Article: On 3rd Base Coaching Decisions

[John Bonnes]

You can view the page at http://twinsdaily.com/content.php?r=2112-On-3rd-Base-Coaching-Decisions

[h2oface]

I thought Hicks was much faster than I saw tonight sitting a bit above the Angel's dugout at Angel Stadium. It sure made him look silly to not try at all to make a competitive slide. Worse than silly. Made him look like he didn't care.

[glunn]

I thought Hicks was much faster than I saw tonight sitting a bit above the Angel's dugout at Angel Stadium. It sure made him look silly to not try at all to make a competitive slide. Worse than silly. Made him look like he didn't care.

 

I was sitting near you h2o and agree with you 100%. I hope that someone on the coaching staff speaks with Hicks about this.

 

But with all due respect to John, the impression of everyone in my section (including me) was that Hicks would likely have been safe if he had slid. It also seemed to me that he was not at full speed as he approached the plate.

[h2oface]

I was sitting near you h2o and agree with you 100%. I hope that someone on the coaching staff speaks with Hicks about this.

 

But with all due respect to John, the impression of everyone in my section (including me) was that Hicks would likely have been safe if he had slid. It also seemed to me that he was not at full speed as he approached the plate.

 

That is exactly what my son and I thought. Hicks just decided to not make a play and gave up on it. All kinds of runs have scored on a creative slide. It just looked pathetic and he really did pull up early and not even contest the plate. I like making the defense make a play. Sure, you may get thrown out, but more often than not the throw is not even close to the plate and you can score even it you would have been thrown out with a good throw. It is better to have tried than get stranded at third......... like tonight's first and third with no outs, and twice first and second.

[TheLeviathan]

I would suggest from what was shown on the broadcast that it looked like Hicks had zero chance of being safe, slide or not. So if John saw it on TV that might explain the difference.

[Seth Stohs]

Yeah, I don't mind aggressiveness at all. Depends on the situation, of course, and I didn't watch it (just listened) so I can't speak more to it than that. But I have no problem with aggressiveness in general. Make the other team make a couple of good throws.

[NC-Twins]

I disagree. Hicks had a good chance to be safe and from my view probably would have been with a decent slide. The catcher's arm was in motion upward from having to scoop the ball. Also, those sabermetric values don't describe how the Twins perform with runners at first and third. We hit a lot of ground balls.

 

I guess the biggest point I want to make is that we have not been hitting well and that we generally lack aggressiveness. Although it did not work out well for us in this situation because of what I would call poor base running, we still put a runner on second. Challenge the other team to make plays and be aggressive. I support Vavra's decision to send him. I am aghast that Hicks came into the plate like that. That shouldn't even happen in a high school game, much less a major league one. Sit his butt on the bench for playing like that.

[John Bonnes]

I was watching it on TV. I gotta say, I didn't think there was a chance he was safe. And I didn't think there was a chance he was going to be safe as he rounded 3rd base. It was even more clear to me as he approached the plate. The catcher had the ball, he was blocking the plate, Hicks was still several steps away.

 

It's interesting to me that people at the game had a different perception. Maybe there is something about the TV angles I'm missing.

[Gernzy]

Hicks could have tried to slide, but we have no way of knowing if he'd be safe or not. Would have been more exciting at least.

 

Speaking of Vavra, I think he's done a pretty good job at third. I can't think of many other times that he sent someone that he shouldn't have.

[Seth Stohs]

I think Vavra has done a very good job. He prepared so much as a hitting coach and it seems he's well prepared at 3B. He seems to position himself very well.

[Guest USAFChief]

I think the real issue with this play is the poor jump Hicksie got off second base. Even with the poor jump, it took an online throw and a good shorthop snag by the catcher to get an out. IMO sliding wouldn't have had any positive result, and with the catcher blocking the line, Hicksie was probably better off trying to speed by him on the run and figure out some way to touch the plate later.

 

 

Also, barring something unusual, Vavra should be sending a fast runner on a clean single to left pretty much every time. It's a fine line, but if you're never getting a runner tossed out at the plate, you're doing it wrong.

[NC-Twins]

I was watching it on TV....

The catcher had the ball, he was blocking the plate, Hicks was still several steps away.

 

I saw the game on TV, too. I would say the catcher was only sorta blocking the plate. It looks to me like an alley to the inner half of the plate was open. Hicks decelerated greatly in the last few steps. He was probably trying to decide whether to slide or take out the catcher and hesitated so long that he did neither. But, from the video replay, it is clear that the on deck batter is telling Hicks to slide in plenty of time for him to do so. Plus, Hicks makes two mistakes after he passes Vavra, who was well down the line. You can see from the replay that Hicks briefly turns to look to see where the ball was, presumably looking to see if the play was coming or if it was going to be cut off, but either way, he should've been expecting to slide from the crack of the bat and been looking to pick up the on deck batter for further instructions. After he looks back, he then cowers a bit as if he thinks he's going to be hit by the throw. This is when he starts to slow down. When the catcher controls the ball, he and the glove are high, leaving a nice little path for a low slide.

[Old Twins Cap]

HIcks plays a pretty mellow game of baseball. It looks cool when it works, but when it doesn't, he just comes across as someone who doesn't care about outcomes. He's a young kid. He could still change. But, we already have Mauer, who takes unemotional to a robotic level. Between the two of them might as well nod off during the game and read the boxscore.

[LimestoneBaggy]

Vavra made a bad judgment call sending the runner based upon the circumstances; it happens. Hicks made a bad judgment call (bad break) coupled with mental mistakes (looking to the ball, oddly slowing down near the plate, on deck batter), and what appears to be some lazy play (not sliding). Bad judgment calls happen, mental mistakes happen, the lazy mistake (if it was one) is more troubling from a coaching perspective. All these things can be coached and fixed. I'd be more worried if I saw continuous repeats from Hicks, but he appears to have these mistakes and then correct them when coached.

 

Should he have learned these things earlier, sure, but it's not like he's being Manny out there.

[nicksaviking]

I agree with Chief that the biggest issue was the jump.

 

Hicks had no chance at scoring and it he was in an awkward postion to do so. From my viewpoint (on my couch) the catcher was only partially blocking the line but he was up the basepath and the ball beat Hicks to the catcher. Hicks could have tried to slide under the tag, but then his slide would have still had to carry him 8-10 feet just to reach home plate. Hicks would have normally slid where he got tagged out, but to avoid the tag, he would have had to start the slide several more feet up the line, no way does a slide from there reach the plate and we would be making fun of him for coming up short.

[Rick Niedermann]

I think Vavra has done a very good job. He prepared so much as a hitting coach and it seems he's well prepared at 3B. He seems to position himself very well.

 

I agree completely. He's done a very nice job coaching 3rd. Much better then the last few years. Hicks should of slid. And with Angel Marquez making the call, you never know, he may of been called safe.

[Guest USAFChief]

 

Hicks had no chance at scoring and it he was in an awkward postion to do so. From my viewpoint (on my couch) the catcher was only partially blocking the line but he was up the basepath and the ball beat Hicks to the catcher. Hicks could have tried to slide under the tag, but then his slide would have still had to carry him 8-10 feet just to reach home plate. Hicks would have normally slid where he got tagged out, but to avoid the tag, he would have had to start the slide several more feet up the line, no way does a slide from there reach the plate and we would be making fun of him for coming up short.

 

I agree, and would add that had Hicks slid, 20 ft from the plate, and the catcher mishandled the shorthop even slightly, we'd be asking why Hicks slid and allowed the catcher time to recover and make the tag.

[NC-Twins]

I agree, and would add that had Hicks slid, 20 ft from the plate, and the catcher mishandled the shorthop even slightly, we'd be asking why Hicks slid and allowed the catcher time to recover and make the tag.

 

Not to beat a dead horse here, because it really doesn't matter, but the reasons that Hicks was still 8-10 feet from the plate (or 20) have everything to do with the original post, whose point was that Vavra made the mistake. I agree completely that Hicks got a bad jump, and that's something Vavra could have (or did) take into consideration. But, Hicks made three mistakes AFTER passing Vavra that may have made all the difference in the world despite his slow jump. In my opinion, that exonerates Vavra from blame.

 

Incidentally, is his slow jump related to his lack of base-stealing prowess? I think so. However, he seems to get good jumps on defense *most* of the time.

[jm3319]

HIcks plays a pretty mellow game of baseball. It looks cool when it works, but when it doesn't, he just comes across as someone who doesn't care about outcomes. He's a young kid. He could still change. But, we already have Mauer, who takes unemotional to a robotic level. Between the two of them might as well nod off during the game and read the boxscore.

 

If you'd rather sleep through the Hall of Fame career of the best Twin in recent memory, then by all means go for it. Wouldn't want greatness to get in the way of a nice nap.

[Kwak]

It sounds to me that this is a wakeup call to Hicks--don't assume and play to maximum effort. I also agree with Chief, if nobody is ever thrown out trying for an extra base, then you're not aggressive enough.

[Steve Lein]

HIcks plays a pretty mellow game of baseball. It looks cool when it works, but when it doesn't, he just comes across as someone who doesn't care about outcomes.

 

As a guy who has always been a Hicks backer, and watched him play quite a few games before he ever reached the majors, I can tell you it's not a situation where he "doesn't care about outcomes."

 

As you observe, it's his game.

 

What someone might take for "lackadaisical" play, is his form of confidence. He wants to be smooth with all of his movements on the baseball field and it is his natural form of athleticism.

 

This is why you'll see him catch fly balls on sort of a jog, instead of racing to get to the spot and camp under it. It's also why you've seen people comment on him "slowing up" or "not getting a good jump" on some fly balls.

 

Personally, when I played in the OF, I hated racing to the ball to get under it and camp unless I had to for setting up a throw, because that meant I was either going to take my eyes off the ball (and risk losing it), or the physical movement of sprinting would make my depth perception/ball-judgment harder to mesh correctly. It felt awkward, plus doing this cost me an ACL (though I did make the catch). It was better for me to keep my running pace and eyes focused on meeting the ball at the endpoint - in other words, much easier/natural to keep it as "smooth" as possible. Some can do the sprinting thing very well (and Hicks does when it's required), but it's not what everyone is going to do on every ball hit toward them.

 

Now, this doesn't necessarily comment on him for his pace toward home on this particular play which some people here have an issue with (kind of seemed like he tripped or something on his way home a little to me as well), but I would argue that he didn't have a chance from the get-go. Which is also why I would guess he didn't take off from second at the pace some of you seem to have expected (though I don't see what you're getting at here either). I'd call it a situation of bad judgement on the hit from Vavra - Which John is writing about. "A clean single to left" is not going to score a guy from 2B every time, even if the runner is Billy Hamilton. I'd guess most of the time a line-drive "clean single" to LF isn't going to get the runner home - especially one where it was hit rather well (not a "soft liner") and the LF-er picks it up on only one hop, like this one.

 

Aaaaand I've rambled.

[SpitefulRabbit617]

Man I wish they had these west coast games closer to the weekend, 9 pm start really only gives you a few innings to watch if ya work early. DVR just isnt the same if you can look up the boxscore.......

[TheLeviathan]

One additional thing to note is that according to fangraphs scouting reports, Schuck has a below average arm in terms of strength and accuracy. So when you couple that with the guy coming up after Dozier, I can see why he was sent.

 

Hicks had a bad jump on the hit and took a very round turn after third. If either of those are tightened up he probably slides in easily. As it stands, any throw within 5 feet of the plate and he was pegged with or without a slide IMO.

[AROG]

Hicks could have tried to slide, but we have no way of knowing if he'd be safe or not. Would have been more exciting at least.

 

Speaking of Vavra, I think he's done a pretty good job at third. I can't think of many other times that he sent someone that he shouldn't have.

 

When they showed the angle from behind you could see that Hicks was coming from the foul side of the line to angle his slide the from front side of home plate. The catcher was well to the foul side of the line. Hicks looked like he was starting to slide when the catcher swung quickly to the fair side of the plate.

 

Had Hicks slid he would have broken an ankle with the force of the catchers sudden movements. Hicks did his best impersonation of Domit and tried to not get hurt and almost hurt himself in the process.

 

Other then that, I loved the article.

[ThePuck]

Hicks could have tried to slide, but we have no way of knowing if he'd be safe or not. Would have been more exciting at least.

 

Speaking of Vavra, I think he's done a pretty good job at third. I can't think of many other times that he sent someone that he shouldn't have.

 

My issue has less to do with the time he sent someone he shouldn't than the time he didn't send someone he should. Too conservative. Need to force the issue more. Then again, being aggressive isn't exactly the coaches and upper management's ways.

[Thegrin]

This is an opportunity for Hicks needs to run the base-paths like his hair was on fire. Not only would he score on situations like this, but he would look good doing it.

[AROG]

It sounds to me that this is a wakeup call to Hicks--don't assume and play to maximum effort. I also agree with Chief, if nobody is ever thrown out trying for an extra base, then you're not aggressive enough.

 

I am going to assume much of you are also Vikings fans, if not just the casual one. Robert Smith was faster then Quadri Ismael! When people watched Robert Smith run, he looked slow and like he wasn't trying and didn't give any effort to his runs. People assume the same thing about Hicks. But when Smith ran down the sideline and people fell further and further behind him it was obvious.

 

Both Smith and Hicks run/ran with a long stride which, unless they are running next to someone or being timed, doesn't seem very fast at all.

 

I am not saying that he doesn't loaf it up (the play in New York where it sliced away from him) from time to time. But just consider that if he couldn't get to a normal ball, he probably was at full speed and wouldn't get there anyway.

[Riverbrian]

First off... I like aggressive baserunning. I get frustrated with careful station to station baseball. Putting pressure on the defense to make a throw and tag is the only way to play in my mind.

 

However... That doesn't mean suicidal either.

 

The throw was not a good throw... It was slightly off line and it was kind of loopie. My guess would be poor arm with Schuck based on that throw... However... that doesn't matter when looking at the play.

 

Vavra's mistake wasn't mathatical from a percentage standpoint. Vavra's mistake was not noticing or caring that Schuck had the ball and was into his crow hop as Hicks was touching third.

 

An average high school player could have made that throw. Ben Revere could have made that throw. Sending Hicks, Byron Buxton, Jose Reyes, Mike Trout, Emilio Bonafacio or anyone was suicidal.

 

If Shuck was still moving away from the throw while fielding it... Yeah... Send him because Schuck would have had to stop his momentum and set his feet before throwing. The time it takes to do that would have given Hicks half the distance depending on the mo he needed to stop.

 

Decisions to take the extra base should not be based on arm strength... They should be based on how the fielder is positioned when fielding. If he has the ball in his hands and cocked... and you haven't crossed third... It's stop sign time. Every MLB player can throw the ball faster than anybody can run.

 

That's right Revere can throw the ball faster than Ben Revere can run.

 

Vavra blew it... It happens... I forgive him.

 

Now... Once Vavra blows it and sends the runner.

 

Forget the slide... Hicks needed to PLOW the catcher. Show his coaches and teammates and fans that he can play the game hard and a catcher ain't getting in his way. If you don't plow the catcher... I wonder about you and I'm wondering about Hicks.

 

Yeah... You can get hurt... You can hurt running into outfield walls or swinging at an inside pitch. It's baseball... Play the game and play it hard. This ain't little league. Plow the catcher!!! I'm kinda pissed that he didnt.

 

The Twins lack this toughness in my opinion. Its about time somebody showed it.

[ltwedt]

Ha! Bottom Line -

 

*Twins third base coaches ever since Gardenhire have been HORRIBLE - Ulger???? Liddle??? Vavra?? Really?

 

* Hicks HAS to slide - any close play at the plate Hicks HAS to slide.

 

Mellow game? or not schooled enough to know when to slide.

[Kwak]

I am going to assume much of you are also Vikings fans, if not just the casual one. Robert Smith was faster then Quadri Ismael! When people watched Robert Smith run, he looked slow and like he wasn't trying and didn't give any effort to his runs. People assume the same thing about Hicks. But when Smith ran down the sideline and people fell further and further behind him it was obvious.

 

Both Smith and Hicks run/ran with a long stride which, unless they are running next to someone or being timed, doesn't seem very fast at all.

 

I am not saying that he doesn't loaf it up (the play in New York where it sliced away from him) from time to time. But just consider that if he couldn't get to a normal ball, he probably was at full speed and wouldn't get there anyway.

It boils down to the start and the finish--not just the middle. Early and fast start, and the best "curve" around 3B (not slowing down but running the curve like the 200M sprinters). It's more than just effort.