Hicks vs Span vs Revere

[dgwills]

I'm sorry, I'd bench a guy for breaking his foot so he can finish an at bat and ground into a double play.

 

You call it tough... I have a few other adjectives that I call it. It certainly wasn't fair to the rest of his team.

I would call it tough. Maybe not smart, but tough.

[jokin]

I'm sorry, I'd bench a guy for breaking his foot so he can finish an at bat and ground into a double play.

 

You call it tough... I have a few other adjectives that I call it. It certainly wasn't fair to the rest of his team.

 

You do realize the Phils had no one left on the bench? Right?

[Riverbrian]

I'm sorry, I'd bench a guy for breaking his foot so he can finish an at bat and ground into a double play.

 

You call it tough... I have a few other adjectives that I call it. It certainly wasn't fair to the rest of his team.

 

I can't tell if your serious or not... If not... Good one...

 

If you are serious... Check out the box score below. 13 Players used. The only Phillies option was replacing Ben with a pitcher and if you watch the replay... He got down the line decently.

 

Phillies players and management would not be questioning the fairness of it.

 

http://scores.espn.go.com/mlb/boxscore?gameId=330713222&teams=chicago-white-sox-vs-philadelphia-phillies

[Oldgoat_MN]

How Close Ben Revere Has Come | FanGraphs Baseball

 

Jeff Sulivan at Fangraphs wrote a pretty damn funny piece about Revere's inability to hit a HR.

 

This quote from Revere got me:

 

“I went back to look at what I like to do. I looked at things in the minor leagues to see how my set-up was because I had more power then. Now it kind of faded off.”

 

Anyone who missed this article nicksaviking referred to should check it out.

 

My favorite line was:

The ESPN Home Run Tracker has no record of Ben Revere existing.

[jokin]

Yes, it should. That's what I said. But the range he had in RF blew other RFs out of the water, cause he has CF range when most RFs, well, don't. Got to remember who he was being compared to for his UZR, so we have to take that into count and the difference was sizable and certainly more important overall, than arm.

 

His weak arm didn't knock down his UZR enough though, it's why I said I hope they look at putting a bit more importance on arm.

 

That's all well and good, it still doesn't account for the wildly different year-on-year discrepancies in the other measures I pointed out.

[Thegrin]

Hicks is coming along nicely.

 

 

Hicks has the most complete impressive tool set of the 3. I don't worry about his D and If he can figure it out at the plate... We will forget about Revere and Span real quick.

 

I've forgotten Span and Revere already. Besides, Hicks will be playing RF as soon as Buxton comes up.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I can't tell if your serious or not... If not... Good one...

 

If you are serious... Check out the box score below. 13 Players used. The only Phillies option was replacing Ben with a pitcher and if you watch the replay... He got down the line decently.

 

Phillies players and management would not be questioning the fairness of it.

 

Chicago White Sox vs. Philadelphia Phillies - Box Score - July 13, 2013 - ESPN

 

I was not aware that there was no one left on the bench.. I'll retract my statement. The problem as I see it is that too many players do that type of thing in the name of tough and it handicaps the team... We've seen that happen here in MN on many occasions.

[ashbury]

I'm sorry, I'd bench a guy for breaking his foot so he can finish an at bat and ground into a double play.

 

You call it tough... I have a few other adjectives that I call it. It certainly wasn't fair to the rest of his team.

 

Like Brian, I am curious if you just miswrote this, with the inadvertent implication he broke his foot on purpose ("so he can"), or meant that you'd bench him for foolishly risking further injury by carrying on. If as was stated later, there was no one (but a pitcher?) to put in his place, it's an example of needing full information before trying to judge.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I understand where diehard is coming from... The athlete toughness thing is overplayed.

 

If you hurt yourself and become 60% of the player you were before the injury, you're hurting the team by continuing to drag your carcass out there every day. You're a below replacement level player, not to mention that it often takes longer to recover from an injury when you keep playing on it. It's a valid point to bring up and one that I don't think we talk about enough.

 

In this case, it doesn't really apply because there was no one left on the bench but the argument is a valid one.

[Guest USAFChief]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that nobody, including Revere, knew his foot was broke at the time. He fouled a ball off his foot...that hurts like hell. Just like a hundred other times he's fouled a ball off his foot. 99 other times he didn't break his foot, he "toughed it out" and stayed on the field.

 

Like he tried to do this time, with the added incentive that he knew there were no bench players left.

 

This has nothing to do with "playing through an injury." This is "dang, that hurts. Give me a second here...what's the count? Let's go, play ball."

 

The break was discovered later.

 

In the larger sense, you want players who will play through minor injuries, and play through some pain. If they didn't, nobody would ever play 150 games a year. It's a fine line to walk as to when the situation becomes so bad the team is better off with a lesser player in the lineup.

 

I'm with Bri on this...I'd much rather have players on my team who want to play if at all possible, and leave it to management to have the sense to say "no."

 

And, by the way, management is also responsible for having backups in place who you can stick in the lineup and have them perform well enough so you don't feel added pressure to get the regular back in the lineup before you really should.

[Beezer07]

Why are we comparing Hicks, Revere, and Span? One is a rookie who never played in AAA, and the others have been in the majors for multiple years.

[ashbury]

Why are we comparing Hicks, Revere, and Span? One is a rookie who never played in AAA, and the others have been in the majors for multiple years.

 

The reason to compare them is obvious. You could also invalidate a comparison by saying that one has little power, one has no power, and one has a lot of potential for power; but I don't see a reason to squelch conversation on that account either.

 

/ I didn't list them in the same order as in the thread title, but hopefully that didn't obscure my point

[greengoblinrulz]

Why are we comparing Hicks, Revere, and Span? One is a rookie who never played in AAA, and the others have been in the majors for multiple years.

Why ever compare players then??? How few are gonna have exact ages/experience

[Brad Swanson]

Hicks would have to OPS ~1.200 over the second half of the season to raise his OPS to .900 for the season. That would put him in the conversation in recent years. Safe to say he won't be remotely considered.

 

A .900 OPS from a rookie is pretty rare. In fact, only 11 rookies in the last 20 years have posted that figure, with at least 400 plate appearances.

 

For single seasons, From 1993 to 2012, Has rookie status (by modern standards), (requiring onbase_plus_slugging?.900 and At least 400 plate appearances), sorted by greatest On-Base Plus Slugging: Results - Baseball-Reference.com

 

Plus, the AL ROY candidates are underwhelming to say the least. I think he can still win the award with a strong second half.

[greengoblinrulz]

Revere broke his ankle yesterday so he's out a while.

Span has been moved down to 7th in batting order today

[launchingthrees]

Regarding Hicks' ROY candidacy if his numbers end up decent he is putting together a nice highlight reel of catches and now his throw that will stick in the mind of voters and could possibly put him over the top if it's a close race.

 

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not. Nothing is going to stick out in the mind of voters because he won't receive a single vote for ROY

[notoriousgod71]

Hicks would have to OPS ~1.200 over the second half of the season to raise his OPS to .900 for the season. That would put him in the conversation in recent years. Safe to say he won't be remotely considered.

 

 

Why does hie need to post a .900 OPS to be considered for ROY. This year's crop of rookies is not having the same impact as previous seasons. Unless someone catches fire it will be a Bobby Crosby ROY situation.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Like Brian, I am curious if you just miswrote this, with the inadvertent implication he broke his foot on purpose ("so he can"), or meant that you'd bench him for foolishly risking further injury by carrying on. If as was stated later, there was no one (but a pitcher?) to put in his place, it's an example of needing full information before trying to judge.

 

To restate what I poorly stated, I'd have benched him for staying in the game with a broken foot, risking further injury, and grounding into a double play*** But, as others have stated, there was no one left to replace him with, which is a completely different scenario.

[diehardtwinsfan]

The reason to compare them is obvious. You could also invalidate a comparison by saying that one has little power, one has no power, and one has a lot of potential for power; but I don't see a reason to squelch conversation on that account either.

 

/ I didn't list them in the same order as in the thread title, but hopefully that didn't obscure my point

 

I look at it more in terms of what they've contributed to their respective teams... Interestingly enough, based on their stats, they've been pretty similar players, which is really nice considering we turned Span and Revere into Meyer, May, and Worley. And from a potential standpoint, Hicks looks like he encompasses most of the best tools of Span and Revere with significantly more power.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I honestly can't tell if you're joking or not. Nothing is going to stick out in the mind of voters because he won't receive a single vote for ROY

 

In less than half a season, he has hit 8 HRs and his OPS has climbed to .633 while playing an up-the-middle position.

 

If he stays healthy and inches that OPS toward .700, he WILL get votes.

[Beezer07]

Why ever compare players then??? How few are gonna have exact ages/experience

 

I'm not saying never compare them, but one is a brand new rookie, and the others aren't. It's not like we're choosing between a 10-year, 7-year, and 5-year vet.

[ThePuck]

Why does hie need to post a .900 OPS to be considered for ROY. This year's crop of rookies is not having the same impact as previous seasons. Unless someone catches fire it will be a Bobby Crosby ROY situation.

 

Iglesias, Franklin and three or four relievers have a pretty good jump on Hicks, IMO. I'm a big Hicks fan, but I think he'll have to really come on strong to win it. I imagine if he keeps improving he may get some votes, but right now he's clearly on the outside looking in.

[launchingthrees]

In less than half a season, he has hit 8 HRs and his OPS has climbed to .633 while playing an up-the-middle position.

 

If he stays healthy and inches that OPS toward .700, he WILL get votes.

 

No he won't. But if you'd like to pm me about making a bet I'll give you all the action you want.

 

I'll take the under on 1 first place vote for ROY.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Oh, so now it's first place votes. Have you looked at the AL rookie class this season? It's underwhelming and Hicks will have counting stats in his favor. He'll get votes if he keeps hitting. I seriously doubt he'll win it but he'll garner some votes.

[mikecgrimes]

How many votes will he really though if he finishes .225 with 18 HR's. I really like his future but unless the average gets above .240 or he hit's 15 second half HR's he's going to be an easy guy to not vote for.

[Brock Beauchamp]

How many votes will he really though if he finishes .225 with 18 HR's. I really like his future but unless the average gets above .240 or he hit's 15 second half HR's he's going to be an easy guy to not vote for.

 

Which is why I said that OPS needs to continue creeping toward .700. Over his last 80 PAs, he's been hitting around .275. Basically, he needs to keep doing that all season before he gets any consideration.

[Red Holstein]

I'm still a big Span fan, but I liked the Span and Revere trades and I think in two or three years Hicks is easily better than either of them.

 

Ryan deserves credit. Two great trades. Hicks is a future all star. I still think Manimal will be good for us too.

[launchingthrees]

No he won't. But if you'd like to pm me about making a bet I'll give you all the action you want.

 

I'll take the under on 1 first place vote for ROY.

 

Oh, so now it's first place votes. Have you looked at the AL rookie class this season? It's underwhelming and Hicks will have counting stats in his favor. He'll get votes if he keeps hitting. I seriously doubt he'll win it but he'll garner some votes.

 

We put that to bed really quick. I mean the hilarity of discussing Aaron Hicks as a ROY candidate just illustrates how far there is to reach to pull a positive out of this season.

[Red Holstein]

Revere broke his foot.

He knew the bench had been used. He waived the trainers off.

Finished the at bat.

Grounded into a game ending double play.

He ran hard down the line on this broken foot.

 

Revere is tough!!! He can play for my team... Any day!!!

The exact opposite of Span. They'd have had to carry Span off on a stretcher. I had really started to sour on Span by the end of his Twins tenure.

 

I still remember Revere's play at the plate against the Indians in 2011. He literally slammed the back of his head on the ground in the home plate collision. Got up and walked away. Didn't miss any time. He got hit in the face by a pitch in the minors. Didn't he fracture a cheek bone? Barely missed any time. Tough as nails. Either of those incidents would have shelved Span for months.

[jokin]

The exact opposite of Span. They'd have had to carry Span off on a stretcher. I had really started to sour on Span by the end of his Twins tenure.

 

I still remember Revere's play at the plate against the Indians in 2011. He literally slammed the back of his head on the ground in the home plate collision. Got up and walked away. Didn't miss any time. He got hit in the face by a pitch in the minors. Didn't he fracture a cheek bone? Barely missed any time. Tough as nails. Either of those incidents would have shelved Span for months.

 

Great points, which is why I really like baseball guys with football backgrounds.

 

The comedy of errors over some of Span's injuries, finally culminating in his inordinate fear of an MRI machine really hit a sour note. Remember Pujols coming back from his broken wrist injury in about 15 days? That probably would have been a season-ender for Denard (and I regrettably say this as a pretty strong supporter of Span's time here with the Twins).