guys playing, it will only help to keep our Minors loaded or stocked with new up and coming studs.

[Oxtung]

In 1999, the Twins regularly had this line-up:

 

C - Terry Steinbach - 37 y/o

1B - Dougy Mientkiewicz - 25 y/o

2B - Todd Walker - 26 y/o

3B - Ron Coomer - 32 y/o

SS - Denny Hocking 29 y/o

LF - Chad Allen - 24 y/o

CF - Torii Hunter - 23 y/o

RF - Matt Lawton - 27 y/o

DH - Mardy Cordova - 29 y/o

 

Basically, it was a line-up of interesting young prospects inter-mixed with declining vets that amounted to a 63-97 record--good for last in the division. Sound familiar?

 

Two years later in 2001, they rolled out this line-up:

 

C - A.J. Pierzynski* - 24

1B - Doug Mientkiewicz* - 27

2B - Luis Rivas - 21

SS - Cristian Guzman# - 23

3B - Corey Koskie* - 28

LF - Jacque Jones* - 26

CF - Torii Hunter - 25

RF - Matt Lawton* - 29

DH - David Ortiz* - 25

 

This team went 85-77, just finishing in 2nd place in the division, and as we all know, went on to make a strong run of division titles.

 

It's time for 2014 to serve as the transition year that 2000 was, so 2015 can be the year we make a run like we did in 2001.

 

By next July, why shouldn't we see this?

 

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

...with Danny Santana working in with Pedro Florimon and Chris Collabello/Chris Parmelee/Josmil Pinto/Joe Mauer forming some sort of DH/1B/C rotation.

 

The reason I'm posting this is that I hear a lot of odd statement regarding sending prospects back down to the minors (Hicks), keeping players down in the minors (May, Arcia, etc.), and retaining veterans in the offseason (Pelfry, Doumit, Morneau).

 

This is incredibly short-term micro thinking that ultimately just causes more problems down the road that it solves in the short term. We have a historical model with this very franchise bringing up a wave of highly regarded young talent, letting them season in the bigs and ultimately be very successful.

 

Now that we have an even stronger wave on the horizon, why would we deviate from that plan in favor of moves that have consistently buried us at the bottom of the heap over the last couple of years? That is absolutely ludicrous. And, if you can't accept, say, 10 more losses next year in exchange for getting to watch potential future stars develop before our eyes, you're a silly person.

 

Specifically, Doumit, Willingham and Morneau make no sense on this roster. I know some people are excited by Dozier's glove, but let's get serious--Rosario is a way, way better prospect and is ready for the bigs. Plouffe? I don't see where he fits and probably could be moved for some decent value.

 

And, it's the same thing with the rotation. Meyer, May, Hendricks, Gibson, Albers all need to be in the mix given the nobody but Deduno has secured a rotation spot for next year, and who knows is he's stable enough to hold it down? (I'm assuming Pelfry will Scott Boras another team in the off-season). Diamond maybe deserves one last shot, but why even work with with Correia and hint at Blackburn at this point?

 

No one wants to see this garbage team of underperforming retreads anymore. We have the #1 system in baseball, and a good chunk of these kids are knocking on the door next year. It's time for Terry Ryan to answer.

 

One last thing, in 2001, Tom Kelly hung it up and allowed Ron Gardenhire to breath new life into the clubhouse. It's time for Gardenhire to follow suit, whether you're a fan of his or not.

 

Pushing players to the majors just to get them there seems to be a poor developmental path. Going young is fine, if the guys are ready for it but there is no way to know that from the outside looking in.

[LaBombo]

Personally I love the idea, and about team control, if any of the studs show promise early lock them up with contracts that take 1 to 3 yrs of there Free Agent yrs, and even if you bring them all up at the same time, then they wont all be free agents at the same time, and not all of them will pan out. If we suck for another year or two of the young guys playing, it will only help to keep our Minors loaded or stocked with new up and coming studs.

There are some agents who won't even listen to extension offers that go beyond team control. And the twins will end up "locking up" the guys who flame out too.

 

Also, it's interesting that people assume the Twins will spend whatever it takes to make up for early callups and super 2's when they didn't even spend what they budgeted this year. Not a terribly safe bet.

[Pius Jefferson]

Buxton isn't even dominating high A ball and he's expected to be the starting CF to start the season?

[Lonestar]

By next July, why shouldn't we see this?

 

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

...with Danny Santana working in with Pedro Florimon and Chris Collabello/Chris Parmelee/Josmil Pinto/Joe Mauer forming some sort of DH/1B/C rotation.

 

He did say "By next July". It's possible that Rosario and Sano and Buxton are ready then. Call them up when they are ready to develop at the MLB level.

[ThePuck]

Buxton isn't even dominating high A ball and he's expected to be the starting CF to start the season?

 

Wasn't Buxton just named FSL player of the week?

 

I agree, the idea that Buxton starting the season next year in Twins CF seems ridiculous, but he's doing just fine in FSL.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I will not complain about salary if they actually commit to the future. They did not do that this year, or last year.

 

Alex Meyer and Trevor May say hi.

[ThePuck]

Alex Meyer and Trevor May say hi.

 

Two players in two years...you sure proved him wrong :-)

[drjim]

I will not complain about salary if they actually commit to the future. They did not do that this year, or last year. Who cares about service time. They can bank 30-50 million a year to pay future salary. I would probably sign the best pitcher and 1B I could, since I see no one there for 2-3 years.

 

I think you are quite mistaken here. They signed free agents that wouldn't block prospects and kept payroll flexibility for when the kids start to emerge. Last year they had few worthwhile prospects and this year they have already debuted 4 rookies that should play significant roles going forward and other fringe guys.

 

They still have to field a roster and they can't play kids that aren't ready or it is a team of guys like Hicks. They need to bring rookies up a couple at a time for service issues but probably moreso for performance issues.

[drjim]

Pushing players to the majors just to get them there seems to be a poor developmental path. Going young is fine, if the guys are ready for it but there is no way to know that from the outside looking in.

 

This is by next July. Buxton might be aggressive but good chance the rest will be ready.

[Lonestar]

Not sure this is a good idea.

For one, if the guys have things to learn in the minors, let them learn. It doesn't make good business sense to waste service time learning things that they could learn in the minors.

 

Second, I'm not sure it's good for everyone's development.

 

Third, if they get called up at the same time, their clocks all expire at the same time too. It means they will need to replace nearly an entire team 6 years later. Much better to spread these guys out as they are ready.

Aren't your first and second reasons the same? You want to do what's best for the player. You sometimes have to do what's best for the team. That's what's saddening/maddening about Hicks situation.

 

As far as payroll flexibility, the Twins payroll could be less than $70M next year without a youth movement. The kids won't get expensive until Mauer's contract runs out. That might be a moot point because Mauer is one of us [sometimes]. What would Mauer's value be this year if he was a first baseman?

[ThePuck]

 

As far as payroll flexibility, the Twins payroll could be less than $70M next year without a youth movement. The kids won't get expensive until Mauer's contract runs out. That might be a moot point because Mauer is one of us [sometimes]. What would Mauer's value be this year if he was a first baseman?

 

Could be less than 70M? I don't think there's any doubt at all it will be less than 70M. Morny and Blackburn's contracts alone drops us 19M, and there's more than that coming off the books. Might even be below 60M.

[Thrylos]

 

By next July, why shouldn't we see this?

 

C Joe Mauer - 31

1B Chris Parmelee - 26

2B Eddie Rosario - 22

SS Pedro Florimon - 27

3B Miguel Sano - 21

LF Oswaldo Arcia - 23

CF Byron Buxton - 20

RF Aaron Hicks - 24

DH Josmil Pinto - 25

 

...with Danny Santana working in with Pedro Florimon and Chris Collabello/Chris Parmelee/Josmil Pinto/Joe Mauer forming some sort of DH/1B/C rotation.

 

You kind of answered your own question:

Because the following will not happen with this GM and FO.

 

One last thing, in 2001, Tom Kelly hung it up and allowed Ron Gardenhire to breath new life into the clubhouse. It's time for Gardenhire to follow suit, whether you're a fan of his or not.

 

I'd go a little further back: When Pohlad bought the club in 1985 he hired a 32 year old guy to be the GM who built a top of the line front office hiring a 33 year old scouting director and a 36 year old manager.

 

Fast forward 30 years and when the same scouting director is running the team and the same manager is still around and has a lot of input in player development, you have problems. Add a president who cares more about the menu at Target Field and the next hick act to sign for a concert and an owner who cares more about making movies and various political causes than the Twins, and you got the bigger picture.

 

This team needs freshening from the top down. The product on the field is just a symptom. These guys who have been running the team have had 22 years (since 1991) to prove that they cannot win. Not a small sample size.

[THE DFC]

Buxton isn't even dominating high A ball and he's expected to be the starting CF to start the season?

 

Hey, thanks for reading details. It's not like details are important or anything.

[ThePuck]

Souhan: Where?s that stench coming from? Target Field | Star Tribune

 

'It’s time to stop saying the Twins are rebuilding. They’re not. They’re waiting. They’re not constructing a sports car. They’re standing at a bus stop.The Twins embarrassed themselves Thursday afternoon, losing 7-2 to the Royals.

 

If the Twins were rebuilding, they would be playing a lot of raw but talented youngsters. They’re not. They’re showcasing mediocre-to-lousy players who never have won at any level and might never win at any level.'-- Jim Souhan

[frightwig]

Sano and Rosario are youngsters in AA; Buxton is a kid in High A. Let's relax a little, give them time to develop and master fundamental skills in the minors before pushing them into the deep end of the pool. As Hicks and Arcia both showed this season, there can be a wide gulf between AA and the majors. Sometimes, even the transition from AAA to the majors can be difficult. It could be another 3-4 years before the next wave of prospects actually reaches its potential and becomes a good core group of players.

 

In the meantime, I don't mind if Ryan plans to 'stand at a bus stop' while waiting on the younger prospects next season. Focus on making some longterm improvements to the pitching rotation. Give Hicks and Arcia another shot next April. Let the other kids play the season at AA/AAA, see how they're coming along. Collect another high draft pick. I don't see much point in rushing them all up, so they can flounder as a group next year. It could set back the development of some of them, even.

[Tokyo Twins Fan]

I am all for bring up a bunch of the guys that are likely ready and letting them get their work in at the major league level Sano, Rosario, Arcia and Hicks. But we clearly do not have young pitching that is ready to move up.

 

A rotation of Gibson, Deduno and two of Correia, Diamond, Worley, Hendricks or Albers (whoever comes out of spring training looking good), but we really need to get an upper level starter (not an ace, but someone that would at least be a 2 or 3 on a good team) that 1) can be a great mentor and leader to the younger guys, 2) can provide a good chance to win at least every 5 days so the young guys avoid long losing streaks and 3) that takes the pressure of the young starters to feel like they need to be a number 1 pitcher. To that end there are a few good FA pitchers who would fit the mold and I think if the FO does absolutely nothing else this off-season they at least owe it to the young pitchers (not to mention the fans) to spend some real money on a two to four year contract for a true top of the rotation type guy.

 

See here for the top 40 available (note I would want someone from the top 20 who has at least a few years left and that would be a good clubhouse/mentor type).

[launchingthrees]

I don't think your young lineup improves the team next year and eats up valuable service time. It would be fun to watch for awhile though.

[SwainZag]

Sano and Rosario are youngsters in AA; Buxton is a kid in High A. Let's relax a little, give them time to develop and master fundamental skills in the minors before pushing them into the deep end of the pool. As Hicks and Arcia both showed this season, there can be a wide gulf between AA and the majors. Sometimes, even the transition from AAA to the majors can be difficult. It could be another 3-4 years before the next wave of prospects actually reaches its potential and becomes a good core group of players.

 

In the meantime, I don't mind if Ryan plans to 'stand at a bus stop' while waiting on the younger prospects next season. Focus on making some longterm improvements to the pitching rotation. Give Hicks and Arcia another shot next April. Let the other kids play the season at AA/AAA, see how they're coming along. Collect another high draft pick. I don't see much point in rushing them all up, so they can flounder as a group next year. It could set back the development of some of them, even.

 

This is by far the most intelligent post on this thread. Why is everyone in such a hurry? I don't like losing as much as the next guy but there is a plethora of talent in the A-AA department, they just need time. Like frightwig said, did any of you watch Arcia and Hicks this year? Did they look ready to step out and dominate?

 

I hope the Twins wait, I want to see Sano, Buxton, Rosario and co. up when they are ready. Does that mean a year or two of losing baseball? Quite possibly. Why rush them? And those of you who posted, "bring them all up and let's just give them all big deals, who cares about money".....really?

 

I honestly don't know what people expected this season. A team with few offensive weapons, a staff that's made up of cheap FA's and back of the rotation pieces. So many ideas of they should have spent so much on FA1 or FA2, but why? To make the team a little bit better? Play it out,

 

Play it out, test out the pieces that look done and let the rest marinate until done. I'll put up with a few losing seasons if the kids are anywhere close to be as good as their projections.

[Shane Wahl]

Buxton aside, that looks right. Hopefully.